The Science of Attraction

    In this podcast we talked about what attracted us to people.

    What happened to attraction over the span of a relationship and what killed it or kept it alive.

    We answered whether it can be re-ignited and much more.

    Transcript

    [00:00:00.835] 

    Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. So tonight, we’re looking at the science of attraction. What is it that makes us attracted to one person and not to another? So you’ve been in the breakout rooms.

    [00:00:30.215] 

    I think you’ll find you’re all Meeteetse. So just tell me if you want to join, if you’ve got something to say. But so we were looking in the breakout rooms about who you who you like. If you could say anyone or spend the night with anyone, who would you choose? And then looking beyond that, what was there that attracted you to that person? So does anyone want to share what they found from their breakout rooms? Yes, we liked different people, but we all found that we were attracted to the animal magnetism and their presence.

    [00:01:14.415] 

    OK, so animal magnetism as in. Some of them, yeah, their presence really we describe them as being confident and having a distinct presence about them. OK, I think I could add to that because I was in the same group, I don’t mind bringing it to the floor, I think is an example in nineteen fifty eight. So I’ve got an interesting thing with regards to dates. So in nineteen fifty eight, if anyone remembers, in the fifties there was a very attractive actress who I found attractive and my grandfather found attractive when he was in his 20s, Elizabeth Taylor.

    [00:01:49.535] 

    So she was in a film called Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. If anyone remembers a nineteen fifties in nineteen fifty eight with Paul Newman. And on the other side, Paul Newman was a very handsome man in the nineteen fifties, but I think Elizabeth Taylor would be one that struck out for me and her personality, in a sense a stage persona. I think Elizabeth Taylor from the 1950s.

    [00:02:13.015] 

    I think anyone else and also I’m interested in looking at is there a divide like any distinctions between between gender attraction and genders?

    [00:02:30.505] 

    I think I’ve read it before that men tend to go off, they have more visual. Well, I must say that I agree with Betty’s group, the Animal Magnetism, for me, I would spend a night with Idris Elba and AJ and have gotten from Bollywood movies and Indian fans and Bollywood fans. I would spend the night with them when I want to get intellectual where maybe I’ll go elsewhere. But yeah, those two, I’m OK. And so is it the looks.

    [00:03:05.375] 

    Is it the character they play? Is it something else?

    [00:03:10.625] 

    Well, in the carrot they can play different characters, but essentially there is something about them. There’s presence the way they carry themselves. There’s confidence. And you you don’t know this for a fact, but you think that they may be interesting just to have a conversation with, but I’m not expecting them to be professor, you know, whatever.

    [00:03:38.115] 

    That’s not what I’m looking for. I’m sorry if not for one night of the week. Yes.

    [00:03:46.845] 

    You just want them to look pretty for tonight. Is that it? Oh, yes.

    [00:03:50.865] 

    Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And I’d love to be entertained. I mean, it doesn’t mean anything, you know, it’s just that that is what I would like for that excitement then.

    [00:04:04.035] 

    Oh, no, I’ll have the proper conversations, you know, the deep the deep look into your eyes or get into my brain kind of thing. Now, not for one night. I like Dustin Hoffman. I like his voice. Actually, it’s got really OK. What is it about his voice. I don’t know. It’s just I’m not quite sure she. I don’t know what it is, he’s just. There’s a sense there is a sense of depth about his voice when you just get a feeling that he could talk about anything and have something really interesting to say about it, and you can always close your eyes.

    [00:04:49.235] 

    Sorry, and you can always close your eyes if it’s just the voice. Well, listen, not just know. I know. I’m just I’m just joking.

    [00:04:59.175] 

    Not in our group.

    [00:05:00.635] 

    We had we completely contradict what you were saying. The male janosz was definitely into the intellect, whereas Frances and myself, it was more like the attractive body, etc.. And Frances chose Chris O’Dowd, who I Googled to find out who he was. He’s an actor. And I had to check. We looked really attractive on my phone, but I have to check his height because height is really important to me. And I know that sounds silly.

    [00:05:35.915] 

    And and so height was really important, but Janosz definitely went for the the the brains rather than the the attractive body, etc.. And my mind was Adrian Dumba from the line of duty. Yeah, that’s okay.

    [00:05:53.495] 

    Thank you. And what are what was it about your dumba?

    [00:05:59.265] 

    It’s his voice, and we both were talking about the Irish accents, so it was the Irish accent and it just seems to have a lovely way with him. And he’s tall, obviously, and I hate to say it, but he reminds me a bit of my dad. So what more than somebody might well read into that. OK, thank you.

    [00:06:22.245] 

    And Granddad, he. I am sorry about that. Well, just because the policy is not working, yeah, the reason that we I was in it was interesting because the girls have completely different expectations. And then I was really interested because they tend to go for the lost and a bit of provocation for a night. And I was the complete opposite. I can’t even if I said to you, you’re going to go on a date with the person, I don’t want to waste it by drooling all over them.

    [00:07:01.665] 

    I want no intellectual conversation with them. I want to get to know him a really deep level, but on a on a nice, calm, easy conversation. But I want to get in a more intuitive level. I don’t just look at it because you’ve got fancy nails. It’s all irrelevant. And what’s the point? It’s a waste of my time to spend time with them, rather sit and watch Netflix. So it was just interesting being someone else’s perception of it.

    [00:07:30.765] 

    I need to be intellectually stimulating up and out with pretty girls with no brains. It doesn’t work because you’re going to form a relationship with someone that has to you have to be stimulated in all aspects. So, yeah, if you’re on a date with someone possibly doing it, what’s the point of even attentive? They’re not they’re emotionally or mentally stimulating because it might be physically attractive. It doesn’t mean anything. Does it really just go buy a magazine or something?

    [00:08:00.945] 

    But if you’re looking for a relationship to gain some sort of spiritual emotional wisdom from someone, so you want to choose your time carefully. So it was interesting how my but my preferences were completely different from can I just stop you there? And just to ask if it’s not a relationship, if it’s just pure physical attraction, would you still go for the intellect overlooks? I’ve been a really beautiful women. But that’s got nothing about and I’m not saying all women are like that, but they literally have nothing about them.

    [00:08:38.085] 

    It’s straight up and out of office looking women who are more bouncy and got more personality. It’s not about anything. It’s about someone is just a nice person, a mature, emotionally mature person. It’s like I’m 40. I’m not playing games with my child. Emotionally immature, 40 years old. I’m married, by the way, so I’m not looking for anything. I found that. I found the physical age. That’s why I’m married. But the thing is, relationships have to be built on something or it’s pointless.

    [00:09:10.215] 

    It can’t be built on lost because it looks fade. I’m not as handsome as I was 10 years ago and then another 10 years going to be even uglier. That’s just life. And unfortunately, you have to find someone that you’ve got a deep, deep connection with because that’s what it’s all about. It’s about creation and procreate and being with someone when you get old. So, yes, so so normally I would agree with you.

    [00:09:38.745] 

    But what we’re doing tonight is just looking at attraction and trying to separate attraction from relationship so that I have someone who knows something I don’t know someone that it’s got more I can learn from. OK, I’d want to be with someone like that, OK? OK, thank you. And so how.

    [00:10:03.745] 

    Yeah, I was just wondering. So is the attraction the same thing as connection? Meaning that the chapter just spoke to find a way to connect with these women despite that outwardly great appearance. So. Yeah, is attraction and connections nominals. No connection is when you connected to someone, but attraction is what draws you to someone. So for attraction, how we use attraction as a definition. The definition of attraction we’re using is is like magnetic attraction. So, yeah.

    [00:10:47.825] 

    So it’s what attracts you because the force of attraction is attract or repel. So it’s what attracts you. And I think it’s Irene where you’re going to have some say.

    [00:11:00.755] 

    I quite like confidence, confidence. Tom Hardy for me, I think he’s just such a confident actor. And also I quite like talents like musicians and even like people with power tools. You know, guys are power tools. I know what it is. I just the command or the mastery, you know, like I’ve got this kind of thing, you know, we’re looking at attraction and quite like, you know, guitarists who just get really into the music and does not about looks.

    [00:11:34.295] 

    It’s about seeing how much pleasure they’re given off to the audience and also themselves. And yeah. So that’s what I like, I think. OK, thank you. Anyone else? All mine were, I think, started on physical attraction because the celebrities and you can only go off their TV or film personality. What you see generally with some of them and is that I’m not sure and fans are all just me now towards the end of the conversation, because you got that one minute show, three with Michelle Keegan, Margot Robbie and Amanda hold of and some of them.

    [00:12:28.195] 

    I have seen what they portray as their personal Magaro with a couple of films I’ve seen. And yes, she’s a bit cheeky, a bit full. Well, that could just be a character she’s portraying. But yeah, looking at it from me I it but I picked one other because I will spend a few seconds left money to help me out. The other person is briefly Catherine Ryan, who’s a comedian. So I’ve seen her a few times, I think she can be quite funny, but I’ve seen another side of her personality where she had a bit of fun that she joined in the Lip-Sync show.

    [00:13:02.295] 

    So she was portrayed do the best singing, better dancing. So I saw that you don’t normally see. And she dressed up as well. We don’t always see her dressed up. So she was also dressed up, which I don’t always see. So she’s funny. So she was taking a few boxes. But yeah, I can imagine quite a few guys who say yes. Michelle Keegan sexaholics.

    [00:13:23.785] 

    OK, thank you. That um, there’s something I’ve noticed on social media as well is and I just want to say thank you for being brave enough to to put out that dash, but a lot of men tend to not want to.

    [00:13:45.525] 

    So like you’ll see, I’ve seen quite a few social media posts and women are quite aggressive to certain men. Like I remember seeing Chadwicks, the body coach and women and all these kind of things of like that. They found him attractive and they were imagining him being with them in the kind of comments out there. And kind of and whereas I’ve seen similar posts where like a similar female celebrity or something has done something like that and men have been very restrained.

    [00:14:22.545] 

    They might be different in messages, but socially, I feel. A lot of men feel they’re not able to express, like, pure physical attraction, I don’t know if any men feel that way, that they have to show more depth to them or something like that. But but that’s kind of something I noticed. So. Did anyone else have comment, I think maybe.

    [00:14:58.045] 

    Yeah, well, my choice was Elon Musk and because I would simply really enjoy talking to him and listening to his ideas, I listen to his podcast with Joe Rogan, and it lasted for like four hours. And it was great in my group with Carlin. Richard, we did all agree that it was about intelligence. But towards the end, we did say that it’s quite self-explanatory for people to say that they’re attracted to intelligence is is really a no brainer because, well, obviously, you wouldn’t be able to spend more than 15 minutes with just a pretty person because they would have nothing else to say.

    [00:15:44.655] 

    But to add that to add to that, I would say that looks would still be important. And I think I did express it for my personal life that when people say that I’m only attracted to intelligence and nothing else, I think they’re massive hypocrites because we all choose to how a person looks as well, even though we might not admit it ever. But I personally think that and wanting to talk to someone is a no brainer and wanting to have a nice conversation.

    [00:16:19.425] 

    But also you might want to see a nice person as well, especially if that person’s intelligent. They would want to talk to person, to another intelligent person. I think it’s self-explanatory. Rob, do you think it’s a bit of an age thing? My next door neighbors are racing car driver and he’s getting a little bit older and he’d always have the Lycra girl on his arm when he was out with his mates, etc.. And this has been going on for years.

    [00:16:47.315] 

    You know, I’ve met so many girls. They are absolutely gorgeous. And then recently he’s come to me and I have coffee with him and we’ll be talking for hours. And then he suddenly said, he says, I’m getting to the age now where I want to have somebody who can have a deep conversation with because these girls, they can’t talk about, like, you know, his type of music, et cetera, et cetera. So I think as he’s getting older, he’s realizing that maybe he does need a little bit more than the conversation than the looks and no longer needs to impress his friends.

    [00:17:20.705] 

    The other thing is over Christmas, I went through a bad time really with my partner. So I went on dating sites. I don’t know if any of you’ve tried them and you could get even in covid I could get you know, you could get a date every Saturday, every Sunday. It would only be a walk because that’s what we were restricted to, etc.. And obviously the height was the issue. So every Saturday I’d go out, you know, with a particular man that I’d met on the dating site during the week.

    [00:17:49.205] 

    And then Sunday I’d have another war. I don’t know what the neighbors were thinking anyways. So then all ages and and but and we’d walk around and you talk because that’s all you’re be doing. And if they and there was some really lovely people you could have conversations with, but I would go and talk to my lady friends that would be walking with during the week. And I’d just say I’d love to, you know, keep going with this guy, etc.

    [00:18:18.455] 

    but there’s no physical attraction. I could not get into bed with this man, et cetera, et cetera, and no chemistry. Put that word out there as well. I don’t know what anybody else feels about that. So going back to what Rosamma, I think was saying about I think you need a little bit of physical attraction before you start the conversation. Maybe just put out there. Yeah, OK. Thank you for that. Yeah. So what we’re looking at is attraction and so.

    [00:18:51.995] 

    The quality of a relationship is about connection, and so what we’re trying to look at is the initial attraction, but also the fact of you may have connection. And so Esther Perel says that in a long term relationship. The attraction dies because of familiar familiarity. So we’re looking at what does it take to keep the attraction for a relationship. So we’re looking at what is an attraction and then what does it take to keep that attraction alive? Do you want to jump in?

    [00:19:37.255] 

    Cantante. And the first thing that we can use is Travis, I can’t because otherwise I feel like I know that’s the thing. Do not be illusions. I am not a grunt, OK? I’m a lot younger, but yeah, humor is the best one because you say you can laugh people to death if you if you’ve got banter and it’s great you got a relationship and you’re constantly, you know, my my favorite thing I get I’m married.

    [00:20:06.225] 

    Right. So and when I go on holiday with Mrs. Merkel abroad, there’s nothing better than there are people watching. And it’s just little stories of about people that we can say we just take it and laugh. And so much so cume is the main thing is it’s being able to just laugh all the time and not take life too seriously because no one gets out alive anyway. So when you saw that you can just have a laugh with all the time, it’s great.

    [00:20:37.305] 

    It’s brilliant because that connection and that attraction gets stronger. So I’ve been married for like four, five years, but I’m in a relationship and I love her more than I’ve ever loved that because she looks she looks more attractive because I’m more connected to her that she’d say the same thing because she brings up something in me and I bring out something in there that other people can’t necessarily do. It’s like last but I said deep, meaningful relationship. I don’t mean let’s get into people’s psyche.

    [00:21:06.975] 

    I mean, let’s just be open and learn. And remember, relationships are built. They’re not they’re not yet. You can’t just because it’ll just you feel these relationships, they just the end before is because it’s ended. And with the social media as well, like Tinder and all that nonsense, there’s so much temptation out there. So if you haven’t got a good connection with someone, you could look somewhere else. You’re going to be tempted, aren’t you?

    [00:21:37.215] 

    I definitely think it’s important. You know, so many people say that the funds, the funds gone, the excitement is gone. So but it seems like not taking stuff too seriously. But what about when life does get serious, when we children or when there are really big issues that you need to deal with? Because having like. It could be taken from what you said, that you kind of being carefree, but there are times when someone needs someone to be able to deal with a big issue.

    [00:22:15.045] 

    So be interesting about how you’ve dealt with that all the time. The trouble is, is very stressful business. So I’m constantly being things popping up, which would go if if you didn’t laugh, you cry. So again, it’s all about perception is how you look at it. Nothin’s good or bad. It’s a perception that makes it so. So something happens in our life like, oh my God, this is how you perceive it. You can say, well, this coronaviruses affected my business.

    [00:22:42.395] 

    Now a lot of businesses have struggled from it. But again, it’s perception said, well, let’s look at it in a different way. Let’s look at a more healthier way. I said, well, what can I do about it? So I invest in investing Croner Mascot’s. I’ll make it up to 40. So it’s not about this is what you when you when you’re open and honest and you’ve got a good relationship with yourself, which is the most important relationship you can have if you know yourself.

    [00:23:06.545] 

    And it’s very difficult to to have problems because the problems don’t exist. It’s just the perception of it. We make it a problem. Mm hmm.

    [00:23:18.845] 

    Could I make a small one minute point speaking to this gentleman? Is that OK? Yeah. Yeah, sure. I’m speaking to the floor. I’ll speak to the floor so I can’t speak about my generation. So I was born in 1984, so I’m part of the millennial generation. And now we’ve got a generation above me, which is Janszen, which is a new generation. But from my perspective, when I was growing up from the mid to late 90s, looking at attraction, that’s what I’m about, because I remember the late 90s, I’m a bum and I found her attractive.

    [00:23:44.345] 

    What you’re not big breakfast when I was growing up in the mid to late 90s and that. But thing is, for me, attraction aside, I think friendship is really, really important. I think the whole let’s just get really basic here. I think for me, having a friendship with somebody else is important for me. I don’t think I will ever marry. I don’t really want that commitment because I have a lot of freedom. I can do what I want to do.

    [00:24:07.325] 

    I have my autonomy. The important thing is I have my autonomy. And I think for me it’s a lot about self care, because in this world we’re always thinking about other people and we don’t think about ourselves in a sense of self care, about thinking about ourselves and look at say, oh, you know, what might look after yourself from that. You know, we say that we have that point. So I think self care is important.

    [00:24:26.645] 

    Friendships can always last a lifetime. Marriage is not a certainty. And from my generation as a millennial, there might be some millennials out there like, yeah, we want to get married. But I think for my generation, there’s no necessity to get married, you know what I mean? Because I have a lot of freedom and autonomy. So I prefer like friendships and if that makes any sense. But hey, that’s just what I think. That’s just my opinion.

    [00:24:49.475] 

    OK, thank you. Travis, did you did you want to finish off or buy alcohol for Burma?

    [00:24:57.115] 

    This subject so vast. And Ali, you’re right, there may be people that will change, like you’re the same generation as me. So we were thought, remember what the world was like before the dinosaurs come in. I mean, before this, the world shifted because the world is completely different how it was in the 80s, even the 90s. So people’s perception, it’s like relationships don’t mean anything to these young kids. Now, 15, 16, 17 year olds, what is a relationship?

    [00:25:25.055] 

    A relationship is next. Next, next, next, next. You don’t have to you don’t have to make an effort relationship. You just almost objects have lost. And this Instagram and all the stupidness that people pull this makeup and lipstick. So it looks like this. Well, it’s. Is that so it looks like something and then make the cleavage big and tie and big eyebrows and keep full of makeup and make their eyes big so they look more like childlike.

    [00:25:55.565] 

    It’s like what are you doing, what are you doing? And then they wonder why they’re not happy and they feel insecure. More young people commit suicide. That is ludicrous. And it’s because they’ve got it all wrong. It’s stupid asking questions like what is the attraction is not. Then that’s just you look at something, oh, I like. It’s attractive to look at people that fear. We need to know what else to say. Don’t judge a book by its cover.

    [00:26:26.105] 

    And. Yeah, but Ali, what you said it’s self development. Yeah, I see. My sister’s really good looking and it drives me mad because she loves to gravitate towards and yet she always goes out with the wrong love because she, because she’s good looking. They think she’s the bimbo, she’s intelligent with both of these idiots because he treats like rubbish, because she’s and she pulls out their insecurities because she’s pretty and all the men look at her is making her point fails.

    [00:26:55.325] 

    Boyfriends feel insecure, then they start taking out on her. So they’ll be playing psychological mind games, the. Because there is also. OK. All right, thanks, Travis. Just one second, Dayanara got his hand up, but you’ll be next.

    [00:27:18.775] 

    I for myself, because you are not good at liberating. So, yeah, so basically what I was going to say was I have to I agree with lead and that everybody does evaluate each other on attraction as well. I think it’ll be funny to say, oh, well, they are a funny person or they’re an intelligent person and now there’s a certain level of physical attraction. You have to have that if you’re talking about a longer term relationship. And yes, then you have to be able to connect with that person.

    [00:27:55.225] 

    Obviously, that brings in more people. Well, I think that if that initial attraction isn’t there, then you can be friends with that person by all means. But it’s really just going to stay as friends. If you are talking about something a more deeper, perhaps a romantic relationship, there has to be the physical attraction. Otherwise, there’s there’s nowhere else to go to go other than being friends. And if you’re lucky, people may even find The X Factor a bit like what Travis was saying, that there is such a good connection between the two of them that there is that magic that happens between the two of them.

    [00:28:33.525] 

    Maybe you can’t put your hand on it. But I mean, from my point of view, I think sometimes it can be I mean, the things kind of things that does for me sometimes accents the voice of the woman that you and I can explain why certain accents just sound very nice to my ears. I have to say, a certain type of look is attractive to me. And I’m not talking about someone being dropped that gorgeous by all means.

    [00:29:00.665] 

    I mean, obviously there are women and you look at them and you go, well, you know, but I don’t think any man necessarily go out and see that kind of woman. But there everybody has a minimal attractiveness expectation. And then, of course, then you expect the personality behind it too much, whatever it is that you’re expecting. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, IRA. Just just to be clear what we’re talking about, we talked a lot of times about connection and what develops the relationship.

    [00:29:34.795] 

    But so we’re talking about you can have a great relationship that turns into a friendship and becomes passionless. And then people, because there’s no sexual attraction, the relationship loses something and then people start to look elsewhere. So what we’re looking at is not just what attracts someone, it’s just what attracts someone, but also what keeps that passionate sense of of relationship. So we’re going to go to Diane and then I’m going to summarize some bits so that we can move on and we can look through some of the other research and develop on this as to how you can keep the attraction alive.

    [00:30:13.195] 

    Diane. Well, I just wanted to say when I spoke to the people in my room, it was really quite interesting that we all did fancy we all did fancy someone that was very attractive. And we all agreed that the people we liked was very attractive. But an attraction does matter. But before you go to any kind of connection, you’ve got to have some attraction. But that’s what people think. But when I was 19, I was badly burned in a fire and I have a quarter of my face grafted, which isn’t so obvious now, but it certainly was for about twenty five years of my life.

    [00:30:53.215] 

    But I have to say that I have had my fair share of partners despite being desperate and I was disfigured. I am disfigured. You can say I’ve got bitterness, you would say, but I have had my fair share. So somehow or other it although attraction does a physical attraction matters. I think it goes a lot more than that. Otherwise I don’t think I have had as much good fortune. Maybe I don’t need to describe it because I’ve had my fair share of stunning looking partners and ordinary looking partners.

    [00:31:34.435] 

    And I’ve had about the department that was I had a boyfriend who once dealt with a year who quite frankly, I didn’t fancy at all when I first met him. But by the time we only finished because he was 20 years younger than me and he wanted a family and I just couldn’t give him a family. And we otherwise I’m sure we wouldn’t have finished. I’m sure of it. But I didn’t have fun at all at the beginning. And to me, when we finished, he was the best looking fella since sliced bread because he was such a lovely man.

    [00:32:07.045] 

    So whilst attraction well, physical attraction matters, I think there must be more. There’s a lot more than that going on. Otherwise it wouldn’t have gone. I wouldn’t have had you know, and I do know the people in similar boat. I mean, you know, people with physical disabilities, visual differences to sort of get together and talk about these things. And a lot of us say something very similar. OK, thank you, Diane. Okay, so really when if we look at the science, what should we look at?

    [00:32:45.925] 

    Like what if we’re going to look first at beauty? Beauty tends to be symmetry. It tends to be so, for example, if both your eyes are the same, if, you know, if there’s a sense of symmetry in the face, it’s if things are in proportion, it’s signs of EUW, signs of health. But really, if you really summed up what made someone really stunning, it’s simply a familiarity. So if you took 100 people and took their faces and morph them into one face.

    [00:33:30.945] 

    That would be the most attractive face. So it’s someone that’s not that different from everyone else. So we kind of look at Tom Hardy and Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie and Michelle Keegan and bumped him as being. Like being special for them, for their attractiveness, but actually what makes the most attractive is the fact that they might look most like most of us. As in, their features are symmetrical, as in their they’re not different looking. And beauty across cultures is very, very different.

    [00:34:17.795] 

    So in the Western world, we’ve got the slim figure is more attractive. In other cultures, full-bodied and slim can be unattractive in different times, being very pale, most attractive, whereas now it’s like the tan look is more attractive. So. It changes, but why it changes is based on the story of what it means to us. So, for example, someone. So when we looking in genetically women, women differ at times when they’re most fertile, when they’re least fertile and when they’re fertile, like as in when they’re looking to conceive, whether they’re consciously or when they’re biologically ready, they tend to look for someone who’s for a man who’s got very masculine features, because that denotes that that that man has good genes and therefore their baby has good genes.

    [00:35:25.695] 

    Whereas when they’re not, like, fertile, they tend to be more attracted to more feminine men who are maybe pretty looking but or more sensitive or looked like they would look after them more.

    [00:35:42.885] 

    So traditionally, when we look at science, the science tells us that men are more visual, that men are more attracted to looks.

    [00:35:55.305] 

    Whereas women often and someone talked about a guitar player or or something like that, women have often been attracted to power status, a man who’s got special qualities. So someone was talking about the amount of the power tools and women will often say they were attracted to the man when they’re doing a job, when they see them working, when they see them in the flow of competent, capable, which all plays into the idea of status being more attractive. So.

    [00:36:33.185] 

    For a man, it’s generally looks and not so much the status of a woman. Like being humorous can help a man to be attractive, but less likely for a woman. So that’s the science of of physical attraction. But then there’s also the chemistry and Don Massola in a TED talk talks about women. Women fall in love at the point of orgasm. The height of oxytocin, vasopressin men fall in love at the point of commitment. And that’s behind the advice she says it comes from her grandmother.

    [00:37:21.965] 

    The general advice that women should sleep with men straight away because when men have sex, they vasopressin drop’s. So they still feel the oxytocin, but the commitment a bit, they don’t necessarily commit, whereas if the point of commitment is to the point where they and I think people have alluded to that, that there might be people that you’re you’re not necessarily attracted to initially, but you develop feelings and then you develop an attraction like anyone who’s known someone they didn’t initially think of them in a romantic sense.

    [00:37:56.255] 

    But maybe six months later, after knowing them, they became attracted to them. Sometimes attraction develops from characteristics and from personality. So okay, so. Esther Perel has talked about. Desire she talks about essentially people want to things people want security, safety, security, what’s familiar, what they know. But they also want danger, excitement, adventure, risk. And so this is novelty, so we have these two conflicting desires for what’s familiar and for what’s new.

    [00:38:48.675] 

    And so when she talked to people about couples, we should talk to couples about what when they felt most attractive to their partners, like couples that been together for a while, it was they talked about being them being apart. So they’ll probably is like you miss someone when they’re not there. I can’t even remember what the words are, but the absence makes the heart grow fonder. And she also talked about them being radiant and confident. So when someone sees someone working, when someone sees someone up on the stage, when someone sees someone performing, so we get in patterns.

    [00:39:32.745] 

    If we see someone and eventually someone is just who puts in the band. And there’s all these levels of contempts. But when we see the different side of someone, we might feel more attraction to them so she can see sort of advocates that you shouldn’t be too close, you shouldn’t be too intimately and emotionally close because. That elusive desire, yet the Gutman’s equally have research and they would argue with data that. Gay couples that have good sex have good communication, couples that have poor sex have poor communication.

    [00:40:23.235] 

    So I think this would be interesting now if you if we look back on our past experiences. So if you think about the last few relationships and if you have, like, a bit of paper or you could do this, it’s just like a graph. And think about when were you most attracted? When you least the practice, if you were to draw a graph of attraction in your last relationship, your last few relationships. The point where it is most.

    [00:40:58.455] 

    What happened there? And what happened when it dropped? Can you notice the points of the relationship? Does that make sense? OK, so I’m going to time. I mean, that question just now, you said that men fall in love with commitment. What did you mean?

    [00:41:24.185] 

    Is that what you said that was? So you don’t at this. And she looked she she tallied chemistry. And so really, attraction is about like attraction in a relationship is about oxytocin, which you get from cuddling. It’s about dopamine, your dopamine. But you can get those from from lots of things. And one of the things that she argues is that mothers get too much oxytocin from their children and so they don’t need it from their partners. But I think she’s jumped to conclusions and we’ll go through this in a bit.

    [00:42:10.145] 

    So but the real thing, like when I found this from prairie voles is that prairie voles pal pair bond. But there’s another type of vole that doesn’t pair bond and they’re almost the same. And the difference is the vasopressin and vasopressin, therefore, is thought to be the chemical that creates that connection of why, why, why species y people, pabon and vasopressin is suppressed by testosterone. And some men are high in testosterone. But men who are in relationship have lower testosterone.

    [00:42:49.415] 

    So single men have high testosterone. Men who are committed in relationship have lower testosterone. And so testosterone suppresses the vasopressin. And so she talks about when men decide, when men see the relationship differently, that they decide to commit to this, to the partner, then that is what creates the the same biochemical state that woman will get at the point of orgasm, as in women will get this from Caitlin, from kissing and at the highest point from orgasm.

    [00:43:23.975] 

    And so they’ll feel this is why women tend to be more committed to like after an after sex, a woman tends to be what’s the word not tends to be more bonded, more connected to a partner for a I think, 36 hours after, whereas a man is for about 12 hours. I can’t remember the exact statistics, but a man is so much shorter period, so did that answer your question, Betty? Are you saying that when a man makes a commitment that makes you more attracted to her?

    [00:44:00.425] 

    He’s his biochemical status have been most attractive, is when he makes the commitment? Yeah, but what drives him to make the commitment was the decision rather than chemistry. Yeah. So it’s when he sees her in that light. So I would guess that he may be physical attraction is. And this is where people have talked about this so much more than physical attraction, because you physically if you’re physically attracted, then the physical attraction is just about sex.

    [00:44:34.255] 

    It’s lust. Where is the attraction of physical plus connection plus intelligence, plus the respect for the person has more has a different level of attraction. OK. When a man decides to commit, is it usually when he. Propose a marriage. Oh, no, no, this is when he feels the most connection. So when a man feels connected biochemically, he feels different. So it’s no commitment is more a point of this is the person I want to be with so it can come before.

    [00:45:21.545] 

    You mean a formal proposal for a relationship. Yeah.

    [00:45:27.525] 

    Travis. Am I pressing the button to think of this phone as I’m doing it by phone is one point, right? What do you think of this? So attraction, right, the first thing, the reason we are attracted to someone is because we see them through our eyes. Yeah, because we experience this world with our five senses, don’t we? There’s no other way we can experience it. We see the world. Can you just hold that for a minute, Travis?

    [00:46:02.305] 

    Because what I want to do is I don’t want to talk too much because we’re going to talk in a minute. But I want rather than. I want to know what we’re going to do in this way is for everyone to reflect, because in that reflection everyone’s going to come to their own conclusion, able to relate it to their personal experience. And then we’re going to talk about that. So if you can hold that thought when we come back, we’re going to try to make more sense of it.

    [00:46:34.045] 

    But if everyone’s thinking from their own personal experience. Then it’s each correct in the right context for them. Yeah, but what is he what we reflected on in that? I forgot what the question is.

    [00:46:49.155] 

    OK, so let me go through again. So what are what I’d like to do is if you imagine you’ve got a graph X and Y y axis, right. So on this on this scale, you’ve got the amount of attraction that you felt. And on this scale, you’ve got as the time as the relationship went on. So if you were initially hugely attracted. And you’re attractive for maybe six months and then it dropped and then it dropped and then maybe there was a peak.

    [00:47:18.645] 

    That’s the graph you draw. If you weren’t initially attracted, but then you your attraction grew, you would draw like that. So attraction comes and goes. So over the period of the relationship, over a year, over two years, over three years, over five, over 10 or 15, over 20. How did the level of attraction go? Does that make sense to everyone? So this is once this is already. This is from the beginning of a relationship, but this is the beginning of meeting somebody.

    [00:47:52.395] 

    Yeah, I mean, you can do it whichever way makes most sense. Whichever way you interpret it makes no sense to me. Like you could be insanely attracted to someone. I think it was Travis talked about being really attracted to someone. And then because they had no intelligence, they had no conversation, there was a lot more attraction went down. So we’re looking at drawing the graph of the attraction in your past relationships and then try and look at.

    [00:48:19.885] 

    What happened, why did the attraction drop down? Why did they increase? OK, so if we do, I’m going to set a timer for two minutes, we’re going to stay here and two minutes for you to reflect just on your experience. You can turn the camera off if you feel best and. Then we’re going to talk about it so everyone can clear what we’re doing. We’re back in the room. There we are. There you go.

    [00:48:50.505] 

    Over there. Well done as well, Rob.

    [00:48:55.165] 

    I might have to go out about 9:00. So this is nothing personal. I’ve just got to go at that time.

    [00:49:01.885] 

    OK, no problem. OK. OK, so who. I would like to share their experience of their finding from their reflections. What we find out in our group. The woman are more attracted when the men out of a. For a certain times and men are more attracted than the woman are close to them, or they get the physical. Touch the cuddle, the hugging. OK, so let’s go. Did you go any further into what was it when they were away?

    [00:49:54.955] 

    And one of them, they had the breakup and after six months later, they get back together. OK, so it was like psychological distance. Yes. And the other one was more about the story when it’s going to work the bus on. So an hour away or sometimes you see how it’s working, but from the far distance. OK, so the dynamics of the relationship have changed, and so the relationship was working better when they were away and so they felt more attracted.

    [00:50:35.425] 

    Yes. From the ladies sides. Okay, so there was friction in the relationship that was damaging the attraction? Yes. Yeah. And from the men’s side, it was being closer. Was that as in they felt more loved because there was that emotional closeness rather than physical, physical and a bit of emotion as well. So things were going well there. There was intimacy. So the men felt loved so so like as in there was physical touch through sex.

    [00:51:10.615] 

    The men physically felt close because I felt emotionally close, yes. OK, yeah. OK, thank you.

    [00:51:23.945] 

    I think virata I’m like saying your name right. Yeah.

    [00:51:28.425] 

    When I’m sure it’s fine. Nobody can pronounce my name properly anyways. Well to me it was I was the most attracted when that person was being vulnerable with me. So when they were opening up about not necessarily, you know, being like mopey or anything, but just admitting that they’re not doing absolutely great, which is, I think, really hard for men to do sometimes because they feel like they need they feel the need to be strong and the least attractive when there was that lack of communication.

    [00:52:00.185] 

    So when you ask a person if they’re OK and they’re like, oh, when you ask a person how they are and they say, oh, I’m OK, but they’re not OK and you know that they’re not OK, but they’re not telling you. And it just it really it just turns me off massively because I feel like that there’s a a distance between me and that person and the same goes for new connections as well, not just not just like old friends or anything.

    [00:52:24.335] 

    If I meet a person for the first time and they tell me something really genuine and honest, they could go from six to 10 really quickly. They could become really attractive to me, even physically, just because they opened up about their their struggles or anything, really. And I was talking with the guys as well, and they they found that I found that they they found different, different kind of aspects. We discussed five love languages as well.

    [00:52:55.205] 

    So maybe they’re going to maybe they weren’t want to share. But yeah, five love languages kind of intertwine so that if I can just pick a little bit more into that. So we talked about connection and we talked about connection. There’s been like layers of an onion and you like the beginning or you see someone once on a dating site is a profile and they just add this to the person. And as they tell you more and like how you get to know more and you get to know more about them, it’s like peeling the layers.

    [00:53:30.155] 

    And the more that you get to know them, the more connected you feel because you get connected to deeper into them. And so I think what you’re saying is the more that you were connected, the more that they let you in because the connection develops as much as someone shoeleather where someone has a barrier. And I don’t want you in any further. They want to tell you what’s going on or they won’t, you know, be vulnerable with you.

    [00:53:53.615] 

    So as that connection is developing, you felt attraction alongside the connection. Is that. Well, it was more like it’s it’s not just the connection, it’s just like that the person is just simply being genuine, that they’re being an actual person instead of being. And every day I call them and they just feel like a non playable character that you just approach. You ask them how they are and they’re like, oh, I’m OK. But you say you are OK to other 15 people in a day and you might not be OK.

    [00:54:26.525] 

    So and I always feel like what’s the worst that could happen if you told me that you’re not OK, what am I going to judge you?

    [00:54:34.565] 

    Yeah, thank you, Rob. Yes, I can be connected to you because you told me something that resonates with me and I feel empathy and all the rest of it, but I’m just not attracted to you. So I could want to hug you, I could want to, you know, hold your hand and but there is no attraction. It’s a connection because of a circumstance that you have related that I connect, that resonates with me, but I’m not attracted to you.

    [00:55:14.685] 

    OK, so. Sure, a quick show of hands who can fill because you can feel connected to friends without feeling a sexual attraction is what some are saying, who like quick show of hands, who feels. Does there need to be a physical attraction, plus the connection and plus the other elements? And who doesn’t need the physical attraction? You mean for a relationship to feel more attracted, like because I think when we talk about there’s a danger that we talk about humor, we talk about vulnerability, authenticity, but.

    [00:56:10.855] 

    Comedians don’t always are always attractive to every woman, you know. A lot of comedians have trouble with women because there’s a difference between making someone laugh and making someone laugh and feel attracted. So like, for example, like I who like him, he finds humor attractive. OK, who would feel a sexual attraction to Mr. Bean? I’ll take my hand just in case.

    [00:56:49.455] 

    So do you see there’s a type of humor like banter increases attraction. Slapstick. Jobs attraction, like he would like if anyone can remember Frank Spencer or Lee Evans, yeah, that kind of character.

    [00:57:08.345] 

    But what I’d say is sometimes somebody might judge somebody and say, oh, he’s a four out of 10 nonphysical. But it goes on for five or six when he starts making me laugh. Or whatever his story is, whether it is comedy is still that boozy or because either it’s the about the comedy, whatever makes you smile, all laugh that still. Well, what do you still say a four or five out of 10 is still not enough. It still might boost them as a rating, as a person combining their attraction with, you know, with a sense of humor.

    [00:57:44.405] 

    It still might not be enough with social media. Some people might go, Johnny Vegas is a three at one time. And it makes me laugh because if I’m outside, but still I won’t go to. But again, you might still see a guy who’s a owlets and you discover you like his personality or his sense of humor, and that makes benign.

    [00:58:06.555] 

    Yeah, so it make it so anyone else got anything to talk about from there in terms of the.

    [00:58:26.645] 

    Reflexion. I think one of the things that.

    [00:58:34.375] 

    Comes into into how things change to for speaking as a female, it’s trust and that can affect that graph that you’re talking about and you can have that reaction. You can have all the other things. And that one’s mistrust comes into that. It shifts that that graph is going to change until the. And I know that that I’m speaking from personal experience. OK, I’m talking about the first time you see your husband come in, help with lots of kids on his on his body.

    [00:59:18.865] 

    You know you know that he’s been elsewhere. So that does shift and shift your or whatever it is you feel to think are thing. You know, no matter what you want to do or say, it’s a reality. You have to acknowledge that that is a barrier.

    [00:59:37.915] 

    Yeah. Yeah. And so the graph must change. So I just put some common things out there to them. Fisher talked about their being free lives there, being a sex life in the romantic drive and being the drive for companionship, love and sex drive. She said we dispersed so we could feel a sex drive any time somebody is interested in reproducing. The romantic drive is taking that general attraction and focusing it all on one person. So it’s an obsessive kind of what we term love.

    [01:00:21.415] 

    I think a lot of people to call that love, but that only has a shelf life of about two or three years, which is why naturally. So unless she says that evolutionary, that’s long enough to reproduce and stick around for the time when one infant needs you most until they’re about two or three and but that drops and a lot of people feel that drop and then feel like, oh, well, I’m not in love anymore. Where what she’s saying is actually the deep companionate love is is developes.

    [01:01:03.325] 

    That’s slower to develop to where the romantic love drops like that. On the graph, the companionate love develops and Jed Diamond talks about the five stages of a relationship and being most couples break up on stage three where the actual where the curve goes down because of the stresses of whatever the relationship. But once you’re able to get past only work, if the couples stay together, then develop. So you get the eight year olds that walk around, you know, hand in hand.

    [01:01:34.495] 

    And so there’s the honeymoon period. And someone mentioned about the seven year thing. So I think once I think there’s a number of reasons, but there is some statistical evidence, but it’s not actually seven years since actually early than most relationships. The danger point is about four years, which coincides with Helen Fisher’s research. So then for a lot of people, it’s the stress. And Travis talked about this earlier and he talked about like, you have to deal with life.

    [01:02:16.905] 

    You know, stuff is going to happen. And one of the problems is that we don’t individually. Often we can’t deal with our stress, often with we we go to work, we consume. We’ve got for redundancy. We’re coming home. We still got the stress of our work. And so then we’re interacting with our children, with our family like that. That stress means that we’re not really being a great dad or husband or whatever. And so that then creates more friction in the relationship.

    [01:02:56.885] 

    So also, you’ve got pressures of relationships. You have children. Suddenly the whole dynamics are changed. Maybe a parent feels there’s no time for them because the child’s going to love or maybe someone’s looking for more a change in the relationship. And maybe one’s not mature enough. Quick. There’s more stress. There’s more you’re more tired. Your you’ve got less capacity. And so what happens for a lot of relationships is that couples just get embroiled in the domestic drudgery and they have no time for them.

    [01:03:37.985] 

    And so you then go through and all you’ve got to talk about are the jobs that the house needs doing the kids, what’s going on with the kids. But there’s no actual relationship left over like a business partnership of running the house.

    [01:03:54.485] 

    So then there’s also things like talked about, like the loss of trust, loss of respect, the friction, the resentment, because there’s a a conflict or a problem that hasn’t been dealt with. Someone keeps spending money, someone, you know, like someone’s always out with their friends and never home. All of these things are niggles that come into the relationship. And so this is why I think this is what the Goldmans are really talk about. They talk about when people can’t deal with stress.

    [01:04:34.125] 

    And a couple can’t do deal with stress there, all of these things break up the connection and said the attraction is gone because. Attraction is all about a story. It’s it’s about the story that you’re telling yourself about your partner and one of the things that that distinguishes good relationship couples in a good relationship from bad relationship is, is that a couple in a good relationship are delusional, as in they are quote. They they attribute. Their partner to be actually better than they are, and so there’s this kind of mindset where you sort of consciously put your partner on a pedestal and.

    [01:05:29.315] 

    Delude yourself that they’re better than the reality so that you feel more loving about them. So there’s that. And if you don’t do that. And you feel like my wife doesn’t respect me. You know, they don’t see what I’m doing. She’s all the time. Oh, she’s worried about the children and not me. Then that story means that you feel less appreciated, you feel less connected, you feel less attracted. And then that’s when Dorothy from accounts, who shows you the attraction and affection and respect suddenly becomes much more attractive to argue with you on that story.

    [01:06:14.345] 

    And their personal perception says, sorry, Betty, if you just that would you say I finished and now come to you, OK?

    [01:06:23.285] 

    So it’s like this. No one is looking at the same time. So yeah, I think I agree with you in the sense that certainly for me it was it was more difficult when there was that connection that gone and whether the emotional connection had gone for whatever reason, then transition from the start up. And it becomes difficult to say that. I mean, as it happens with us, I mean, not not always cheated on each other, but I think that the physical attraction of a conversation by the.

    [01:07:21.675] 

    And that was a direct result of the lack of communication. OK, yeah, it’s hard to feel attracted to someone when you don’t feel like I think he can’t remember, he talks about the difference between men and women that men need to feel attracted. Men, men respect generally, generally speaking, men are more looking for respect, women are looking for love. And if you don’t feel respected as a man, I think it’s hard to then feel attraction because if if, like your partner always looks at you.

    [01:08:10.685] 

    And I think this is by far as if your partner looks at you with contempt and criticism and says, why haven’t you done this right? If you haven’t done this, then you’re going to feel you’re not going to feel so attracted. Whereas if you feel loved, if you feel supported, and if you feel like your partner trusts you and respects you, then you’re going to feel more attracted. If he was someone else, who is the Daftari was who was just like someone else at work where you feel an attraction.

    [01:08:47.375] 

    We’re not blaming Dorothy for everyone’s relationship loss of attraction. So there was something else I wanted to bring in as well is. So that’s the Paral talks about the problem, she says that the problem is, is when you become too familiar to Encima, you lose the desire because the nature of desire is that desire is focused that you don’t have you don’t like. We desire an iPad until we’ve got one. We desire the latest iPhone because we don’t have it.

    [01:09:25.415] 

    But when we have it, we don’t desire that. We desire something else. And so the perennial problem in a relationship is that. We desire someone until we have them. So when we been with someone, let’s say, three, five years, you’re not feeling that same desire for them because they’ve become familiar. And this is where people will often say that they’ve got in a relationship and then someone’s got complacent and they’re not interested anymore. They make an effort by that.

    [01:10:00.395] 

    So they. So familiarity breeds contempt, and so where I think as the parade has gone wrong is I think she’s taken and she’s simplistically said, OK, you need to leave off the emotional intimacy. So that you still feel desire for your partner, whereas I think what the Gutman’s talk about is really is when you’re not dealing with differences, when you’re not dealing with the stress of everyday life and the stress as a couple. And I think it’s about and this is what we were talking about, rather, where when someone shows you something new.

    [01:10:42.685] 

    Now, we’ve talked when we talked about connection, that there’s this idea that, you know, someone off the five years and yet we still find new depths to ourselves after 20, 30, 40 years, because you can say that we know each other. We’re always finding things that we we try new things and we’re scared that we don’t we’re not going to be able to do not going to be able to do them. And then we find we can and we find new levels and new skills and so that.

    [01:11:13.495] 

    That level of finding about ourselves, if we have the same curiosity and interest in finding about someone else and developing that connection, and of course, assuming they allow it, they allow us and they have the ability to be vulnerable, we have that communication. There’s always more that we can find about someone. So it’s about being able to not think that we know someone because we’ve seen them about. But be curious and be interested in how are they changing because people do change, like people will blame someone changing in a relationship and say, well, we grew apart or actually you grew old.

    [01:11:56.095] 

    People grow. If you don’t grow, then there’s going to be a lack of interest and a lack of passion, because if all you do is you sit on the sofa and you never really talk. About anything, but you just kind of watch TV and then you are going to be bored with each other. But if you find something interesting and there’s still curiosity, there’s still something that you can have a desire about because it it it’s the same person.

    [01:12:24.135] 

    So Joseph Campbell talks about the hero with a thousand faces. And it’s really he’s talking about a story that is one universal story. But every hero is different to the structure of the hero’s journey is the same Star Wars, Matrix, The Hobbit, all of these have basically the same structure, but the hero is very different. And if we look at a partner with a thousand faces, what we’ve got is understanding that the person we know, like if anyone’s been in a relationship with someone, they might know them very well and then they get to see them in what context?

    [01:13:02.895] 

    And a completely different or you see new depths to someone when they when they do something, when they perform on stage, when they or whatever. There’s all these different ways that we haven’t seen the partner and if we’re able to. Have that curiosity and that connection and the relationship that enables that continually gained new depths, then we have the ability to have desire because the dynamics have changed. But that obviously takes more work. I’m sorry, Betty, you’ve been waiting very patiently.

    [01:13:35.895] 

    Sorry. Yeah, I was wondering about the line between a story and an interpretation. You saying some want to go about stuff happens and it’s the story you tell, but what if you’re just responding to what’s happening? Awesome, and you are, but you’re responding in the way that you make sense, because if something happens, so when a couple is in conflict. The same thing has happened like this thing has happened, but one sees one side of the story and one sees another side, so there’s the objective reality of what’s happened and then there’s the subjective reality of what someone makes it mean to each other by.

    [01:14:26.985] 

    So the interpretation depends on the story that you already have in mind. Does that make sense? Yeah, OK. Richard, I’m sorry, tell me if this is taking out, of course, but given what you just said about oboists, looking for new lawyers in the person or keeping the curiosity, does that also suggest almost that to the idea that you can almost build attraction with anybody? Because because it sounds like it’s much, much more a mind, a mindset.

    [01:15:07.035] 

    I mean, you could be with somebody that has it could be somebody that has lots of debts and lots of growth and potential. And you don’t take any time or interest to understand it. Equally well, because it sounds it sounds like a. And I think there was a little bit of this when I watched the video that a lot of this is is is your attitude then suggests. In a sense, it’s you could build that attraction with a lot of people.

    [01:15:42.805] 

    Yes, well, I think when you look at what attraction is. It’s really complex and it’s people are attracted, so. People of that attraction and generally men, typically quite basic and quite simple, whereas when when people have looked in remember the book, but when people looked at women like Fancy’s, they’re much more in debt for much more descriptive. And I think this really comes down to you about it’s really like an outcome of patriarchy and conditioning and all these kind of things.

    [01:16:38.205] 

    So if you look at like 50 Shades, like that took off because. If it triggered something in a lot of women, and I think when you look at what that really triggered was a lot of women have been given the story that they’re not allowed to enjoy sex. And so if they enjoy sex, they’re asleep. But when you’re in this kind of romantic scenario and you fall for this one and this this man is so confident and domineering that he takes control, it’s OK for you to have desire because he’s drawn out.

    [01:17:23.955] 

    So it’s it’s so women more often have or not often there are many women who have desires of. Like. Kind of like like a stranger role or someone where it’s not them going along with it, but it is under some level of force or blackmail or something like that. And what that is about is by what I see now is that they then make it okay for them to have the desire because it’s not them doing it, but it’s something happening to them.

    [01:18:13.935] 

    I don’t know, like I’m a man talking about this from a logical perspective. Really? Really. Really. Yeah. It’s it’s. So there’s a lot of like I can’t remember the book, but it’s there’s a lot of about the colorfulness of women’s desire and it’s about domination. Yeah. And it really comes from like the patriarchy. I’m trying to remember all this, but patriarchy, because it’s not okay to like sex because that makes you a slut.

    [01:18:56.085] 

    So if someone else. Like the forces, you then it becomes OK because it happened to you. Fifty Shades of Grey reminded me so much of Minassian boobs, I could not finish the book. Sorry, but Mills Boon has been popular with that kind of hero and I don’t know if any other women, but I read that when I was 13, 14, you I mean, I went to a girl’s school, your height, your Masamune in your thing and you it around the corner at 13.

    [01:19:35.715] 

    That’s not an adult. I mean, I’m sorry. And Fifty Shades of Grey. It was just about. You’re right, though. It’s about giving you permission to be here to explore yourself, which I find a notion that is really hard for me to swallow.

    [01:19:57.425] 

    But I accept it. But it doesn’t make it any less. I don’t know what the word I’m looking for right now, but I find I find it. I think that as you’re right, as you’re correct in that women have been brainwashed by society that we need to be you know, in some tribes, you bring up the sheet after the wedding and with the blood tissue that was consummated and all of that kind of stuff. And as we are and what have you in the virginal girl until she’s taken by the man.

    [01:20:35.885] 

    But when do we get to a point where a woman can acknowledge her sexuality and speak about it openly without the labels of the slut and the and the etc. and what have you and so forth and the harmless. And will not necessarily lead to jumping into bed, but it’s a song and a dance, which brings you both pleasure and what have you and all of the things in between that you’re allowed to do. Well, I think freezing forward or less than I think.

    [01:21:21.645] 

    Intellectually and consciously, they can. But what you’ve got is you’ve got different levels of operating. So we are so lucky if this conditioning and there’s a whole level of Christianity and there’s level of everything that you’ve grown up with. And so intellectually, you can say that it’s the same thing. It’s like the fairy tale framework is the. Consciously, we may say that we don’t agree with that, but. On the terms of what we operate on, that we do.

    [01:22:04.925] 

    And if you look at like the mills and Boon and things is really a continuation of Beauty and the Beast and those kind of. Things where which I think is kind of like if you look and you could trace the lineage of all of those things. Which plays into the idea of. Sometimes into go ahead, sorry, go ahead, go ahead, which really just plays into the idea of. Of women being. Yeah, Benmore passive. And so women contribute to this discussion by also being unfairly critical of their fellow women.

    [01:23:03.985] 

    Sometimes, yeah, yeah, because, yeah, yeah, which which reinforces it.

    [01:23:13.355] 

    Yeah, and and I think probably. Yeah, I think probably some of them sometimes the status and feeling is more about for other women than for for men. Sorry, Karl, you’ve been very patient. Most insiders have to say I was wondering when you spoke earlier about some kind of like reasons for relationships and different phases. Is it possible that you’ve moved into a more what did you call a friendship, kind of companionship? Can you ever get back to that relationship or is it like a crack pipe?

    [01:23:59.505] 

    Once it’s done, it’s done? Or can you can you move back to that level?

    [01:24:04.905] 

    And have you have you ever been in a job and not like that? Yeah. And have you then found something in it that you regained your passion for it? What specific one, but yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it’s always possible, I think the nature of relationships is up and down. You will lose attraction, you will gain attraction. So, yeah, it’s possible. So, yeah, I think I don’t know if anyone wants to to speak if they lost the traction and regain their.

    [01:24:50.005] 

    Is possible if you working on it on a daily basis, but you need to work in The Daily Beast because if you stop for a long time, it will take a long time to catch up after. And I don’t think nobody will wait that long. It’s the same venue stop doing, Jim. It will take eventually a couple of weeks to catch back for the same muscle size. Your your memory, your mind, it’s not losing that thing, however, you’ve continuously have to do every single day.

    [01:25:28.555] 

    That’s one way that you can look at is if you’ve ever you’ve ever really been in conflict with a partner and. Like, there’s no attraction, you just, like, focused on this conflict, and then when that conflict is gone, how do you feel immediately if you resolve that? How do you feel immediately the problem? By just solving the. That issue, it would want help. Because that’s actually trigger you from the past something, so you need to solve the issues in the past.

    [01:26:09.735] 

    Because otherwise it will come back again, again and again will hit you. So you need to go deeper on that and to solve much deeper issues in the past. And that’s when it’s coming. The communication to understand the other person, to not let me just say, oh, yes, that was no, it’s actually much deeper than tell me more about. Definitely in terms of a relationship, but in terms of attraction, there are couples that have really passionate relationships that are based on a lot of drama of falling out and then breakup sex and then falling out and breakup sex.

    [01:26:46.225] 

    So, yeah, you can get back the attraction. But like Janell says, in the long term, you have to be able to to develop the relationship. And the ability to deal with the differences by stealth Lucy. I have more the question I’m just wondering, like I haven’t been in a relationship which would be past six months, six or seven, but I’m wondering what other things people think that the couples should do in the honeymoon phase or when they are like so much in love to make it last?

    [01:27:23.095] 

    Like, is there something that’s there is like a pattern that if you do this at the start, then you will develop such a connection that it’s more likely to get to that company place and you’re going to stay together? I, I think really that yeah, ideally in that time you would build the ability to have the communication so that you’re able to have open and honest communication. You deal with the differences and. I think if couples had the expectation that they were going to hear problems and knew that it’s inevitable and it’s not just something that’s happening because they’ve lost attraction or connection, then they would be able to prepare for it.

    [01:28:17.865] 

    So it’s it’s really going deeper in the connection. With each other and open in that time, when you feel when you have that open and honest communication that you’re able to. Then be able to maintain that past problems. Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, and I don’t have the firsthand experience. I think one of the problems that relationships have is that people get together at the peak of their attraction. And because of that. When that attraction drops, they then feel that love has gone, what they’re calling love is really attraction.

    [01:29:06.505] 

    And so when that attraction drops, they don’t think there’s anything left, follow them. Whereas if you recognize that that was that was like an initial thing because your. You’re going to change how you feel about someone when they’re when they’re familiar to you. And so if you’re able to develop that. Develop the relationship at that time. Then you can deepen and strengthen it. Sorry, Lacey. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think I agree with that.

    [01:29:49.905] 

    I just need a personal experience to know for sure, but hopefully you’ll have some version. OK, we have to come back and let us know. Yeah, it’s been seven months, but we are still in the honeymoon phase.

    [01:30:06.655] 

    OK, so yes, it’s your last and then we will last beyond that.

    [01:30:11.935] 

    Yeah, it’s they like the body, have rhythms like we have a circadian rhythm every day, that there’s times when we physically feel more tired, when we physically feel less tired. And a couple also has a rhythm and you have a rhythm and it’s it’s knowing it’s recognizing how you have lunch, when to do certain things and recognizing when each of you forceful, slower so that you can you can know this is when you stop writing because they’re just not happy generally as opposed to not happy with you.

    [01:30:49.855] 

    Because oftentimes we feel unhappy in the relationship because really we’re happy, unhappy in ourselves, and even if we were alone and we were single, we’d be unhappy. But because we’re unhappy, we’re looking for an excuse for why we’re unhappy and we blame the partner.

    [01:31:07.535] 

    Yeah, I think we have our downturn’s in the lockdown, but in general, like the connection is very strong, like the communication. So we don’t blame each other or anything, but we are having each of us is having a hard time.

    [01:31:22.865] 

    Yeah. Can I give space out to people? OK.

    [01:31:27.875] 

    But how does one recognize when one is blaming the other party? For something that is actually. Driven from within you. Because some people in the other party, the partner, may recognize that this is the case, it’s nothing to do with them, but then how do you explain that to the person who is accusing or. Thinking, thinking that that that that that is the reason questions the questions I had this issue, somebody was accusing me with something and I just ask what make you to feel that and actually start opening up?

    [01:32:16.825] 

    And we find out she just had to feel stories behind and that was the reason why she assumed the spot. It’s actually similar to me. So we find out actually she’s a very strong person because she’s able to work out every single night even after that. Scary stories. I think for us, it’s also kind of just like talking through the problem and looking for help. Like if I tell him about my problem, it’s like he doesn’t feel blamed for it.

    [01:32:51.615] 

    If I tell him it’s because of something else and we talk for it and I more like seek help with him or seek connection rather than, like, ventilating. It’s a side effect of the problem. I would be just annoyed. I think it’s really about brutal honesty. We lie to ourselves so all the time we kind of.

    [01:33:22.565] 

    So I always use this example. But the die industry is so big because we lie to ourselves, because when people are tracked about what they’ve eaten and what they said they’ve eaten, it’s very different in the same way, like the destruction of human is to feel good and we try and change anything that doesn’t feel good. So we buy more women unhappy and we don’t we don’t buy more. We don’t say, oh, I’m unhappy. So I’m going to buy this.

    [01:33:55.865] 

    We say, oh, I need this. I deserve this. And so all of these things are because of how we operate.

    [01:34:05.075] 

    And so all of our problems stem out of the way that we operate and and what’s between what we do and what we feel is or what’s between the reality that we have. And what we feel and then what we do is the narrative, which is which is like our operating system, is that we’re going to. We make sense of there’s something called cognitive economy, which means basically we try to make sense of the situation using as little cognitive resources as possible, just cognitive economy or cognitive efficiency, and essentially is to conserve our thinking.

    [01:34:52.105] 

    And so what we’ve done is we’ve grown as a society. We have more and more and more packed into the same amount of time. So we build genetically built for thousands of years ago and we built for like caveman lifestyle. And yet we’ve got Facebook, Instagram, and we’ve been bombarded with all of these different bits. So, like everything now is so technical that you have to read the instruction manual to know how it works. And most of us operate and stuff without really knowing how well our washing machines do, dishwashers do.

    [01:35:27.145] 

    And we just have basically what we do. And so we shortcut by making sense of that. And so part of the way that we do is by deleting, distorting and generalizing and we make whatever makes sense, the easiest that fits with how we generally expect things to be. And so that means we’re blaming a partner. So it’s recognizing in ourselves, are we above the line or below the line? When we’re below the line, we’re going to blame our partner.

    [01:35:58.525] 

    We’re going to try and force them to do what makes us feel better. If it’s the partner, then you can point out. But whether they believe it or not is down to them. So it depends on the relationship that you have, the ability that you have to have that communication. Now, initially, if they’re below the line, they’re probably going to react and try and dismiss or whatever. Now, maybe the people who work in different ways, some people need like, OK, I need to go and think about it.

    [01:36:27.385] 

    And then I go, yeah, it was me. I was being a dick. Sorry, some people still want me and some people will be like, nah, it’s still you because they don’t want to look. So it depends on the relationship and it depends on the partner. So that’s quite a long answer. But it makes sense.

    [01:36:47.125] 

    I was just going to mention just any of your thoughts on balance and communication, because, you know, I agree with you that it is about honest phone calls splitting. I use the word intellectually honest communication, but also you want to have fun, you know, if you’re with somebody. That’s right. We need to sit down. We’ll have a chat about this, about every single thing. Does it not drain the lifeblood out of the dynamic? Somewhat.

    [01:37:19.765] 

    And I guess the answer to the question is, perhaps I’m saying something too simplistic is that you find the right time, the right moment, and it’s all about delivery. But where would you say you’d strike some sort of balance between having that debt yet still that that playfulness, the balance and talked about chemistry and quantum. So for me, what springs to mind is the difference between logic and emotion. So you deal with problems with logic. But.

    [01:37:54.495] 

    If it’s all logic, then there’s no fun, there’s no connection, there’s no feeling. So if the feeling is there developed the feeling, if the feeling isn’t there because of a problem, then the logic is going to be that the solution is going to be through logic. But as soon as you’ve got dealt with the problem, then it needs to be back to emotion and funny is emotion. So if you respond with fun to something as serious, like Travis was talking earlier about, you know, like, yeah, you’ve got to have fun.

    [01:38:27.535] 

    And that’s why I was going a bit deeper, because you can’t be fun because someone who’s all fun is also carefree and their life is chaotic. And so that doesn’t work. So, yeah, it’s really it’s knowing how to respond, which is an hour more than. But it’s the problem, but, yeah, it’s why it’s not because you need to have that kind of logic, but also wrapped up in fun as well, because we need we need fun, we need emotions, and we need the ability to develop a future.

    [01:39:09.815] 

    But all three are important. I sort of felt you can probably have fun if there is, like unresolved problem, like in general, and also resolving the problem kind of makes you closer as well. Like it’s the deeper thing I am, at least myself seeking in the relationship.

    [01:39:27.875] 

    So, yeah, definitely. I think if you look at problems, problems are also an opportunity, like it’s cliche that was in Chinese, I think probably an opportunity to the same sign and. Really, what it’s about is Travis was talking about us and it was about it’s really about how you navigate some relationships really aren’t about lets people talk about it like there’s a formula and it’s kind of like this. But this process really relationships aren’t really the VP kinds of relationships.

    [01:40:08.385] 

    It’s not about the other person. It’s not about you and the person. It’s about how you navigate life. And part of that is about how you navigate problems. And if you like, a lot of people will avoid problems and try and do everything to avoid having the problem and then going to have a problem crushes everything. But really, it’s about. Knowing that there’s a problem and a problem is just means there’s something in the way that you see the world, there’s something in your skills and or there’s something in like you even need to develop a skill.

    [01:40:46.795] 

    You even need to develop resources or you need to develop a different way of seeing things.

    [01:40:56.545] 

    In my personal experience, what I seen, you need to watch out the tensions. Souness, when you realize the tension is very high, you have to drop it with the joke. You have to banter it and you might come back other days. Ladies are very good with that. They really try to giggling and all these kind of things. They are really low when it’s the best for them. You just need to watch out for their eyes. And if you see that, you can easily learn how to navigate, to bring that emotion closer, to build up, but that it’s no good and bad in these you know, you can’t make it right.

    [01:41:38.815] 

    You need to read it. You need to be there with your five senses that it’s no manual for this. It’s your authenticity. You need to feel it. Seat. I can’t describe it either way. Yeah, that’s a really good point. It’s an art. And if you look, I think the idea of a graph is really good in the sense of that for your partner. You really need to know when they’re down, how do you bring them up when they’re angry?

    [01:42:12.935] 

    How do you resolve that when they’re sad? How do you how do you do that? And then it’s a bit like being an orchestra for each others, for each other and watching the graph of their emotion. And so it’s not taking things on. So typically we take things and this is part of like when we talked about connection, people don’t go deeper. They’re looking superficially. And so they’re looking he did this. She did this. And they’re assuming I would feel this and that, where really being curious, being interested means that you look at the person, it’s kind of like the Matrix and you don’t look at the person, but you look at their emotional graph.

    [01:42:56.585] 

    And then when you recognize them there, they’ve had a bad day at work. They’re feeling bad. They’re worried about their job, they’re worried about whatever, that this is what’s driving their behavior. So if I can address that. It’s going to help them feel better and then we’re going to be better, like we’re going to be better if that makes sense.

    [01:43:22.225] 

    You remember some time ago we were talking about men like to fix problems when they see what they want to do to fix it. I think what we’re talking about now is a clear indication of not needing to fix anything specific, but recognizing there is an issue that needs some attention and attention, maybe just support on your part, because it’s not something that you necessarily need to fix. But then that brings comes and brings me to think that what it is is actually seeing the person.

    [01:44:11.985] 

    And just like what you’re talking about, it’s seeing the person through the different phases and recognizing what they are. What they mean, and so the five love languages and men are from Mars, women from Venus. Those things are really about on going a little bit deeper. But rather than where they’re broad stroke, you know, everyone has five categories. Everyone into two categories is really about understanding beyond that, what is individual to this person and then being able what do they need?

    [01:44:50.425] 

    Do they need support that they need? And like so the thing with men want to give advice is like every someone is learning how to pronounce him with a hammer, sees everything as a problem when they hit with a hammer. And it’s now is having the full range of full tool kit and knowing. And that’s really about. You can only know that from communication and time. And this is where the connection can get deeper in the right relationship because you understand how to deal with that, which then takes you deeper and deeper.

    [01:45:35.415] 

    Sometimes it only needs a back rub. Yeah, yeah, but in the sense of yeah, once you have when you know, when you can read the person and know exactly. OK, that’s just a bad look how much time that’s saved. And that’s when the like communication can get so much deeper because you don’t need to keep covering the same basics that you don’t need to small talk because you can get straight into the more meaningful things. Sandra, to go back on about when she was asking when, you know, somebody is blaming, you just have to simply watch out their words, because whenever what in my personal experience, even if I talk with my teammates, well, they do have a problem.

    [01:46:24.605] 

    I really watch the words what they’re using. And after I just ask you back, it’s very interesting to use that word. What do you mean by that? And when you got you go deeper on that word, you actually find out that’s what the person thinking about. But it’s projecting out like somebody else doing that. Just simply by the word what the using that’s in my personal experience, and I coach around 2000 people so far, so that’s what my experience from that.

    [01:46:59.185] 

    But again, this doesn’t mean a 100 percent will be obese because everybody individual different emotional feeling, and that’s when it’s coming, the men as the rock solid. And it can be take out the emotion level, so because we are asked to meet or we think sometimes that emotion from other person as the man, we should stand up as the solid rock and pick out if the person in that bad emotion level by making bantering, just throw a Pruitt’s or something.

    [01:47:36.775] 

    And you literally you take out from that emotion of a like a shock and you start laughing. So you actually put in a different emotion level. Or just simply, you know what, I don’t know how we can solve this, but I’m here to support you and just trusted the person, we’ll find a solution by giving all this advice. It’s actually diversity’s what you can do as the man, because Boatman’s doesn’t want our help by fixing just I’m here.

    [01:48:07.315] 

    Hold your hand. Availability. Support you, I think that’s one of the solution, what I see, I think we. I think that that’s very true and I think it’s. You talked about also what kind of came to mind when you when you first started talking, is that. People will tell you exactly what they need, like people’s words. Tells you what they see. So when people talking about seeing red, that’s probably literally what happens in their mind when they talk in the metaphors.

    [01:48:45.965] 

    If you can use the same metaphors, it’s awe and really listen is like their words will paint you a picture of what they’re there, that what they’re doing. So when I talk to people in my head, what I’m really doing is kind of walking around in their head because they their words tell me what they say, what they feel, and they tell you how to to make sense of it. And so there’s something else from from what you’ve said is also the strongest.

    [01:49:22.115] 

    Emotion always dominates. So in any interaction, there’s two if there’s two different emotions, the person who’s strongest in their emotion is going to change to the other one. So if someone’s really angry. The most people get angry with them because when someone’s angry, they’re going to hit every everything you’re sensitive about, they’re going to try and pick on anything to get a response to try and hurt you if you’re able to stay calm, to use humor or whatever you use.

    [01:49:57.565] 

    But if you stay and say, you know, like I’m there for you or I still love you or whatever, that’s going to dissipate the anger, whoever is most strongly. Firmly entrenched in their emotion will be the one that dominates the interaction. So if you’re able to stay strong for someone, regardless of what it seems like on the surface. That’s how you change their state. Sometimes I use the pillow, you know, this really helps that also indicates that you have faith in the relationship.

    [01:50:42.745] 

    To be steadfast, yeah, and the reason why a lot of people can’t do it is because their faith in the relationship, faith in themselves, that taking things personally is kind of quite thin. It takes a lot of. It really goes back to last week was the second one, Bentinck, take things personally and yeah, but it’s hard not to. And everything in the way that we’re given to operate makes us take things personally, it makes us react to momentary things, is the same thing with a problem that problems will happen.

    [01:51:30.555] 

    But. In the moment, we think it’s all a dramatic. But over a long period of time is just a blip, and if we recognize when we’re in that blip, that it is just a blip. Then we don’t take it so seriously. For me was just like a lesson, you know, one of my workers was telling the sun, when it’s raining, it’s like Hassan, it’s like two years old and it’s raining, hit his knees.

    [01:52:02.585] 

    And after he’s kissing and continue running as the adults, what we do. Oh, the complaining about everything we forget to be child. We so much restricted, we want to protect our personality, our body, for no reason, we conserved our energy for our emotions. And we not leave, we not feel bably. But OK, if there is a particular issue is becomes repetitive in a relationship. That to me would speak to something that’s probably more deep rooted, deep, a deep seated issue that may even have serious underpinnings that would require.

    [01:53:02.265] 

    Not just the usual treatment it needs, it would to me, it needs careful, I don’t know what what you would call it, but some examination, some some something that that deals with the issue. Otherwise it will continue to to come up. Yes, it is. So. So this is this will work like this way of reacting will work in a good relationship. But if there’s problems, like if the other person there’s a perennial problem, the other person is not interested, the relationship isn’t working for other reasons, then that would only be a temporary patch.

    [01:53:47.805] 

    So this is based on two people with integrity, respect, kindness, who are committed to each other. And who are reciprocating the same levels of relationship, but if this fundamental problem is not going to fix that and but what it will get to if you have that open, honest conversation is it will get to is you’ll get to that. That’s the problem first. So rather than dealing with this problem, this problem, so some most couples really don’t break up for the real reason that they break up for like they break up, you know, like people use all these measures.

    [01:54:30.005] 

    The reason why people break up, if they really analyze that, that’s not really the reason they’re breaking up. So it’s like like growing apart, we grew apart with different people. That’s not the real reason. The real reason is you lost connection and somewhere along the line you lost connection because everyone goes apart, but it’s that they had differences they didn’t resolve and never talked about. So in the wrong relationship, you say it’s not going to work because if you don’t have that integrity, you don’t have that commitment, then this stuff is makes the relationship smoother.

    [01:55:14.105] 

    But if the fundamentals aren’t there, then it is only a temporary Band-Aid. But this is, by societal standards, quite advanced. And correct me if I’m wrong in so much that with the British disease of politeness that often and some things are very uncomfortable to talk about or taboo in society. And so this and you keep hitting home about it is my point of view as well about this honest and frank communication. We’re not taught to do that diplomacy, especially in business, in the workplace.

    [01:55:55.605] 

    My answer to that is quantitative easing is not black and white. So I’m not just becomes par for the course. So this is if I say it might tell me if I’m exaggerating, but I feel it is quite advanced and quite revolutionary to be able to connect in this way. And can you expect somebody or they probably wouldn’t be the ideal match for the average person off the street to live up to these sort of communications standards and philosophy?

    [01:56:27.225] 

    Yeah, you’re right. And that’s why I think that we have a medieval mindset for relationships. And that’s why because you don’t have something that fifty five percent of it breaks and then say, oh, that’s individual error. That’s not individual error. That’s a systemic problem. So the problem the problem is that we don’t have that. We don’t it’s our expectations and it’s the way that we approach relationships. So, yes, you can understand relationships, but like you say, then the problem is most people don’t do that.

    [01:57:03.045] 

    So you create you you have to create. I talk about it being active in the relationship. You have to create your own relationship. What most people are creating is a default commodity’s relationship where they meet each other. They just drift along and do what everyone else does. So. So not everyone is up to that and not everyone’s up to it, because not everyone is willing to face the truth, because societally most people are uncomfortable with honesty. Most people have too much anxiety.

    [01:57:41.975] 

    And so when you look at business, the biggest reason, biggest problems in business aren’t really business problems. They’re just relationship problems. The whole of society. When you look at the problems, so you look at the conflict, there’s a place and protests and things. And what we’re really coming down to is that society has been built on a control model so that certain people control and the police are that representation of control. But what what’s happening is there are problems that we’re recognizing as racism, sexism and all of those kind of like homophobia and all of those things.

    [01:58:25.415] 

    And as those have been unacceptable and people are challenging the status quo, the status quo is still based on using force and control. And so you’ve got to societally, this is something we’re working out individually. Our relationships don’t work for the same reason. When you when people feel controlled, they hate it. They feel unhappy. When people feel free, they feel happy. You know, societally, we understand this because what do we do to punish someone?

    [01:59:02.165] 

    We take away their freedom. So but the problem is that people are trying to inhibit people’s freedom in a relationship. And so then people feel unhappy because nobody wants to be a captive, but they’re so captive there.

    [01:59:24.215] 

    Sorry. The reason that we are made to feel captive is this notion of you complete me, your partner completes you rather than you being a complete person unto yourself, first and foremost. Yeah. So you need to you need to capture somebody to make you you have to keep them tied to you. Otherwise you need to be complete. Exactly. Exactly. People have a feeling and it comes down to a sense of self-worth, self lack of self-worth that people feel they need other people in a relationship and in business.

    [02:00:04.315] 

    So people also feel that they need something from the boss, they need something from the customer. They feel they need to win something in business because they don’t necessarily feel that they deserve it. And so that’s where people lie in business. That’s where that’s where that lack of honesty comes from. So ultimately, the key to relationships is mastering yourself, being able to navigate life, being able to deal with the stress, being able to manage your fear and being able to be honest, whatever that means.

    [02:00:45.825] 

    But when you go to school, you’re taught everything else except how to be the best person that you can be. Yeah, because that doesn’t that doesn’t fit society’s goals. And so, yes, so a lot of people and that should really be what we’re filtering for in a relationship is we shouldn’t necessarily be high or what someone’s job is or those things, but their ability to communicate with us and grow with us. Sorry, Sam, you muted.

    [02:01:24.315] 

    You know, I was just thinking about how do you how do you maintain your own autonomy and merge with somebody else when it seems so, so conflicting?

    [02:01:35.305] 

    So what typically happens is people feel an attraction, marry based on that attraction, or get into a committed relationship by Nicole. Then they get into that committed relationship because of how they felt, because of the attraction. So then that becomes all this force. And so the expectation is that you maintain the relationship so that people sacrifice for a relationship. Whereas really I think that you should commit to the partner, that you can be yourself and they can be themselves with you.

    [02:02:22.275] 

    So you commit to someone who has integrity, respect and kindness if you both have that. And the reason a lot of people don’t trust is really because a lot of people aren’t trustworthy. And said people want to trust. So there’s a lot of like this is really interesting but dangerous passion and it’s really talking about jealousy. And so it talks about a lot of, you know, like a lot of people are like, you got unreasonable jealousy. And I go to a therapist and they have this treatment for their trust and a sizable proportion of them.

    [02:03:03.325] 

    It later turns out that there was there is a basis it was an intuition they picked up that later became. So people people are people and we all have moments of weakness, will do things that we later regret. And so that can happen. But your I think the best relationship strategy is so that someone is more happy with you than they will be with anyone else. And some level of that relationship depends on you choosing a partner that will be trustworthy.

    [02:03:46.895] 

    So some of that is about the relationship. So there are people who will cheat, whatever. And so it’s getting to the truth of that, and then there are people who will cheat because they feel unhappy in the relationship. All and not just cheaper to betray or abandon or whatever the fear is. And so it’s about. Building a relationship that makes you both feel free and happy and recognizing that the most important thing is that you’re happy and they’re happy because the relationship is less important than the individuals in a relationship is what’s between you, but the individual’s happiness is most important.

    [02:04:39.355] 

    And so you have to focus and also be less. I think we have to be less attached to a relationship and if someone punches the thing, it’s like if you really love someone, you let them go. And if the right thing for them is to not be in the relationship, then I think we have to adjust to that and. Like, not try and cling to someone, not try and hold someone back. Did that answer your question?

    [02:05:08.295] 

    I’ve kind of gone off on a tangent. It does to an extent, but I think all of this I think you’ve talked about requires a certain level of emotional intelligence and you know, not everybody does that.

    [02:05:20.955] 

    Yes. Not everyone is going to be your partner. And so that is this is the criteria of how you choose a partner. You can have a, again, a great dating relationship. With someone who is entirely unsuitable for a domestic relationship because it takes different qualities, so in order to grow with someone, so there’s there’s so the other thing is like have you heard of growth mindset and fixed mindset? So for the sake of anyone who hasn’t missed, there’s a growth mindset means that we think that we can grow and develop, we can be better than we are a fixed mindset.

    [02:06:00.825] 

    Think this is what someone is? Well, really, people are people can always great people can always evolve and people can be better than they are now if we accept someone as they are. We people will give us whatever we expect, whatever we accept. Like, if someone is cheating on you and they’re abusing you and you stay in the relationship, you’ll say, that’s why I accept. If if they know that you won, then they have to raise themselves to be to be somewhat better, if, like you don’t take me out you don’t care about me, then do this all these things that are important to you.

    [02:06:43.695] 

    If the other person doesn’t do and you say, well, I still love you, well, then they’re not going to change. But if you say no, this is why I expect so. It’s about having your having your standards of what you’ll accept. So you have to so this means that you have to do a lot of work before, as in determining what do I need to be happy? What qualities does someone have to have in order for us to have the relationship that will make me happy?

    [02:07:18.045] 

    What qualities do they need of me that they will be happy and sad? And then it’s about the interaction of how do we build the relationship so that we both feel happy, that we both feel safe to communicate. And some people want to do that. And they’re the people that the relationship when what they say it comes down to real honesty of how what relationship do I need? Like if you want, this relationship is really going to grow and it’s going to be honest and all of the continually deepening connection, then you need someone that’s going to do all that.

    [02:08:02.385] 

    If you’re happy with a relationship with someone who goes to work and you have your own life and, you know, I mean, there’s different levels of relationship if you’re happy with that level of connection and you need someone else. So you need to know, and this is about like. In the dating part, this is where you talk about like, what do you really need to be happy? Because what people will do, they’ll be in a relationship and then that relationship will work for them for a while.

    [02:08:34.205] 

    But honestly, I was more than happy where I’m I’m not going to do that. And that’s why people say they grow apart, because they never really clarified what they really wanted from the relationship. And so it’s really is about you really need to know you. And then and then some of that is about some people don’t know until they’re exposed to it. So people who grow do so because something mom. And it may be that the relationship was personal or it may not, but the quicker that you can get to the truth.

    [02:09:15.695] 

    Of someone and not judging them on other factors, but judging them on their ability to have that lasting relationship is how quickly that you can filter through people. So you’re going to take a lot of people and a lot of people won’t have that emotional intelligence or capacity to work at that. So it’s at what level you need and what level will they go to? Does that clarify or is there still something that makes good sense? You but that’s actually a little bit more related to the D.

    [02:09:51.235] 

    Groll mindset things as well for the L.A. law. I don’t know if you know the L.A. law parallel law. Yes, it’s like 80-20 rules. OK, yes, so close and consequence is seen by the humanity as well in the world, what David Hawkins saying, it’s actually around eighty five percent of the population. They are below on that mindset where they are in the fear, anxiety and all this apathy level. So you will actually find these people with the fix mentality and you will only find 50 percent of the population with this growth mindset where you can.

    [02:10:36.265] 

    Actually, a little bit of intellectual talking with them and the funny one about even if you ask somebody what’s make you happy, they’re still not 100 percent will be always through. It’s like when we had a talk in front of the group, one of the lady was saying, oh, and the beginning of the relationship, I wanted to know the person. So I wanted to somebody somehow have this predictability and routine. But that that’s what is breaking the relationship.

    [02:11:09.385] 

    So actually, what we wanted, it’s not what we wanted. Yeah. What we’re seeing, it’s not that the truth. It’s our caution minded saying that because we wanted something fix in the life. But the reality, we want it up and down. That’s the life and that’s how we should think about. But the fix mentality is more all the time in the line. And sometimes we do. Even with the group mentality, we do want everything like, OK, financial, we want all these fixed.

    [02:11:38.755] 

    But in the end, the day does really good. Is the life giving excitement, if you got something, what you don’t know? We want to control too much. And by controlling, we actually not enjoying. OK, I’m going to have a banner up, stable relationship required, no marriage, no domestic relationships, no domestic situations. In other words, maybe maybe that’s maybe that’s another level of a relationship. But I met this taxi driver once and he said that he had a wife and he got divorced and they got back together, but they lived in separate houses and it worked perfectly.

    [02:12:28.835] 

    Exactly.

    [02:12:30.585] 

    Exactly. Isn’t it Tim Burton and Helena Bonham Carter leaving in the house next to each other? Yeah. Yeah. And what’s its name? Because she lived with they’ve just moved in because I think he’s now 80 or something, that she’s 80 and they’re now living together, but they lived in separate houses. That Mary Berry, not Mary, the other one, the one with the glasses, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s it’s just individual, but what we’ve been given is this is what a relationship should look like.

    [02:13:14.305] 

    And it’s really what do I need to be happy, what you know from both sides and what’s the format of the relationship and the relationship should be in service to the individuals, not the individuals, to the relationship. Because so many people are growing up through the TV, they never really talk with the family because the family are running or to bring the money home, they’re not spending quality time with their children. They’re not really challenging. Like, what did you learn from these?

    [02:13:47.325] 

    You know, they just seemed, oh, you you you you’re never going to be how they sing. You would be stupid or something like that, some of the families think these silly things and how it’s growing up, the children who.

    [02:14:04.505] 

    We challenged yeah, we’ve grown up in our society is built for economic growth, and so I can remember I think it was the 50s when I was talking about like in the 80s, we would only work 11 hours. And if we were, I can’t remember exactly the statistics. But like if we worked 11 hours, say we would have more wealth than working 40 hours before. But what actually happens because we’ve got more time saving gadgets, more we’ve got computers, all of these technologies means that we can achieve more, but instead we’re all more and more time poor.

    [02:14:50.815] 

    And it’s because we’re trying to do more and more and more. In in amount of time and so so we’ve got this dichotomy where we’ve been pushing to be more and more productive, get things done and all of this be more productive and all these things. But at the same time, we then having to there’s this whole other thing of mindfulness meditation and slowing down and being more present to enjoy the moment. Because it’s really our mentality. Well, mentality is really what creates the distress in our life, because the stress isn’t in the night and the situation, it’s how we respond to the situation like the program, basically.

    [02:15:47.685] 

    Where we’re paying for we’re paying to learn how to be less stressed, which is something that we. We had before we became this domesticated species, we well, we did in a sense, but it’s not like we we had it because we didn’t have anything else. If you look back a couple of hundred years, people didn’t have anything to do. They had books, they didn’t have TV, they didn’t have the option. But the problem is that now we have the option.

    [02:16:28.845] 

    We still have the same mindset that they have. So they would have chosen the same thing. But what we’ve lost in terms of it is like new societies lose mental health for economic growth. But you know why, Rob? Because we want to divorce. Which is the money, the numbers, and we forget the boat humanity side. So when we go for the force, as Babytalk can see aswell, we feel the pain. When we we actually we step back because what our teacher teaching now and what the manager does now, it’s not right.

    [02:17:07.065] 

    Simon Sinek, really nicely talking about that is the manager job to set up the workers to be failed. And had them to stand up and ask them, what did you learn from? And led them to learn rather than tell them what to do. We make them to think and that’s what the teacher doesn’t do in the school. And basically, we’re not thinking we’re not teaching people to think we actually managing them, like telling them like a robot do this and what they get, they actually all the time just follow one things.

    [02:17:47.955] 

    So that’s why they got a fix mentality and Simon Sinek got really great in D.C. really nicely saying is the business’s fault why we are you know, if the family, the father or mother goes home in the evening, the family will be like seven percent less happy. But if the family members go home by the stress from the work, it’s actually sixty six percent stress taking home. So would be unhappy. So it’s related a little bit more for the jobs, but again, it’s a little bit the program was created as well.

    [02:18:24.365] 

    It’s a bit both side. It’s responsibility for the business as well and for the human side as well.

    [02:18:32.015] 

    But another layer to that is the reduction of cooperative behavior. And the emphasis on me first, me outdoing milk, pumpkin having to be number one, having to win everything, I mean, the stress on people to achieve and to be on top of the pile is beyond where we can see that by suicide in some societies, students just can’t deal with the pressure. Whereas in societies that have more cooperative behaviours, the stresses, they want the same things as us in terms of material, food and nutrition and shelter and all the rest of it.

    [02:19:22.075] 

    But it’s more it’s a shared thing in a sense, in that they’re more willing to work together rather than I have to be number one. Yeah, yeah, it’s number one also has it has implications for how you view your relationships. Is it something is it the position that you must have to be seen as being successful? Yeah, it’s lots of people are. Driving themselves to death with work to get the parent’s approval. All of these kind of we we’re buying stuff to have to deal with our feelings of lack of self-worth, to feel that we’re more worthy because we have a designer name or something.

    [02:20:19.245] 

    And to attract what we think may be the right partner, I mean, we have to bring back to that to to you know, it’s I have all the right trappings. I’m not saying anything against Americans. But have you ever been to one of those corporate affair in America and are being asked, so where did you go to school? What do you drive? Where do you live? How much do you earn and all how dare you not want to live in America?

    [02:20:57.975] 

    I mean, how could you not kind of kind of attitude, you see? And if you don’t meet any of that criteria, you how are you going to be considered to be a suitable partner? Yeah, they not a candidate for a relationship with even if there are sparks flying, you know, that can. Good. Good bye. But you know, Rob, also what I’ve seen and that’s actually related, why we are like that, how we are at the moment, because we try to help the people.

    [02:21:31.435] 

    We try to do we try to do for the children. We try to protect too much. So somebody was describing like that. It’s like, think about the eggs when the little birds is just hatching from the eggs if you have for it. But struggle to not struggle a couple of days later will pass away because we didn’t have that basic muscle memory, muscle knowledge to survive. So we have to let the struggle and that’s what we need to let people as well.

    [02:22:03.385] 

    Sometimes we need to set for the failure, but instead they are looking that as the lesson what make them stronger. They taking as the granted and pain. They should change the perspective for that. But that should come from the family childhood. Yeah, but which means that someone needs to break the whole chain. Yes. Which will be all or forgotten. Yeah. Which which ultimately I think might have when we have these discussions and ultimately leads to, you know, we have to be the one to, to change it and.

    [02:22:42.455] 

    You know, ultimately, it’s going to be a, you know, society change when we’ve changed, when, you know, individually, somebody say like that, you don’t need to change the people, you just need to be there and they will copy you because you will be the mirror for them.

    [02:22:59.795] 

    Yeah, it’s like Gandhi says, be the change you want to see or even Maria Teresa. I was saying how you can save a million people. One by one, yeah, Mother Teresa. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it all starts with the individual and the only individual we can control is ourselves. And it comes when we stop trying to control anyone outside of ourselves through. So it will enlighten us how are we going to find another enlightened person to decide who could be?

    [02:23:45.825] 

    I think yeah. I mean, I think I think that is really the problem with relationship is is firstly ourselves. And in recognizing the relationship we want and then who is the person, it’s not a person is going to be ready made, but who is the person who is willing to grow and be on that journey with me? Yes, and so it’s individual how far we’re going to go and how far and how much discomfort we’re willing to put up with in terms of ourself of being vulnerable, in terms of dealing with it relationally.

    [02:24:27.985] 

    But it starts with the individual. And then and then we can expand our. I will work with you if you are honest with me. Anybody know I know, but it’s the truth.

    [02:24:39.705] 

    You have to start somewhere. And to me, that’s I draw the line. If you’re going to be dishonest, then there is no point. I’m not going to waste the effort. You could look like a doneness. I don’t care.

    [02:24:49.195] 

    Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, yes. But if if there is honesty then I will put in the work. That’s the point.

    [02:25:01.455] 

    There is I think we all have a all points where we will not our lives, where we will not cross.

    [02:25:11.025] 

    And if we’re honest with ourselves, we we should stick to that. Because when you start to compromise and start to rationalize why you are willing to go outside of your boundaries, then you are setting yourself up, I think, for serious disappointment. Yeah, I totally agree. That’s why I think integrity is, is where all relationships like the fulcrum of where it. Succeeds or fails to stop. OK, well, thank you, everyone. Again, we’ve got late again, so anyway, we’ll have a good week.

    [02:25:52.885] 

    And next week we’ve got the government’s sound house relationships, some relationship review of that model. Have a good week, everyone. Thank you.

    [02:26:06.025] 

    Have a good week.

    Transcript
    [:

    Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. So tonight, we're looking at the science of attraction. What is it that makes us attracted to one person and not to another? So you've been in the breakout rooms.

    [:

    I think you'll find you're all Meeteetse. So just tell me if you want to join, if you've got something to say. But so we were looking in the breakout rooms about who you who you like. If you could say anyone or spend the night with anyone, who would you choose? And then looking beyond that, what was there that attracted you to that person? So does anyone want to share what they found from their breakout rooms? Yes, we liked different people, but we all found that we were attracted to the animal magnetism and their presence.

    [:

    OK, so animal magnetism as in. Some of them, yeah, their presence really we describe them as being confident and having a distinct presence about them. OK, I think I could add to that because I was in the same group, I don't mind bringing it to the floor, I think is an example in nineteen fifty eight. So I've got an interesting thing with regards to dates. So in nineteen fifty eight, if anyone remembers, in the fifties there was a very attractive actress who I found attractive and my grandfather found attractive when he was in his 20s, Elizabeth Taylor.

    [:ink Elizabeth Taylor from the:[:

    I think anyone else and also I'm interested in looking at is there a divide like any distinctions between between gender attraction and genders?

    [:

    I think I've read it before that men tend to go off, they have more visual. Well, I must say that I agree with Betty's group, the Animal Magnetism, for me, I would spend a night with Idris Elba and AJ and have gotten from Bollywood movies and Indian fans and Bollywood fans. I would spend the night with them when I want to get intellectual where maybe I'll go elsewhere. But yeah, those two, I'm OK. And so is it the looks.

    [:

    Is it the character they play? Is it something else?

    [:

    Well, in the carrot they can play different characters, but essentially there is something about them. There's presence the way they carry themselves. There's confidence. And you you don't know this for a fact, but you think that they may be interesting just to have a conversation with, but I'm not expecting them to be professor, you know, whatever.

    [:

    That's not what I'm looking for. I'm sorry if not for one night of the week. Yes.

    [:

    You just want them to look pretty for tonight. Is that it? Oh, yes.

    [:

    Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And I'd love to be entertained. I mean, it doesn't mean anything, you know, it's just that that is what I would like for that excitement then.

    [:

    Oh, no, I'll have the proper conversations, you know, the deep the deep look into your eyes or get into my brain kind of thing. Now, not for one night. I like Dustin Hoffman. I like his voice. Actually, it's got really OK. What is it about his voice. I don't know. It's just I'm not quite sure she. I don't know what it is, he's just. There's a sense there is a sense of depth about his voice when you just get a feeling that he could talk about anything and have something really interesting to say about it, and you can always close your eyes.

    [:

    Sorry, and you can always close your eyes if it's just the voice. Well, listen, not just know. I know. I'm just I'm just joking.

    [:

    Not in our group.

    [:

    We had we completely contradict what you were saying. The male janosz was definitely into the intellect, whereas Frances and myself, it was more like the attractive body, etc.. And Frances chose Chris O'Dowd, who I Googled to find out who he was. He's an actor. And I had to check. We looked really attractive on my phone, but I have to check his height because height is really important to me. And I know that sounds silly.

    [:

    And and so height was really important, but Janosz definitely went for the the the brains rather than the the attractive body, etc.. And my mind was Adrian Dumba from the line of duty. Yeah, that's okay.

    [:

    Thank you. And what are what was it about your dumba?

    [:

    It's his voice, and we both were talking about the Irish accents, so it was the Irish accent and it just seems to have a lovely way with him. And he's tall, obviously, and I hate to say it, but he reminds me a bit of my dad. So what more than somebody might well read into that. OK, thank you.

    [:

    And Granddad, he. I am sorry about that. Well, just because the policy is not working, yeah, the reason that we I was in it was interesting because the girls have completely different expectations. And then I was really interested because they tend to go for the lost and a bit of provocation for a night. And I was the complete opposite. I can't even if I said to you, you're going to go on a date with the person, I don't want to waste it by drooling all over them.

    [:

    I want no intellectual conversation with them. I want to get to know him a really deep level, but on a on a nice, calm, easy conversation. But I want to get in a more intuitive level. I don't just look at it because you've got fancy nails. It's all irrelevant. And what's the point? It's a waste of my time to spend time with them, rather sit and watch Netflix. So it was just interesting being someone else's perception of it.

    [:

    I need to be intellectually stimulating up and out with pretty girls with no brains. It doesn't work because you're going to form a relationship with someone that has to you have to be stimulated in all aspects. So, yeah, if you're on a date with someone possibly doing it, what's the point of even attentive? They're not they're emotionally or mentally stimulating because it might be physically attractive. It doesn't mean anything. Does it really just go buy a magazine or something?

    [:

    But if you're looking for a relationship to gain some sort of spiritual emotional wisdom from someone, so you want to choose your time carefully. So it was interesting how my but my preferences were completely different from can I just stop you there? And just to ask if it's not a relationship, if it's just pure physical attraction, would you still go for the intellect overlooks? I've been a really beautiful women. But that's got nothing about and I'm not saying all women are like that, but they literally have nothing about them.

    [:

    It's straight up and out of office looking women who are more bouncy and got more personality. It's not about anything. It's about someone is just a nice person, a mature, emotionally mature person. It's like I'm 40. I'm not playing games with my child. Emotionally immature, 40 years old. I'm married, by the way, so I'm not looking for anything. I found that. I found the physical age. That's why I'm married. But the thing is, relationships have to be built on something or it's pointless.

    [:

    It can't be built on lost because it looks fade. I'm not as handsome as I was 10 years ago and then another 10 years going to be even uglier. That's just life. And unfortunately, you have to find someone that you've got a deep, deep connection with because that's what it's all about. It's about creation and procreate and being with someone when you get old. So, yes, so so normally I would agree with you.

    [:

    But what we're doing tonight is just looking at attraction and trying to separate attraction from relationship so that I have someone who knows something I don't know someone that it's got more I can learn from. OK, I'd want to be with someone like that, OK? OK, thank you. And so how.

    [:

    Yeah, I was just wondering. So is the attraction the same thing as connection? Meaning that the chapter just spoke to find a way to connect with these women despite that outwardly great appearance. So. Yeah, is attraction and connections nominals. No connection is when you connected to someone, but attraction is what draws you to someone. So for attraction, how we use attraction as a definition. The definition of attraction we're using is is like magnetic attraction. So, yeah.

    [:

    So it's what attracts you because the force of attraction is attract or repel. So it's what attracts you. And I think it's Irene where you're going to have some say.

    [:

    I quite like confidence, confidence. Tom Hardy for me, I think he's just such a confident actor. And also I quite like talents like musicians and even like people with power tools. You know, guys are power tools. I know what it is. I just the command or the mastery, you know, like I've got this kind of thing, you know, we're looking at attraction and quite like, you know, guitarists who just get really into the music and does not about looks.

    [:

    It's about seeing how much pleasure they're given off to the audience and also themselves. And yeah. So that's what I like, I think. OK, thank you. Anyone else? All mine were, I think, started on physical attraction because the celebrities and you can only go off their TV or film personality. What you see generally with some of them and is that I'm not sure and fans are all just me now towards the end of the conversation, because you got that one minute show, three with Michelle Keegan, Margot Robbie and Amanda hold of and some of them.

    [:

    I have seen what they portray as their personal Magaro with a couple of films I've seen. And yes, she's a bit cheeky, a bit full. Well, that could just be a character she's portraying. But yeah, looking at it from me I it but I picked one other because I will spend a few seconds left money to help me out. The other person is briefly Catherine Ryan, who's a comedian. So I've seen her a few times, I think she can be quite funny, but I've seen another side of her personality where she had a bit of fun that she joined in the Lip-Sync show.

    [:

    So she was portrayed do the best singing, better dancing. So I saw that you don't normally see. And she dressed up as well. We don't always see her dressed up. So she was also dressed up, which I don't always see. So she's funny. So she was taking a few boxes. But yeah, I can imagine quite a few guys who say yes. Michelle Keegan sexaholics.

    [:

    OK, thank you. That um, there's something I've noticed on social media as well is and I just want to say thank you for being brave enough to to put out that dash, but a lot of men tend to not want to.

    [:

    So like you'll see, I've seen quite a few social media posts and women are quite aggressive to certain men. Like I remember seeing Chadwicks, the body coach and women and all these kind of things of like that. They found him attractive and they were imagining him being with them in the kind of comments out there. And kind of and whereas I've seen similar posts where like a similar female celebrity or something has done something like that and men have been very restrained.

    [:

    They might be different in messages, but socially, I feel. A lot of men feel they're not able to express, like, pure physical attraction, I don't know if any men feel that way, that they have to show more depth to them or something like that. But but that's kind of something I noticed. So. Did anyone else have comment, I think maybe.

    [:

    Yeah, well, my choice was Elon Musk and because I would simply really enjoy talking to him and listening to his ideas, I listen to his podcast with Joe Rogan, and it lasted for like four hours. And it was great in my group with Carlin. Richard, we did all agree that it was about intelligence. But towards the end, we did say that it's quite self-explanatory for people to say that they're attracted to intelligence is is really a no brainer because, well, obviously, you wouldn't be able to spend more than 15 minutes with just a pretty person because they would have nothing else to say.

    [:

    But to add that to add to that, I would say that looks would still be important. And I think I did express it for my personal life that when people say that I'm only attracted to intelligence and nothing else, I think they're massive hypocrites because we all choose to how a person looks as well, even though we might not admit it ever. But I personally think that and wanting to talk to someone is a no brainer and wanting to have a nice conversation.

    [:

    But also you might want to see a nice person as well, especially if that person's intelligent. They would want to talk to person, to another intelligent person. I think it's self-explanatory. Rob, do you think it's a bit of an age thing? My next door neighbors are racing car driver and he's getting a little bit older and he'd always have the Lycra girl on his arm when he was out with his mates, etc.. And this has been going on for years.

    [:

    You know, I've met so many girls. They are absolutely gorgeous. And then recently he's come to me and I have coffee with him and we'll be talking for hours. And then he suddenly said, he says, I'm getting to the age now where I want to have somebody who can have a deep conversation with because these girls, they can't talk about, like, you know, his type of music, et cetera, et cetera. So I think as he's getting older, he's realizing that maybe he does need a little bit more than the conversation than the looks and no longer needs to impress his friends.

    [:

    The other thing is over Christmas, I went through a bad time really with my partner. So I went on dating sites. I don't know if any of you've tried them and you could get even in covid I could get you know, you could get a date every Saturday, every Sunday. It would only be a walk because that's what we were restricted to, etc.. And obviously the height was the issue. So every Saturday I'd go out, you know, with a particular man that I'd met on the dating site during the week.

    [:

    And then Sunday I'd have another war. I don't know what the neighbors were thinking anyways. So then all ages and and but and we'd walk around and you talk because that's all you're be doing. And if they and there was some really lovely people you could have conversations with, but I would go and talk to my lady friends that would be walking with during the week. And I'd just say I'd love to, you know, keep going with this guy, etc.

    [:

    but there's no physical attraction. I could not get into bed with this man, et cetera, et cetera, and no chemistry. Put that word out there as well. I don't know what anybody else feels about that. So going back to what Rosamma, I think was saying about I think you need a little bit of physical attraction before you start the conversation. Maybe just put out there. Yeah, OK. Thank you for that. Yeah. So what we're looking at is attraction and so.

    [:

    The quality of a relationship is about connection, and so what we're trying to look at is the initial attraction, but also the fact of you may have connection. And so Esther Perel says that in a long term relationship. The attraction dies because of familiar familiarity. So we're looking at what does it take to keep the attraction for a relationship. So we're looking at what is an attraction and then what does it take to keep that attraction alive? Do you want to jump in?

    [:

    Cantante. And the first thing that we can use is Travis, I can't because otherwise I feel like I know that's the thing. Do not be illusions. I am not a grunt, OK? I'm a lot younger, but yeah, humor is the best one because you say you can laugh people to death if you if you've got banter and it's great you got a relationship and you're constantly, you know, my my favorite thing I get I'm married.

    [:

    Right. So and when I go on holiday with Mrs. Merkel abroad, there's nothing better than there are people watching. And it's just little stories of about people that we can say we just take it and laugh. And so much so cume is the main thing is it's being able to just laugh all the time and not take life too seriously because no one gets out alive anyway. So when you saw that you can just have a laugh with all the time, it's great.

    [:

    It's brilliant because that connection and that attraction gets stronger. So I've been married for like four, five years, but I'm in a relationship and I love her more than I've ever loved that because she looks she looks more attractive because I'm more connected to her that she'd say the same thing because she brings up something in me and I bring out something in there that other people can't necessarily do. It's like last but I said deep, meaningful relationship. I don't mean let's get into people's psyche.

    [:

    I mean, let's just be open and learn. And remember, relationships are built. They're not they're not yet. You can't just because it'll just you feel these relationships, they just the end before is because it's ended. And with the social media as well, like Tinder and all that nonsense, there's so much temptation out there. So if you haven't got a good connection with someone, you could look somewhere else. You're going to be tempted, aren't you?

    [:

    I definitely think it's important. You know, so many people say that the funds, the funds gone, the excitement is gone. So but it seems like not taking stuff too seriously. But what about when life does get serious, when we children or when there are really big issues that you need to deal with? Because having like. It could be taken from what you said, that you kind of being carefree, but there are times when someone needs someone to be able to deal with a big issue.

    [:

    So be interesting about how you've dealt with that all the time. The trouble is, is very stressful business. So I'm constantly being things popping up, which would go if if you didn't laugh, you cry. So again, it's all about perception is how you look at it. Nothin's good or bad. It's a perception that makes it so. So something happens in our life like, oh my God, this is how you perceive it. You can say, well, this coronaviruses affected my business.

    [:

    Now a lot of businesses have struggled from it. But again, it's perception said, well, let's look at it in a different way. Let's look at a more healthier way. I said, well, what can I do about it? So I invest in investing Croner Mascot's. I'll make it up to 40. So it's not about this is what you when you when you're open and honest and you've got a good relationship with yourself, which is the most important relationship you can have if you know yourself.

    [:

    And it's very difficult to to have problems because the problems don't exist. It's just the perception of it. We make it a problem. Mm hmm.

    [:generation. So I was born in:[:

    What you're not big breakfast when I was growing up in the mid to late 90s and that. But thing is, for me, attraction aside, I think friendship is really, really important. I think the whole let's just get really basic here. I think for me, having a friendship with somebody else is important for me. I don't think I will ever marry. I don't really want that commitment because I have a lot of freedom. I can do what I want to do.

    [:

    I have my autonomy. The important thing is I have my autonomy. And I think for me it's a lot about self care, because in this world we're always thinking about other people and we don't think about ourselves in a sense of self care, about thinking about ourselves and look at say, oh, you know, what might look after yourself from that. You know, we say that we have that point. So I think self care is important.

    [:

    Friendships can always last a lifetime. Marriage is not a certainty. And from my generation as a millennial, there might be some millennials out there like, yeah, we want to get married. But I think for my generation, there's no necessity to get married, you know what I mean? Because I have a lot of freedom and autonomy. So I prefer like friendships and if that makes any sense. But hey, that's just what I think. That's just my opinion.

    [:

    OK, thank you. Travis, did you did you want to finish off or buy alcohol for Burma?

    [:

    This subject so vast. And Ali, you're right, there may be people that will change, like you're the same generation as me. So we were thought, remember what the world was like before the dinosaurs come in. I mean, before this, the world shifted because the world is completely different how it was in the 80s, even the 90s. So people's perception, it's like relationships don't mean anything to these young kids. Now, 15, 16, 17 year olds, what is a relationship?

    [:

    A relationship is next. Next, next, next, next. You don't have to you don't have to make an effort relationship. You just almost objects have lost. And this Instagram and all the stupidness that people pull this makeup and lipstick. So it looks like this. Well, it's. Is that so it looks like something and then make the cleavage big and tie and big eyebrows and keep full of makeup and make their eyes big so they look more like childlike.

    [:

    It's like what are you doing, what are you doing? And then they wonder why they're not happy and they feel insecure. More young people commit suicide. That is ludicrous. And it's because they've got it all wrong. It's stupid asking questions like what is the attraction is not. Then that's just you look at something, oh, I like. It's attractive to look at people that fear. We need to know what else to say. Don't judge a book by its cover.

    [:

    And. Yeah, but Ali, what you said it's self development. Yeah, I see. My sister's really good looking and it drives me mad because she loves to gravitate towards and yet she always goes out with the wrong love because she, because she's good looking. They think she's the bimbo, she's intelligent with both of these idiots because he treats like rubbish, because she's and she pulls out their insecurities because she's pretty and all the men look at her is making her point fails.

    [:

    Boyfriends feel insecure, then they start taking out on her. So they'll be playing psychological mind games, the. Because there is also. OK. All right, thanks, Travis. Just one second, Dayanara got his hand up, but you'll be next.

    [:

    I for myself, because you are not good at liberating. So, yeah, so basically what I was going to say was I have to I agree with lead and that everybody does evaluate each other on attraction as well. I think it'll be funny to say, oh, well, they are a funny person or they're an intelligent person and now there's a certain level of physical attraction. You have to have that if you're talking about a longer term relationship. And yes, then you have to be able to connect with that person.

    [:

    Obviously, that brings in more people. Well, I think that if that initial attraction isn't there, then you can be friends with that person by all means. But it's really just going to stay as friends. If you are talking about something a more deeper, perhaps a romantic relationship, there has to be the physical attraction. Otherwise, there's there's nowhere else to go to go other than being friends. And if you're lucky, people may even find The X Factor a bit like what Travis was saying, that there is such a good connection between the two of them that there is that magic that happens between the two of them.

    [:

    Maybe you can't put your hand on it. But I mean, from my point of view, I think sometimes it can be I mean, the things kind of things that does for me sometimes accents the voice of the woman that you and I can explain why certain accents just sound very nice to my ears. I have to say, a certain type of look is attractive to me. And I'm not talking about someone being dropped that gorgeous by all means.

    [:

    I mean, obviously there are women and you look at them and you go, well, you know, but I don't think any man necessarily go out and see that kind of woman. But there everybody has a minimal attractiveness expectation. And then, of course, then you expect the personality behind it too much, whatever it is that you're expecting. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, IRA. Just just to be clear what we're talking about, we talked a lot of times about connection and what develops the relationship.

    [:

    But so we're talking about you can have a great relationship that turns into a friendship and becomes passionless. And then people, because there's no sexual attraction, the relationship loses something and then people start to look elsewhere. So what we're looking at is not just what attracts someone, it's just what attracts someone, but also what keeps that passionate sense of of relationship. So we're going to go to Diane and then I'm going to summarize some bits so that we can move on and we can look through some of the other research and develop on this as to how you can keep the attraction alive.

    [:

    Diane. Well, I just wanted to say when I spoke to the people in my room, it was really quite interesting that we all did fancy we all did fancy someone that was very attractive. And we all agreed that the people we liked was very attractive. But an attraction does matter. But before you go to any kind of connection, you've got to have some attraction. But that's what people think. But when I was 19, I was badly burned in a fire and I have a quarter of my face grafted, which isn't so obvious now, but it certainly was for about twenty five years of my life.

    [:

    But I have to say that I have had my fair share of partners despite being desperate and I was disfigured. I am disfigured. You can say I've got bitterness, you would say, but I have had my fair share. So somehow or other it although attraction does a physical attraction matters. I think it goes a lot more than that. Otherwise I don't think I have had as much good fortune. Maybe I don't need to describe it because I've had my fair share of stunning looking partners and ordinary looking partners.

    [:

    And I've had about the department that was I had a boyfriend who once dealt with a year who quite frankly, I didn't fancy at all when I first met him. But by the time we only finished because he was 20 years younger than me and he wanted a family and I just couldn't give him a family. And we otherwise I'm sure we wouldn't have finished. I'm sure of it. But I didn't have fun at all at the beginning. And to me, when we finished, he was the best looking fella since sliced bread because he was such a lovely man.

    [:

    So whilst attraction well, physical attraction matters, I think there must be more. There's a lot more than that going on. Otherwise it wouldn't have gone. I wouldn't have had you know, and I do know the people in similar boat. I mean, you know, people with physical disabilities, visual differences to sort of get together and talk about these things. And a lot of us say something very similar. OK, thank you, Diane. Okay, so really when if we look at the science, what should we look at?

    [:

    Like what if we're going to look first at beauty? Beauty tends to be symmetry. It tends to be so, for example, if both your eyes are the same, if, you know, if there's a sense of symmetry in the face, it's if things are in proportion, it's signs of EUW, signs of health. But really, if you really summed up what made someone really stunning, it's simply a familiarity. So if you took 100 people and took their faces and morph them into one face.

    [:

    That would be the most attractive face. So it's someone that's not that different from everyone else. So we kind of look at Tom Hardy and Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie and Michelle Keegan and bumped him as being. Like being special for them, for their attractiveness, but actually what makes the most attractive is the fact that they might look most like most of us. As in, their features are symmetrical, as in their they're not different looking. And beauty across cultures is very, very different.

    [:

    So in the Western world, we've got the slim figure is more attractive. In other cultures, full-bodied and slim can be unattractive in different times, being very pale, most attractive, whereas now it's like the tan look is more attractive. So. It changes, but why it changes is based on the story of what it means to us. So, for example, someone. So when we looking in genetically women, women differ at times when they're most fertile, when they're least fertile and when they're fertile, like as in when they're looking to conceive, whether they're consciously or when they're biologically ready, they tend to look for someone who's for a man who's got very masculine features, because that denotes that that that man has good genes and therefore their baby has good genes.

    [:

    Whereas when they're not, like, fertile, they tend to be more attracted to more feminine men who are maybe pretty looking but or more sensitive or looked like they would look after them more.

    [:

    So traditionally, when we look at science, the science tells us that men are more visual, that men are more attracted to looks.

    [:

    Whereas women often and someone talked about a guitar player or or something like that, women have often been attracted to power status, a man who's got special qualities. So someone was talking about the amount of the power tools and women will often say they were attracted to the man when they're doing a job, when they see them working, when they see them in the flow of competent, capable, which all plays into the idea of status being more attractive. So.

    [:

    For a man, it's generally looks and not so much the status of a woman. Like being humorous can help a man to be attractive, but less likely for a woman. So that's the science of of physical attraction. But then there's also the chemistry and Don Massola in a TED talk talks about women. Women fall in love at the point of orgasm. The height of oxytocin, vasopressin men fall in love at the point of commitment. And that's behind the advice she says it comes from her grandmother.

    [:

    The general advice that women should sleep with men straight away because when men have sex, they vasopressin drop's. So they still feel the oxytocin, but the commitment a bit, they don't necessarily commit, whereas if the point of commitment is to the point where they and I think people have alluded to that, that there might be people that you're you're not necessarily attracted to initially, but you develop feelings and then you develop an attraction like anyone who's known someone they didn't initially think of them in a romantic sense.

    [:

    But maybe six months later, after knowing them, they became attracted to them. Sometimes attraction develops from characteristics and from personality. So okay, so. Esther Perel has talked about. Desire she talks about essentially people want to things people want security, safety, security, what's familiar, what they know. But they also want danger, excitement, adventure, risk. And so this is novelty, so we have these two conflicting desires for what's familiar and for what's new.

    [:

    And so when she talked to people about couples, we should talk to couples about what when they felt most attractive to their partners, like couples that been together for a while, it was they talked about being them being apart. So they'll probably is like you miss someone when they're not there. I can't even remember what the words are, but the absence makes the heart grow fonder. And she also talked about them being radiant and confident. So when someone sees someone working, when someone sees someone up on the stage, when someone sees someone performing, so we get in patterns.

    [:

    If we see someone and eventually someone is just who puts in the band. And there's all these levels of contempts. But when we see the different side of someone, we might feel more attraction to them so she can see sort of advocates that you shouldn't be too close, you shouldn't be too intimately and emotionally close because. That elusive desire, yet the Gutman's equally have research and they would argue with data that. Gay couples that have good sex have good communication, couples that have poor sex have poor communication.

    [:

    So I think this would be interesting now if you if we look back on our past experiences. So if you think about the last few relationships and if you have, like, a bit of paper or you could do this, it's just like a graph. And think about when were you most attracted? When you least the practice, if you were to draw a graph of attraction in your last relationship, your last few relationships. The point where it is most.

    [:

    What happened there? And what happened when it dropped? Can you notice the points of the relationship? Does that make sense? OK, so I'm going to time. I mean, that question just now, you said that men fall in love with commitment. What did you mean?

    [:

    Is that what you said that was? So you don't at this. And she looked she she tallied chemistry. And so really, attraction is about like attraction in a relationship is about oxytocin, which you get from cuddling. It's about dopamine, your dopamine. But you can get those from from lots of things. And one of the things that she argues is that mothers get too much oxytocin from their children and so they don't need it from their partners. But I think she's jumped to conclusions and we'll go through this in a bit.

    [:

    So but the real thing, like when I found this from prairie voles is that prairie voles pal pair bond. But there's another type of vole that doesn't pair bond and they're almost the same. And the difference is the vasopressin and vasopressin, therefore, is thought to be the chemical that creates that connection of why, why, why species y people, pabon and vasopressin is suppressed by testosterone. And some men are high in testosterone. But men who are in relationship have lower testosterone.

    [:

    So single men have high testosterone. Men who are committed in relationship have lower testosterone. And so testosterone suppresses the vasopressin. And so she talks about when men decide, when men see the relationship differently, that they decide to commit to this, to the partner, then that is what creates the the same biochemical state that woman will get at the point of orgasm, as in women will get this from Caitlin, from kissing and at the highest point from orgasm.

    [:

    And so they'll feel this is why women tend to be more committed to like after an after sex, a woman tends to be what's the word not tends to be more bonded, more connected to a partner for a I think, 36 hours after, whereas a man is for about 12 hours. I can't remember the exact statistics, but a man is so much shorter period, so did that answer your question, Betty? Are you saying that when a man makes a commitment that makes you more attracted to her?

    [:

    He's his biochemical status have been most attractive, is when he makes the commitment? Yeah, but what drives him to make the commitment was the decision rather than chemistry. Yeah. So it's when he sees her in that light. So I would guess that he may be physical attraction is. And this is where people have talked about this so much more than physical attraction, because you physically if you're physically attracted, then the physical attraction is just about sex.

    [:

    It's lust. Where is the attraction of physical plus connection plus intelligence, plus the respect for the person has more has a different level of attraction. OK. When a man decides to commit, is it usually when he. Propose a marriage. Oh, no, no, this is when he feels the most connection. So when a man feels connected biochemically, he feels different. So it's no commitment is more a point of this is the person I want to be with so it can come before.

    [:

    You mean a formal proposal for a relationship. Yeah.

    [:

    Travis. Am I pressing the button to think of this phone as I'm doing it by phone is one point, right? What do you think of this? So attraction, right, the first thing, the reason we are attracted to someone is because we see them through our eyes. Yeah, because we experience this world with our five senses, don't we? There's no other way we can experience it. We see the world. Can you just hold that for a minute, Travis?

    [:

    Because what I want to do is I don't want to talk too much because we're going to talk in a minute. But I want rather than. I want to know what we're going to do in this way is for everyone to reflect, because in that reflection everyone's going to come to their own conclusion, able to relate it to their personal experience. And then we're going to talk about that. So if you can hold that thought when we come back, we're going to try to make more sense of it.

    [:

    But if everyone's thinking from their own personal experience. Then it's each correct in the right context for them. Yeah, but what is he what we reflected on in that? I forgot what the question is.

    [:

    OK, so let me go through again. So what are what I'd like to do is if you imagine you've got a graph X and Y y axis, right. So on this on this scale, you've got the amount of attraction that you felt. And on this scale, you've got as the time as the relationship went on. So if you were initially hugely attracted. And you're attractive for maybe six months and then it dropped and then it dropped and then maybe there was a peak.

    [:

    That's the graph you draw. If you weren't initially attracted, but then you your attraction grew, you would draw like that. So attraction comes and goes. So over the period of the relationship, over a year, over two years, over three years, over five, over 10 or 15, over 20. How did the level of attraction go? Does that make sense to everyone? So this is once this is already. This is from the beginning of a relationship, but this is the beginning of meeting somebody.

    [:

    Yeah, I mean, you can do it whichever way makes most sense. Whichever way you interpret it makes no sense to me. Like you could be insanely attracted to someone. I think it was Travis talked about being really attracted to someone. And then because they had no intelligence, they had no conversation, there was a lot more attraction went down. So we're looking at drawing the graph of the attraction in your past relationships and then try and look at.

    [:

    What happened, why did the attraction drop down? Why did they increase? OK, so if we do, I'm going to set a timer for two minutes, we're going to stay here and two minutes for you to reflect just on your experience. You can turn the camera off if you feel best and. Then we're going to talk about it so everyone can clear what we're doing. We're back in the room. There we are. There you go.

    [:

    Over there. Well done as well, Rob.

    [:

    I might have to go out about 9:00. So this is nothing personal. I've just got to go at that time.

    [:

    OK, no problem. OK. OK, so who. I would like to share their experience of their finding from their reflections. What we find out in our group. The woman are more attracted when the men out of a. For a certain times and men are more attracted than the woman are close to them, or they get the physical. Touch the cuddle, the hugging. OK, so let's go. Did you go any further into what was it when they were away?

    [:

    And one of them, they had the breakup and after six months later, they get back together. OK, so it was like psychological distance. Yes. And the other one was more about the story when it's going to work the bus on. So an hour away or sometimes you see how it's working, but from the far distance. OK, so the dynamics of the relationship have changed, and so the relationship was working better when they were away and so they felt more attracted.

    [:

    Yes. From the ladies sides. Okay, so there was friction in the relationship that was damaging the attraction? Yes. Yeah. And from the men's side, it was being closer. Was that as in they felt more loved because there was that emotional closeness rather than physical, physical and a bit of emotion as well. So things were going well there. There was intimacy. So the men felt loved so so like as in there was physical touch through sex.

    [:

    The men physically felt close because I felt emotionally close, yes. OK, yeah. OK, thank you.

    [:

    I think virata I'm like saying your name right. Yeah.

    [:

    When I'm sure it's fine. Nobody can pronounce my name properly anyways. Well to me it was I was the most attracted when that person was being vulnerable with me. So when they were opening up about not necessarily, you know, being like mopey or anything, but just admitting that they're not doing absolutely great, which is, I think, really hard for men to do sometimes because they feel like they need they feel the need to be strong and the least attractive when there was that lack of communication.

    [:

    So when you ask a person if they're OK and they're like, oh, when you ask a person how they are and they say, oh, I'm OK, but they're not OK and you know that they're not OK, but they're not telling you. And it just it really it just turns me off massively because I feel like that there's a a distance between me and that person and the same goes for new connections as well, not just not just like old friends or anything.

    [:

    If I meet a person for the first time and they tell me something really genuine and honest, they could go from six to 10 really quickly. They could become really attractive to me, even physically, just because they opened up about their their struggles or anything, really. And I was talking with the guys as well, and they they found that I found that they they found different, different kind of aspects. We discussed five love languages as well.

    [:

    So maybe they're going to maybe they weren't want to share. But yeah, five love languages kind of intertwine so that if I can just pick a little bit more into that. So we talked about connection and we talked about connection. There's been like layers of an onion and you like the beginning or you see someone once on a dating site is a profile and they just add this to the person. And as they tell you more and like how you get to know more and you get to know more about them, it's like peeling the layers.

    [:

    And the more that you get to know them, the more connected you feel because you get connected to deeper into them. And so I think what you're saying is the more that you were connected, the more that they let you in because the connection develops as much as someone shoeleather where someone has a barrier. And I don't want you in any further. They want to tell you what's going on or they won't, you know, be vulnerable with you.

    [:

    So as that connection is developing, you felt attraction alongside the connection. Is that. Well, it was more like it's it's not just the connection, it's just like that the person is just simply being genuine, that they're being an actual person instead of being. And every day I call them and they just feel like a non playable character that you just approach. You ask them how they are and they're like, oh, I'm OK. But you say you are OK to other 15 people in a day and you might not be OK.

    [:

    So and I always feel like what's the worst that could happen if you told me that you're not OK, what am I going to judge you?

    [:

    Yeah, thank you, Rob. Yes, I can be connected to you because you told me something that resonates with me and I feel empathy and all the rest of it, but I'm just not attracted to you. So I could want to hug you, I could want to, you know, hold your hand and but there is no attraction. It's a connection because of a circumstance that you have related that I connect, that resonates with me, but I'm not attracted to you.

    [:

    OK, so. Sure, a quick show of hands who can fill because you can feel connected to friends without feeling a sexual attraction is what some are saying, who like quick show of hands, who feels. Does there need to be a physical attraction, plus the connection and plus the other elements? And who doesn't need the physical attraction? You mean for a relationship to feel more attracted, like because I think when we talk about there's a danger that we talk about humor, we talk about vulnerability, authenticity, but.

    [:

    Comedians don't always are always attractive to every woman, you know. A lot of comedians have trouble with women because there's a difference between making someone laugh and making someone laugh and feel attracted. So like, for example, like I who like him, he finds humor attractive. OK, who would feel a sexual attraction to Mr. Bean? I'll take my hand just in case.

    [:

    So do you see there's a type of humor like banter increases attraction. Slapstick. Jobs attraction, like he would like if anyone can remember Frank Spencer or Lee Evans, yeah, that kind of character.

    [:

    But what I'd say is sometimes somebody might judge somebody and say, oh, he's a four out of 10 nonphysical. But it goes on for five or six when he starts making me laugh. Or whatever his story is, whether it is comedy is still that boozy or because either it's the about the comedy, whatever makes you smile, all laugh that still. Well, what do you still say a four or five out of 10 is still not enough. It still might boost them as a rating, as a person combining their attraction with, you know, with a sense of humor.

    [:

    It still might not be enough with social media. Some people might go, Johnny Vegas is a three at one time. And it makes me laugh because if I'm outside, but still I won't go to. But again, you might still see a guy who's a owlets and you discover you like his personality or his sense of humor, and that makes benign.

    [:

    Yeah, so it make it so anyone else got anything to talk about from there in terms of the.

    [:

    Reflexion. I think one of the things that.

    [:

    Comes into into how things change to for speaking as a female, it's trust and that can affect that graph that you're talking about and you can have that reaction. You can have all the other things. And that one's mistrust comes into that. It shifts that that graph is going to change until the. And I know that that I'm speaking from personal experience. OK, I'm talking about the first time you see your husband come in, help with lots of kids on his on his body.

    [:

    You know you know that he's been elsewhere. So that does shift and shift your or whatever it is you feel to think are thing. You know, no matter what you want to do or say, it's a reality. You have to acknowledge that that is a barrier.

    [:

    Yeah. Yeah. And so the graph must change. So I just put some common things out there to them. Fisher talked about their being free lives there, being a sex life in the romantic drive and being the drive for companionship, love and sex drive. She said we dispersed so we could feel a sex drive any time somebody is interested in reproducing. The romantic drive is taking that general attraction and focusing it all on one person. So it's an obsessive kind of what we term love.

    [:

    I think a lot of people to call that love, but that only has a shelf life of about two or three years, which is why naturally. So unless she says that evolutionary, that's long enough to reproduce and stick around for the time when one infant needs you most until they're about two or three and but that drops and a lot of people feel that drop and then feel like, oh, well, I'm not in love anymore. Where what she's saying is actually the deep companionate love is is developes.

    [:

    That's slower to develop to where the romantic love drops like that. On the graph, the companionate love develops and Jed Diamond talks about the five stages of a relationship and being most couples break up on stage three where the actual where the curve goes down because of the stresses of whatever the relationship. But once you're able to get past only work, if the couples stay together, then develop. So you get the eight year olds that walk around, you know, hand in hand.

    [:

    And so there's the honeymoon period. And someone mentioned about the seven year thing. So I think once I think there's a number of reasons, but there is some statistical evidence, but it's not actually seven years since actually early than most relationships. The danger point is about four years, which coincides with Helen Fisher's research. So then for a lot of people, it's the stress. And Travis talked about this earlier and he talked about like, you have to deal with life.

    [:

    You know, stuff is going to happen. And one of the problems is that we don't individually. Often we can't deal with our stress, often with we we go to work, we consume. We've got for redundancy. We're coming home. We still got the stress of our work. And so then we're interacting with our children, with our family like that. That stress means that we're not really being a great dad or husband or whatever. And so that then creates more friction in the relationship.

    [:

    So also, you've got pressures of relationships. You have children. Suddenly the whole dynamics are changed. Maybe a parent feels there's no time for them because the child's going to love or maybe someone's looking for more a change in the relationship. And maybe one's not mature enough. Quick. There's more stress. There's more you're more tired. Your you've got less capacity. And so what happens for a lot of relationships is that couples just get embroiled in the domestic drudgery and they have no time for them.

    [:

    And so you then go through and all you've got to talk about are the jobs that the house needs doing the kids, what's going on with the kids. But there's no actual relationship left over like a business partnership of running the house.

    [:

    So then there's also things like talked about, like the loss of trust, loss of respect, the friction, the resentment, because there's a a conflict or a problem that hasn't been dealt with. Someone keeps spending money, someone, you know, like someone's always out with their friends and never home. All of these things are niggles that come into the relationship. And so this is why I think this is what the Goldmans are really talk about. They talk about when people can't deal with stress.

    [:

    And a couple can't do deal with stress there, all of these things break up the connection and said the attraction is gone because. Attraction is all about a story. It's it's about the story that you're telling yourself about your partner and one of the things that that distinguishes good relationship couples in a good relationship from bad relationship is, is that a couple in a good relationship are delusional, as in they are quote. They they attribute. Their partner to be actually better than they are, and so there's this kind of mindset where you sort of consciously put your partner on a pedestal and.

    [:

    Delude yourself that they're better than the reality so that you feel more loving about them. So there's that. And if you don't do that. And you feel like my wife doesn't respect me. You know, they don't see what I'm doing. She's all the time. Oh, she's worried about the children and not me. Then that story means that you feel less appreciated, you feel less connected, you feel less attracted. And then that's when Dorothy from accounts, who shows you the attraction and affection and respect suddenly becomes much more attractive to argue with you on that story.

    [:

    And their personal perception says, sorry, Betty, if you just that would you say I finished and now come to you, OK?

    [:

    So it's like this. No one is looking at the same time. So yeah, I think I agree with you in the sense that certainly for me it was it was more difficult when there was that connection that gone and whether the emotional connection had gone for whatever reason, then transition from the start up. And it becomes difficult to say that. I mean, as it happens with us, I mean, not not always cheated on each other, but I think that the physical attraction of a conversation by the.

    [:

    And that was a direct result of the lack of communication. OK, yeah, it's hard to feel attracted to someone when you don't feel like I think he can't remember, he talks about the difference between men and women that men need to feel attracted. Men, men respect generally, generally speaking, men are more looking for respect, women are looking for love. And if you don't feel respected as a man, I think it's hard to then feel attraction because if if, like your partner always looks at you.

    [:

    And I think this is by far as if your partner looks at you with contempt and criticism and says, why haven't you done this right? If you haven't done this, then you're going to feel you're not going to feel so attracted. Whereas if you feel loved, if you feel supported, and if you feel like your partner trusts you and respects you, then you're going to feel more attracted. If he was someone else, who is the Daftari was who was just like someone else at work where you feel an attraction.

    [:

    We're not blaming Dorothy for everyone's relationship loss of attraction. So there was something else I wanted to bring in as well is. So that's the Paral talks about the problem, she says that the problem is, is when you become too familiar to Encima, you lose the desire because the nature of desire is that desire is focused that you don't have you don't like. We desire an iPad until we've got one. We desire the latest iPhone because we don't have it.

    [:

    But when we have it, we don't desire that. We desire something else. And so the perennial problem in a relationship is that. We desire someone until we have them. So when we been with someone, let's say, three, five years, you're not feeling that same desire for them because they've become familiar. And this is where people will often say that they've got in a relationship and then someone's got complacent and they're not interested anymore. They make an effort by that.

    [:

    So they. So familiarity breeds contempt, and so where I think as the parade has gone wrong is I think she's taken and she's simplistically said, OK, you need to leave off the emotional intimacy. So that you still feel desire for your partner, whereas I think what the Gutman's talk about is really is when you're not dealing with differences, when you're not dealing with the stress of everyday life and the stress as a couple. And I think it's about and this is what we were talking about, rather, where when someone shows you something new.

    [:

    Now, we've talked when we talked about connection, that there's this idea that, you know, someone off the five years and yet we still find new depths to ourselves after 20, 30, 40 years, because you can say that we know each other. We're always finding things that we we try new things and we're scared that we don't we're not going to be able to do not going to be able to do them. And then we find we can and we find new levels and new skills and so that.

    [:

    That level of finding about ourselves, if we have the same curiosity and interest in finding about someone else and developing that connection, and of course, assuming they allow it, they allow us and they have the ability to be vulnerable, we have that communication. There's always more that we can find about someone. So it's about being able to not think that we know someone because we've seen them about. But be curious and be interested in how are they changing because people do change, like people will blame someone changing in a relationship and say, well, we grew apart or actually you grew old.

    [:

    People grow. If you don't grow, then there's going to be a lack of interest and a lack of passion, because if all you do is you sit on the sofa and you never really talk. About anything, but you just kind of watch TV and then you are going to be bored with each other. But if you find something interesting and there's still curiosity, there's still something that you can have a desire about because it it it's the same person.

    [:

    So Joseph Campbell talks about the hero with a thousand faces. And it's really he's talking about a story that is one universal story. But every hero is different to the structure of the hero's journey is the same Star Wars, Matrix, The Hobbit, all of these have basically the same structure, but the hero is very different. And if we look at a partner with a thousand faces, what we've got is understanding that the person we know, like if anyone's been in a relationship with someone, they might know them very well and then they get to see them in what context?

    [:

    And a completely different or you see new depths to someone when they when they do something, when they perform on stage, when they or whatever. There's all these different ways that we haven't seen the partner and if we're able to. Have that curiosity and that connection and the relationship that enables that continually gained new depths, then we have the ability to have desire because the dynamics have changed. But that obviously takes more work. I'm sorry, Betty, you've been waiting very patiently.

    [:

    Sorry. Yeah, I was wondering about the line between a story and an interpretation. You saying some want to go about stuff happens and it's the story you tell, but what if you're just responding to what's happening? Awesome, and you are, but you're responding in the way that you make sense, because if something happens, so when a couple is in conflict. The same thing has happened like this thing has happened, but one sees one side of the story and one sees another side, so there's the objective reality of what's happened and then there's the subjective reality of what someone makes it mean to each other by.

    [:

    So the interpretation depends on the story that you already have in mind. Does that make sense? Yeah, OK. Richard, I'm sorry, tell me if this is taking out, of course, but given what you just said about oboists, looking for new lawyers in the person or keeping the curiosity, does that also suggest almost that to the idea that you can almost build attraction with anybody? Because because it sounds like it's much, much more a mind, a mindset.

    [:

    I mean, you could be with somebody that has it could be somebody that has lots of debts and lots of growth and potential. And you don't take any time or interest to understand it. Equally well, because it sounds it sounds like a. And I think there was a little bit of this when I watched the video that a lot of this is is is your attitude then suggests. In a sense, it's you could build that attraction with a lot of people.

    [:

    Yes, well, I think when you look at what attraction is. It's really complex and it's people are attracted, so. People of that attraction and generally men, typically quite basic and quite simple, whereas when when people have looked in remember the book, but when people looked at women like Fancy's, they're much more in debt for much more descriptive. And I think this really comes down to you about it's really like an outcome of patriarchy and conditioning and all these kind of things.

    [:

    So if you look at like 50 Shades, like that took off because. If it triggered something in a lot of women, and I think when you look at what that really triggered was a lot of women have been given the story that they're not allowed to enjoy sex. And so if they enjoy sex, they're asleep. But when you're in this kind of romantic scenario and you fall for this one and this this man is so confident and domineering that he takes control, it's OK for you to have desire because he's drawn out.

    [:

    So it's it's so women more often have or not often there are many women who have desires of. Like. Kind of like like a stranger role or someone where it's not them going along with it, but it is under some level of force or blackmail or something like that. And what that is about is by what I see now is that they then make it okay for them to have the desire because it's not them doing it, but it's something happening to them.

    [:

    I don't know, like I'm a man talking about this from a logical perspective. Really? Really. Really. Yeah. It's it's. So there's a lot of like I can't remember the book, but it's there's a lot of about the colorfulness of women's desire and it's about domination. Yeah. And it really comes from like the patriarchy. I'm trying to remember all this, but patriarchy, because it's not okay to like sex because that makes you a slut.

    [:

    So if someone else. Like the forces, you then it becomes OK because it happened to you. Fifty Shades of Grey reminded me so much of Minassian boobs, I could not finish the book. Sorry, but Mills Boon has been popular with that kind of hero and I don't know if any other women, but I read that when I was 13, 14, you I mean, I went to a girl's school, your height, your Masamune in your thing and you it around the corner at 13.

    [:

    That's not an adult. I mean, I'm sorry. And Fifty Shades of Grey. It was just about. You're right, though. It's about giving you permission to be here to explore yourself, which I find a notion that is really hard for me to swallow.

    [:

    But I accept it. But it doesn't make it any less. I don't know what the word I'm looking for right now, but I find I find it. I think that as you're right, as you're correct in that women have been brainwashed by society that we need to be you know, in some tribes, you bring up the sheet after the wedding and with the blood tissue that was consummated and all of that kind of stuff. And as we are and what have you in the virginal girl until she's taken by the man.

    [:

    But when do we get to a point where a woman can acknowledge her sexuality and speak about it openly without the labels of the slut and the and the etc. and what have you and so forth and the harmless. And will not necessarily lead to jumping into bed, but it's a song and a dance, which brings you both pleasure and what have you and all of the things in between that you're allowed to do. Well, I think freezing forward or less than I think.

    [:

    Intellectually and consciously, they can. But what you've got is you've got different levels of operating. So we are so lucky if this conditioning and there's a whole level of Christianity and there's level of everything that you've grown up with. And so intellectually, you can say that it's the same thing. It's like the fairy tale framework is the. Consciously, we may say that we don't agree with that, but. On the terms of what we operate on, that we do.

    [:

    And if you look at like the mills and Boon and things is really a continuation of Beauty and the Beast and those kind of. Things where which I think is kind of like if you look and you could trace the lineage of all of those things. Which plays into the idea of. Sometimes into go ahead, sorry, go ahead, go ahead, which really just plays into the idea of. Of women being. Yeah, Benmore passive. And so women contribute to this discussion by also being unfairly critical of their fellow women.

    [:

    Sometimes, yeah, yeah, because, yeah, yeah, which which reinforces it.

    [:

    Yeah, and and I think probably. Yeah, I think probably some of them sometimes the status and feeling is more about for other women than for for men. Sorry, Karl, you've been very patient. Most insiders have to say I was wondering when you spoke earlier about some kind of like reasons for relationships and different phases. Is it possible that you've moved into a more what did you call a friendship, kind of companionship? Can you ever get back to that relationship or is it like a crack pipe?

    [:

    Once it's done, it's done? Or can you can you move back to that level?

    [:

    And have you have you ever been in a job and not like that? Yeah. And have you then found something in it that you regained your passion for it? What specific one, but yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's always possible, I think the nature of relationships is up and down. You will lose attraction, you will gain attraction. So, yeah, it's possible. So, yeah, I think I don't know if anyone wants to to speak if they lost the traction and regain their.

    [:

    Is possible if you working on it on a daily basis, but you need to work in The Daily Beast because if you stop for a long time, it will take a long time to catch up after. And I don't think nobody will wait that long. It's the same venue stop doing, Jim. It will take eventually a couple of weeks to catch back for the same muscle size. Your your memory, your mind, it's not losing that thing, however, you've continuously have to do every single day.

    [:

    That's one way that you can look at is if you've ever you've ever really been in conflict with a partner and. Like, there's no attraction, you just, like, focused on this conflict, and then when that conflict is gone, how do you feel immediately if you resolve that? How do you feel immediately the problem? By just solving the. That issue, it would want help. Because that's actually trigger you from the past something, so you need to solve the issues in the past.

    [:

    Because otherwise it will come back again, again and again will hit you. So you need to go deeper on that and to solve much deeper issues in the past. And that's when it's coming. The communication to understand the other person, to not let me just say, oh, yes, that was no, it's actually much deeper than tell me more about. Definitely in terms of a relationship, but in terms of attraction, there are couples that have really passionate relationships that are based on a lot of drama of falling out and then breakup sex and then falling out and breakup sex.

    [:

    So, yeah, you can get back the attraction. But like Janell says, in the long term, you have to be able to to develop the relationship. And the ability to deal with the differences by stealth Lucy. I have more the question I'm just wondering, like I haven't been in a relationship which would be past six months, six or seven, but I'm wondering what other things people think that the couples should do in the honeymoon phase or when they are like so much in love to make it last?

    [:

    Like, is there something that's there is like a pattern that if you do this at the start, then you will develop such a connection that it's more likely to get to that company place and you're going to stay together? I, I think really that yeah, ideally in that time you would build the ability to have the communication so that you're able to have open and honest communication. You deal with the differences and. I think if couples had the expectation that they were going to hear problems and knew that it's inevitable and it's not just something that's happening because they've lost attraction or connection, then they would be able to prepare for it.

    [:

    So it's it's really going deeper in the connection. With each other and open in that time, when you feel when you have that open and honest communication that you're able to. Then be able to maintain that past problems. Yeah, that's what I was thinking, and I don't have the firsthand experience. I think one of the problems that relationships have is that people get together at the peak of their attraction. And because of that. When that attraction drops, they then feel that love has gone, what they're calling love is really attraction.

    [:

    And so when that attraction drops, they don't think there's anything left, follow them. Whereas if you recognize that that was that was like an initial thing because your. You're going to change how you feel about someone when they're when they're familiar to you. And so if you're able to develop that. Develop the relationship at that time. Then you can deepen and strengthen it. Sorry, Lacey. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think I agree with that.

    [:

    I just need a personal experience to know for sure, but hopefully you'll have some version. OK, we have to come back and let us know. Yeah, it's been seven months, but we are still in the honeymoon phase.

    [:

    OK, so yes, it's your last and then we will last beyond that.

    [:

    Yeah, it's they like the body, have rhythms like we have a circadian rhythm every day, that there's times when we physically feel more tired, when we physically feel less tired. And a couple also has a rhythm and you have a rhythm and it's it's knowing it's recognizing how you have lunch, when to do certain things and recognizing when each of you forceful, slower so that you can you can know this is when you stop writing because they're just not happy generally as opposed to not happy with you.

    [:

    Because oftentimes we feel unhappy in the relationship because really we're happy, unhappy in ourselves, and even if we were alone and we were single, we'd be unhappy. But because we're unhappy, we're looking for an excuse for why we're unhappy and we blame the partner.

    [:

    Yeah, I think we have our downturn's in the lockdown, but in general, like the connection is very strong, like the communication. So we don't blame each other or anything, but we are having each of us is having a hard time.

    [:

    Yeah. Can I give space out to people? OK.

    [:

    But how does one recognize when one is blaming the other party? For something that is actually. Driven from within you. Because some people in the other party, the partner, may recognize that this is the case, it's nothing to do with them, but then how do you explain that to the person who is accusing or. Thinking, thinking that that that that that is the reason questions the questions I had this issue, somebody was accusing me with something and I just ask what make you to feel that and actually start opening up?

    [:

    And we find out she just had to feel stories behind and that was the reason why she assumed the spot. It's actually similar to me. So we find out actually she's a very strong person because she's able to work out every single night even after that. Scary stories. I think for us, it's also kind of just like talking through the problem and looking for help. Like if I tell him about my problem, it's like he doesn't feel blamed for it.

    [:

    If I tell him it's because of something else and we talk for it and I more like seek help with him or seek connection rather than, like, ventilating. It's a side effect of the problem. I would be just annoyed. I think it's really about brutal honesty. We lie to ourselves so all the time we kind of.

    [:

    So I always use this example. But the die industry is so big because we lie to ourselves, because when people are tracked about what they've eaten and what they said they've eaten, it's very different in the same way, like the destruction of human is to feel good and we try and change anything that doesn't feel good. So we buy more women unhappy and we don't we don't buy more. We don't say, oh, I'm unhappy. So I'm going to buy this.

    [:

    We say, oh, I need this. I deserve this. And so all of these things are because of how we operate.

    [:

    And so all of our problems stem out of the way that we operate and and what's between what we do and what we feel is or what's between the reality that we have. And what we feel and then what we do is the narrative, which is which is like our operating system, is that we're going to. We make sense of there's something called cognitive economy, which means basically we try to make sense of the situation using as little cognitive resources as possible, just cognitive economy or cognitive efficiency, and essentially is to conserve our thinking.

    [:

    And so what we've done is we've grown as a society. We have more and more and more packed into the same amount of time. So we build genetically built for thousands of years ago and we built for like caveman lifestyle. And yet we've got Facebook, Instagram, and we've been bombarded with all of these different bits. So, like everything now is so technical that you have to read the instruction manual to know how it works. And most of us operate and stuff without really knowing how well our washing machines do, dishwashers do.

    [:

    And we just have basically what we do. And so we shortcut by making sense of that. And so part of the way that we do is by deleting, distorting and generalizing and we make whatever makes sense, the easiest that fits with how we generally expect things to be. And so that means we're blaming a partner. So it's recognizing in ourselves, are we above the line or below the line? When we're below the line, we're going to blame our partner.

    [:

    We're going to try and force them to do what makes us feel better. If it's the partner, then you can point out. But whether they believe it or not is down to them. So it depends on the relationship that you have, the ability that you have to have that communication. Now, initially, if they're below the line, they're probably going to react and try and dismiss or whatever. Now, maybe the people who work in different ways, some people need like, OK, I need to go and think about it.

    [:

    And then I go, yeah, it was me. I was being a dick. Sorry, some people still want me and some people will be like, nah, it's still you because they don't want to look. So it depends on the relationship and it depends on the partner. So that's quite a long answer. But it makes sense.

    [:

    I was just going to mention just any of your thoughts on balance and communication, because, you know, I agree with you that it is about honest phone calls splitting. I use the word intellectually honest communication, but also you want to have fun, you know, if you're with somebody. That's right. We need to sit down. We'll have a chat about this, about every single thing. Does it not drain the lifeblood out of the dynamic? Somewhat.

    [:

    And I guess the answer to the question is, perhaps I'm saying something too simplistic is that you find the right time, the right moment, and it's all about delivery. But where would you say you'd strike some sort of balance between having that debt yet still that that playfulness, the balance and talked about chemistry and quantum. So for me, what springs to mind is the difference between logic and emotion. So you deal with problems with logic. But.

    [:

    If it's all logic, then there's no fun, there's no connection, there's no feeling. So if the feeling is there developed the feeling, if the feeling isn't there because of a problem, then the logic is going to be that the solution is going to be through logic. But as soon as you've got dealt with the problem, then it needs to be back to emotion and funny is emotion. So if you respond with fun to something as serious, like Travis was talking earlier about, you know, like, yeah, you've got to have fun.

    [:

    And that's why I was going a bit deeper, because you can't be fun because someone who's all fun is also carefree and their life is chaotic. And so that doesn't work. So, yeah, it's really it's knowing how to respond, which is an hour more than. But it's the problem, but, yeah, it's why it's not because you need to have that kind of logic, but also wrapped up in fun as well, because we need we need fun, we need emotions, and we need the ability to develop a future.

    [:

    But all three are important. I sort of felt you can probably have fun if there is, like unresolved problem, like in general, and also resolving the problem kind of makes you closer as well. Like it's the deeper thing I am, at least myself seeking in the relationship.

    [:

    So, yeah, definitely. I think if you look at problems, problems are also an opportunity, like it's cliche that was in Chinese, I think probably an opportunity to the same sign and. Really, what it's about is Travis was talking about us and it was about it's really about how you navigate some relationships really aren't about lets people talk about it like there's a formula and it's kind of like this. But this process really relationships aren't really the VP kinds of relationships.

    [:

    It's not about the other person. It's not about you and the person. It's about how you navigate life. And part of that is about how you navigate problems. And if you like, a lot of people will avoid problems and try and do everything to avoid having the problem and then going to have a problem crushes everything. But really, it's about. Knowing that there's a problem and a problem is just means there's something in the way that you see the world, there's something in your skills and or there's something in like you even need to develop a skill.

    [:

    You even need to develop resources or you need to develop a different way of seeing things.

    [:

    In my personal experience, what I seen, you need to watch out the tensions. Souness, when you realize the tension is very high, you have to drop it with the joke. You have to banter it and you might come back other days. Ladies are very good with that. They really try to giggling and all these kind of things. They are really low when it's the best for them. You just need to watch out for their eyes. And if you see that, you can easily learn how to navigate, to bring that emotion closer, to build up, but that it's no good and bad in these you know, you can't make it right.

    [:

    You need to read it. You need to be there with your five senses that it's no manual for this. It's your authenticity. You need to feel it. Seat. I can't describe it either way. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's an art. And if you look, I think the idea of a graph is really good in the sense of that for your partner. You really need to know when they're down, how do you bring them up when they're angry?

    [:

    How do you resolve that when they're sad? How do you how do you do that? And then it's a bit like being an orchestra for each others, for each other and watching the graph of their emotion. And so it's not taking things on. So typically we take things and this is part of like when we talked about connection, people don't go deeper. They're looking superficially. And so they're looking he did this. She did this. And they're assuming I would feel this and that, where really being curious, being interested means that you look at the person, it's kind of like the Matrix and you don't look at the person, but you look at their emotional graph.

    [:

    And then when you recognize them there, they've had a bad day at work. They're feeling bad. They're worried about their job, they're worried about whatever, that this is what's driving their behavior. So if I can address that. It's going to help them feel better and then we're going to be better, like we're going to be better if that makes sense.

    [:

    You remember some time ago we were talking about men like to fix problems when they see what they want to do to fix it. I think what we're talking about now is a clear indication of not needing to fix anything specific, but recognizing there is an issue that needs some attention and attention, maybe just support on your part, because it's not something that you necessarily need to fix. But then that brings comes and brings me to think that what it is is actually seeing the person.

    [:

    And just like what you're talking about, it's seeing the person through the different phases and recognizing what they are. What they mean, and so the five love languages and men are from Mars, women from Venus. Those things are really about on going a little bit deeper. But rather than where they're broad stroke, you know, everyone has five categories. Everyone into two categories is really about understanding beyond that, what is individual to this person and then being able what do they need?

    [:

    Do they need support that they need? And like so the thing with men want to give advice is like every someone is learning how to pronounce him with a hammer, sees everything as a problem when they hit with a hammer. And it's now is having the full range of full tool kit and knowing. And that's really about. You can only know that from communication and time. And this is where the connection can get deeper in the right relationship because you understand how to deal with that, which then takes you deeper and deeper.

    [:

    Sometimes it only needs a back rub. Yeah, yeah, but in the sense of yeah, once you have when you know, when you can read the person and know exactly. OK, that's just a bad look how much time that's saved. And that's when the like communication can get so much deeper because you don't need to keep covering the same basics that you don't need to small talk because you can get straight into the more meaningful things. Sandra, to go back on about when she was asking when, you know, somebody is blaming, you just have to simply watch out their words, because whenever what in my personal experience, even if I talk with my teammates, well, they do have a problem.

    [:xperience, and I coach around:[:

    But again, this doesn't mean a 100 percent will be obese because everybody individual different emotional feeling, and that's when it's coming, the men as the rock solid. And it can be take out the emotion level, so because we are asked to meet or we think sometimes that emotion from other person as the man, we should stand up as the solid rock and pick out if the person in that bad emotion level by making bantering, just throw a Pruitt's or something.

    [:

    And you literally you take out from that emotion of a like a shock and you start laughing. So you actually put in a different emotion level. Or just simply, you know what, I don't know how we can solve this, but I'm here to support you and just trusted the person, we'll find a solution by giving all this advice. It's actually diversity's what you can do as the man, because Boatman's doesn't want our help by fixing just I'm here.

    [:

    Hold your hand. Availability. Support you, I think that's one of the solution, what I see, I think we. I think that that's very true and I think it's. You talked about also what kind of came to mind when you when you first started talking, is that. People will tell you exactly what they need, like people's words. Tells you what they see. So when people talking about seeing red, that's probably literally what happens in their mind when they talk in the metaphors.

    [:

    If you can use the same metaphors, it's awe and really listen is like their words will paint you a picture of what they're there, that what they're doing. So when I talk to people in my head, what I'm really doing is kind of walking around in their head because they their words tell me what they say, what they feel, and they tell you how to to make sense of it. And so there's something else from from what you've said is also the strongest.

    [:

    Emotion always dominates. So in any interaction, there's two if there's two different emotions, the person who's strongest in their emotion is going to change to the other one. So if someone's really angry. The most people get angry with them because when someone's angry, they're going to hit every everything you're sensitive about, they're going to try and pick on anything to get a response to try and hurt you if you're able to stay calm, to use humor or whatever you use.

    [:

    But if you stay and say, you know, like I'm there for you or I still love you or whatever, that's going to dissipate the anger, whoever is most strongly. Firmly entrenched in their emotion will be the one that dominates the interaction. So if you're able to stay strong for someone, regardless of what it seems like on the surface. That's how you change their state. Sometimes I use the pillow, you know, this really helps that also indicates that you have faith in the relationship.

    [:

    To be steadfast, yeah, and the reason why a lot of people can't do it is because their faith in the relationship, faith in themselves, that taking things personally is kind of quite thin. It takes a lot of. It really goes back to last week was the second one, Bentinck, take things personally and yeah, but it's hard not to. And everything in the way that we're given to operate makes us take things personally, it makes us react to momentary things, is the same thing with a problem that problems will happen.

    [:

    But. In the moment, we think it's all a dramatic. But over a long period of time is just a blip, and if we recognize when we're in that blip, that it is just a blip. Then we don't take it so seriously. For me was just like a lesson, you know, one of my workers was telling the sun, when it's raining, it's like Hassan, it's like two years old and it's raining, hit his knees.

    [:

    And after he's kissing and continue running as the adults, what we do. Oh, the complaining about everything we forget to be child. We so much restricted, we want to protect our personality, our body, for no reason, we conserved our energy for our emotions. And we not leave, we not feel bably. But OK, if there is a particular issue is becomes repetitive in a relationship. That to me would speak to something that's probably more deep rooted, deep, a deep seated issue that may even have serious underpinnings that would require.

    [:

    Not just the usual treatment it needs, it would to me, it needs careful, I don't know what what you would call it, but some examination, some some something that that deals with the issue. Otherwise it will continue to to come up. Yes, it is. So. So this is this will work like this way of reacting will work in a good relationship. But if there's problems, like if the other person there's a perennial problem, the other person is not interested, the relationship isn't working for other reasons, then that would only be a temporary patch.

    [:

    So this is based on two people with integrity, respect, kindness, who are committed to each other. And who are reciprocating the same levels of relationship, but if this fundamental problem is not going to fix that and but what it will get to if you have that open, honest conversation is it will get to is you'll get to that. That's the problem first. So rather than dealing with this problem, this problem, so some most couples really don't break up for the real reason that they break up for like they break up, you know, like people use all these measures.

    [:

    The reason why people break up, if they really analyze that, that's not really the reason they're breaking up. So it's like like growing apart, we grew apart with different people. That's not the real reason. The real reason is you lost connection and somewhere along the line you lost connection because everyone goes apart, but it's that they had differences they didn't resolve and never talked about. So in the wrong relationship, you say it's not going to work because if you don't have that integrity, you don't have that commitment, then this stuff is makes the relationship smoother.

    [:

    But if the fundamentals aren't there, then it is only a temporary Band-Aid. But this is, by societal standards, quite advanced. And correct me if I'm wrong in so much that with the British disease of politeness that often and some things are very uncomfortable to talk about or taboo in society. And so this and you keep hitting home about it is my point of view as well about this honest and frank communication. We're not taught to do that diplomacy, especially in business, in the workplace.

    [:

    My answer to that is quantitative easing is not black and white. So I'm not just becomes par for the course. So this is if I say it might tell me if I'm exaggerating, but I feel it is quite advanced and quite revolutionary to be able to connect in this way. And can you expect somebody or they probably wouldn't be the ideal match for the average person off the street to live up to these sort of communications standards and philosophy?

    [:

    Yeah, you're right. And that's why I think that we have a medieval mindset for relationships. And that's why because you don't have something that fifty five percent of it breaks and then say, oh, that's individual error. That's not individual error. That's a systemic problem. So the problem the problem is that we don't have that. We don't it's our expectations and it's the way that we approach relationships. So, yes, you can understand relationships, but like you say, then the problem is most people don't do that.

    [:

    So you create you you have to create. I talk about it being active in the relationship. You have to create your own relationship. What most people are creating is a default commodity's relationship where they meet each other. They just drift along and do what everyone else does. So. So not everyone is up to that and not everyone's up to it, because not everyone is willing to face the truth, because societally most people are uncomfortable with honesty. Most people have too much anxiety.

    [:

    And so when you look at business, the biggest reason, biggest problems in business aren't really business problems. They're just relationship problems. The whole of society. When you look at the problems, so you look at the conflict, there's a place and protests and things. And what we're really coming down to is that society has been built on a control model so that certain people control and the police are that representation of control. But what what's happening is there are problems that we're recognizing as racism, sexism and all of those kind of like homophobia and all of those things.

    [:

    And as those have been unacceptable and people are challenging the status quo, the status quo is still based on using force and control. And so you've got to societally, this is something we're working out individually. Our relationships don't work for the same reason. When you when people feel controlled, they hate it. They feel unhappy. When people feel free, they feel happy. You know, societally, we understand this because what do we do to punish someone?

    [:

    We take away their freedom. So but the problem is that people are trying to inhibit people's freedom in a relationship. And so then people feel unhappy because nobody wants to be a captive, but they're so captive there.

    [:

    Sorry. The reason that we are made to feel captive is this notion of you complete me, your partner completes you rather than you being a complete person unto yourself, first and foremost. Yeah. So you need to you need to capture somebody to make you you have to keep them tied to you. Otherwise you need to be complete. Exactly. Exactly. People have a feeling and it comes down to a sense of self-worth, self lack of self-worth that people feel they need other people in a relationship and in business.

    [:

    So people also feel that they need something from the boss, they need something from the customer. They feel they need to win something in business because they don't necessarily feel that they deserve it. And so that's where people lie in business. That's where that's where that lack of honesty comes from. So ultimately, the key to relationships is mastering yourself, being able to navigate life, being able to deal with the stress, being able to manage your fear and being able to be honest, whatever that means.

    [:

    But when you go to school, you're taught everything else except how to be the best person that you can be. Yeah, because that doesn't that doesn't fit society's goals. And so, yes, so a lot of people and that should really be what we're filtering for in a relationship is we shouldn't necessarily be high or what someone's job is or those things, but their ability to communicate with us and grow with us. Sorry, Sam, you muted.

    [:

    You know, I was just thinking about how do you how do you maintain your own autonomy and merge with somebody else when it seems so, so conflicting?

    [:

    So what typically happens is people feel an attraction, marry based on that attraction, or get into a committed relationship by Nicole. Then they get into that committed relationship because of how they felt, because of the attraction. So then that becomes all this force. And so the expectation is that you maintain the relationship so that people sacrifice for a relationship. Whereas really I think that you should commit to the partner, that you can be yourself and they can be themselves with you.

    [:

    So you commit to someone who has integrity, respect and kindness if you both have that. And the reason a lot of people don't trust is really because a lot of people aren't trustworthy. And said people want to trust. So there's a lot of like this is really interesting but dangerous passion and it's really talking about jealousy. And so it talks about a lot of, you know, like a lot of people are like, you got unreasonable jealousy. And I go to a therapist and they have this treatment for their trust and a sizable proportion of them.

    [:

    It later turns out that there was there is a basis it was an intuition they picked up that later became. So people people are people and we all have moments of weakness, will do things that we later regret. And so that can happen. But your I think the best relationship strategy is so that someone is more happy with you than they will be with anyone else. And some level of that relationship depends on you choosing a partner that will be trustworthy.

    [:

    So some of that is about the relationship. So there are people who will cheat, whatever. And so it's getting to the truth of that, and then there are people who will cheat because they feel unhappy in the relationship. All and not just cheaper to betray or abandon or whatever the fear is. And so it's about. Building a relationship that makes you both feel free and happy and recognizing that the most important thing is that you're happy and they're happy because the relationship is less important than the individuals in a relationship is what's between you, but the individual's happiness is most important.

    [:

    And so you have to focus and also be less. I think we have to be less attached to a relationship and if someone punches the thing, it's like if you really love someone, you let them go. And if the right thing for them is to not be in the relationship, then I think we have to adjust to that and. Like, not try and cling to someone, not try and hold someone back. Did that answer your question?

    [:

    I've kind of gone off on a tangent. It does to an extent, but I think all of this I think you've talked about requires a certain level of emotional intelligence and you know, not everybody does that.

    [:

    Yes. Not everyone is going to be your partner. And so that is this is the criteria of how you choose a partner. You can have a, again, a great dating relationship. With someone who is entirely unsuitable for a domestic relationship because it takes different qualities, so in order to grow with someone, so there's there's so the other thing is like have you heard of growth mindset and fixed mindset? So for the sake of anyone who hasn't missed, there's a growth mindset means that we think that we can grow and develop, we can be better than we are a fixed mindset.

    [:

    Think this is what someone is? Well, really, people are people can always great people can always evolve and people can be better than they are now if we accept someone as they are. We people will give us whatever we expect, whatever we accept. Like, if someone is cheating on you and they're abusing you and you stay in the relationship, you'll say, that's why I accept. If if they know that you won, then they have to raise themselves to be to be somewhat better, if, like you don't take me out you don't care about me, then do this all these things that are important to you.

    [:

    If the other person doesn't do and you say, well, I still love you, well, then they're not going to change. But if you say no, this is why I expect so. It's about having your having your standards of what you'll accept. So you have to so this means that you have to do a lot of work before, as in determining what do I need to be happy? What qualities does someone have to have in order for us to have the relationship that will make me happy?

    [:

    What qualities do they need of me that they will be happy and sad? And then it's about the interaction of how do we build the relationship so that we both feel happy, that we both feel safe to communicate. And some people want to do that. And they're the people that the relationship when what they say it comes down to real honesty of how what relationship do I need? Like if you want, this relationship is really going to grow and it's going to be honest and all of the continually deepening connection, then you need someone that's going to do all that.

    [:

    If you're happy with a relationship with someone who goes to work and you have your own life and, you know, I mean, there's different levels of relationship if you're happy with that level of connection and you need someone else. So you need to know, and this is about like. In the dating part, this is where you talk about like, what do you really need to be happy? Because what people will do, they'll be in a relationship and then that relationship will work for them for a while.

    [:

    But honestly, I was more than happy where I'm I'm not going to do that. And that's why people say they grow apart, because they never really clarified what they really wanted from the relationship. And so it's really is about you really need to know you. And then and then some of that is about some people don't know until they're exposed to it. So people who grow do so because something mom. And it may be that the relationship was personal or it may not, but the quicker that you can get to the truth.

    [:

    Of someone and not judging them on other factors, but judging them on their ability to have that lasting relationship is how quickly that you can filter through people. So you're going to take a lot of people and a lot of people won't have that emotional intelligence or capacity to work at that. So it's at what level you need and what level will they go to? Does that clarify or is there still something that makes good sense? You but that's actually a little bit more related to the D.

    [:

    Groll mindset things as well for the L.A. law. I don't know if you know the L.A. law parallel law. Yes, it's like 80-20 rules. OK, yes, so close and consequence is seen by the humanity as well in the world, what David Hawkins saying, it's actually around eighty five percent of the population. They are below on that mindset where they are in the fear, anxiety and all this apathy level. So you will actually find these people with the fix mentality and you will only find 50 percent of the population with this growth mindset where you can.

    [:

    Actually, a little bit of intellectual talking with them and the funny one about even if you ask somebody what's make you happy, they're still not 100 percent will be always through. It's like when we had a talk in front of the group, one of the lady was saying, oh, and the beginning of the relationship, I wanted to know the person. So I wanted to somebody somehow have this predictability and routine. But that that's what is breaking the relationship.

    [:

    So actually, what we wanted, it's not what we wanted. Yeah. What we're seeing, it's not that the truth. It's our caution minded saying that because we wanted something fix in the life. But the reality, we want it up and down. That's the life and that's how we should think about. But the fix mentality is more all the time in the line. And sometimes we do. Even with the group mentality, we do want everything like, OK, financial, we want all these fixed.

    [:

    But in the end, the day does really good. Is the life giving excitement, if you got something, what you don't know? We want to control too much. And by controlling, we actually not enjoying. OK, I'm going to have a banner up, stable relationship required, no marriage, no domestic relationships, no domestic situations. In other words, maybe maybe that's maybe that's another level of a relationship. But I met this taxi driver once and he said that he had a wife and he got divorced and they got back together, but they lived in separate houses and it worked perfectly.

    [:

    Exactly.

    [:

    Exactly. Isn't it Tim Burton and Helena Bonham Carter leaving in the house next to each other? Yeah. Yeah. And what's its name? Because she lived with they've just moved in because I think he's now 80 or something, that she's 80 and they're now living together, but they lived in separate houses. That Mary Berry, not Mary, the other one, the one with the glasses, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's it's just individual, but what we've been given is this is what a relationship should look like.

    [:

    And it's really what do I need to be happy, what you know from both sides and what's the format of the relationship and the relationship should be in service to the individuals, not the individuals, to the relationship. Because so many people are growing up through the TV, they never really talk with the family because the family are running or to bring the money home, they're not spending quality time with their children. They're not really challenging. Like, what did you learn from these?

    [:

    You know, they just seemed, oh, you you you you're never going to be how they sing. You would be stupid or something like that, some of the families think these silly things and how it's growing up, the children who.

    [:

    We challenged yeah, we've grown up in our society is built for economic growth, and so I can remember I think it was the 50s when I was talking about like in the 80s, we would only work 11 hours. And if we were, I can't remember exactly the statistics. But like if we worked 11 hours, say we would have more wealth than working 40 hours before. But what actually happens because we've got more time saving gadgets, more we've got computers, all of these technologies means that we can achieve more, but instead we're all more and more time poor.

    [:

    And it's because we're trying to do more and more and more. In in amount of time and so so we've got this dichotomy where we've been pushing to be more and more productive, get things done and all of this be more productive and all these things. But at the same time, we then having to there's this whole other thing of mindfulness meditation and slowing down and being more present to enjoy the moment. Because it's really our mentality. Well, mentality is really what creates the distress in our life, because the stress isn't in the night and the situation, it's how we respond to the situation like the program, basically.

    [:

    Where we're paying for we're paying to learn how to be less stressed, which is something that we. We had before we became this domesticated species, we well, we did in a sense, but it's not like we we had it because we didn't have anything else. If you look back a couple of hundred years, people didn't have anything to do. They had books, they didn't have TV, they didn't have the option. But the problem is that now we have the option.

    [:

    We still have the same mindset that they have. So they would have chosen the same thing. But what we've lost in terms of it is like new societies lose mental health for economic growth. But you know why, Rob? Because we want to divorce. Which is the money, the numbers, and we forget the boat humanity side. So when we go for the force, as Babytalk can see aswell, we feel the pain. When we we actually we step back because what our teacher teaching now and what the manager does now, it's not right.

    [:

    Simon Sinek, really nicely talking about that is the manager job to set up the workers to be failed. And had them to stand up and ask them, what did you learn from? And led them to learn rather than tell them what to do. We make them to think and that's what the teacher doesn't do in the school. And basically, we're not thinking we're not teaching people to think we actually managing them, like telling them like a robot do this and what they get, they actually all the time just follow one things.

    [:

    So that's why they got a fix mentality and Simon Sinek got really great in D.C. really nicely saying is the business's fault why we are you know, if the family, the father or mother goes home in the evening, the family will be like seven percent less happy. But if the family members go home by the stress from the work, it's actually sixty six percent stress taking home. So would be unhappy. So it's related a little bit more for the jobs, but again, it's a little bit the program was created as well.

    [:

    It's a bit both side. It's responsibility for the business as well and for the human side as well.

    [:

    But another layer to that is the reduction of cooperative behavior. And the emphasis on me first, me outdoing milk, pumpkin having to be number one, having to win everything, I mean, the stress on people to achieve and to be on top of the pile is beyond where we can see that by suicide in some societies, students just can't deal with the pressure. Whereas in societies that have more cooperative behaviours, the stresses, they want the same things as us in terms of material, food and nutrition and shelter and all the rest of it.

    [:

    But it's more it's a shared thing in a sense, in that they're more willing to work together rather than I have to be number one. Yeah, yeah, it's number one also has it has implications for how you view your relationships. Is it something is it the position that you must have to be seen as being successful? Yeah, it's lots of people are. Driving themselves to death with work to get the parent's approval. All of these kind of we we're buying stuff to have to deal with our feelings of lack of self-worth, to feel that we're more worthy because we have a designer name or something.

    [:

    And to attract what we think may be the right partner, I mean, we have to bring back to that to to you know, it's I have all the right trappings. I'm not saying anything against Americans. But have you ever been to one of those corporate affair in America and are being asked, so where did you go to school? What do you drive? Where do you live? How much do you earn and all how dare you not want to live in America?

    [:

    I mean, how could you not kind of kind of attitude, you see? And if you don't meet any of that criteria, you how are you going to be considered to be a suitable partner? Yeah, they not a candidate for a relationship with even if there are sparks flying, you know, that can. Good. Good bye. But you know, Rob, also what I've seen and that's actually related, why we are like that, how we are at the moment, because we try to help the people.

    [:

    We try to do we try to do for the children. We try to protect too much. So somebody was describing like that. It's like, think about the eggs when the little birds is just hatching from the eggs if you have for it. But struggle to not struggle a couple of days later will pass away because we didn't have that basic muscle memory, muscle knowledge to survive. So we have to let the struggle and that's what we need to let people as well.

    [:

    Sometimes we need to set for the failure, but instead they are looking that as the lesson what make them stronger. They taking as the granted and pain. They should change the perspective for that. But that should come from the family childhood. Yeah, but which means that someone needs to break the whole chain. Yes. Which will be all or forgotten. Yeah. Which which ultimately I think might have when we have these discussions and ultimately leads to, you know, we have to be the one to, to change it and.

    [:

    You know, ultimately, it's going to be a, you know, society change when we've changed, when, you know, individually, somebody say like that, you don't need to change the people, you just need to be there and they will copy you because you will be the mirror for them.

    [:

    Yeah, it's like Gandhi says, be the change you want to see or even Maria Teresa. I was saying how you can save a million people. One by one, yeah, Mother Teresa. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it all starts with the individual and the only individual we can control is ourselves. And it comes when we stop trying to control anyone outside of ourselves through. So it will enlighten us how are we going to find another enlightened person to decide who could be?

    [:

    I think yeah. I mean, I think I think that is really the problem with relationship is is firstly ourselves. And in recognizing the relationship we want and then who is the person, it's not a person is going to be ready made, but who is the person who is willing to grow and be on that journey with me? Yes, and so it's individual how far we're going to go and how far and how much discomfort we're willing to put up with in terms of ourself of being vulnerable, in terms of dealing with it relationally.

    [:

    But it starts with the individual. And then and then we can expand our. I will work with you if you are honest with me. Anybody know I know, but it's the truth.

    [:

    You have to start somewhere. And to me, that's I draw the line. If you're going to be dishonest, then there is no point. I'm not going to waste the effort. You could look like a doneness. I don't care.

    [:

    Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, yes. But if if there is honesty then I will put in the work. That's the point.

    [:

    There is I think we all have a all points where we will not our lives, where we will not cross.

    [:

    And if we're honest with ourselves, we we should stick to that. Because when you start to compromise and start to rationalize why you are willing to go outside of your boundaries, then you are setting yourself up, I think, for serious disappointment. Yeah, I totally agree. That's why I think integrity is, is where all relationships like the fulcrum of where it. Succeeds or fails to stop. OK, well, thank you, everyone. Again, we've got late again, so anyway, we'll have a good week.

    [:

    And next week we've got the government's sound house relationships, some relationship review of that model. Have a good week, everyone. Thank you.

    [:

    Have a good week.