The Path To Mastery

    The only certain path to success is the path of mastery.

    We can’t master everything, but there are certain things that we can never be happy without achieving. In this episode, we looked at what those were and what was the path to mastery…



    Welcome to The Thing Free Rebellion, the podcast for independent thinkers to rebel against ignorance, manipulation, dogma, doctrine and the fears and temptations that stop us being ourselves and living our best lives. Good to make relationships, simple dotcom to join us at an event or find more information. To lose or gain in 21. Three and a marriage weighs a few pounds.


    Yeah, we feel the punishment is a sudden gain a gain of marriage and lose a few pounds.


    I thought you said gay marriage. It’s all coming out, though. It’s it’s as if dating strategy. A whole new market. Yeah. Now there is too.


    I thought I thought the weights, but it would be gain muscle and lose fat. But that’s OK, isn’t it.


    Yeah. Lose weight, get fit. Find that lovely gentleman. That’s it. No marriage in the Marriage Act of marriage you know.


    How long were you married for some time, if you don’t mind me asking.


    Thirty four years. That’s a lifetime.


    Was OK. Much longer than one but over a decade.


    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.


    I was. I was married in 14 years. You’re looking for differences, Rob, but I am a bit too superficial. No, no, no. It was it was only the warm up. So we’re going to go deeper.


    So you found the perfect relationship now. I’m sorry I said so. You found the perfect relationship now. How do you mean I’m teasing you. OK, yeah, I know you said it was the warm up something you found the perfect one.


    Oh, I see. Like the marriage is OK.


    Um, right. So the next bit is. Right, in order for you that we’re talking about Mostri, so you can only master so many things. So what are the three to seven things that would be essential for you to live a happy, meaningful and worthwhile life within one category?


    Or do you mean different categories of different categories? So I would I would suggest health money. Career relationships are probably like universal self development. I don’t know if that’s necessary. That’s more of a life journey, but it’s mastery of yourself. Yeah. So that’s probably that’s probably why not have counted.


    Or is that yeah, I mean, it’s sort of combined with relationships, I suppose. But there is a self, there is the self actualization of self, but there isn’t the relationship, the extension of the self. It is an extension. But to really be fulfilled in a relationship, I think you have to work on yourself. So it’s it’s this to me, it’s the grounding of self. As far as the individual and the extension into into a relationship which completes that the complete seal.


    Yeah, yeah. Which which is where I was going to say, like, you have a relationship with yourself to master the relationship. You could classify it as a relationship with yourself as well.


    Yeah. OK. I suppose it goes back to the old saying of yourself, you have to get that first before you can love somebody else.


    Yeah, yeah. Does anyone have any different? Freedom from. Yeah, I was about to say Independencia, same thing. What are you thinking about covid-19 million? How did you guess?


    Well, I guess you might say let’s talk over the weekend and the snow and with some family.


    And it just reminds me of the saying that the best things in life are free and with you know, you do take it for granted that those type of things you could do without question, you could go where you want to what you want. And we can’t can’t do that anymore. So. Once it’s taken away, it’s become more chaotic. It’s easy to think of all the things that were lost and that were restricted to do it at the moment, because you can never I don’t think anyone can ever completely lose the sense of freedom.


    No one can ever completely take anybody’s freedom. There’s always something that someone can take away from you. It’s like that quote from Victor Frankl, isn’t it, the last the last freedom is the last. Freedom is the ability to choose your response.


    Yes, OK. Is there anyone are you there, Betty? Hello, I’m just getting dressed. OK, what we’re doing is because it’s such a small group, we’re doing the breakout rooms in here, so feel free to join in if if you want to and when you’re ready. OK, so is there any on that list that anyone feels doesn’t apply to them, select cell phone relationships, money, relationship, money, health, career, career?


    I’d say I don’t feel like I don’t really connect to that one. OK, then.


    Was there an overall health of career, money, relationships, faith and freedom? Do you see what we have done? There is happiness, although you might say what makes you happy. But all those things don’t necessarily always make you happy. I mean, just because you felt that you could have career and all that, you’ve got to kind of understand what’s missing in your life. So, like, a little bit something cool, I suppose. I mean, I could totally just quit sitting here in a back.


    But, you know, if you’re kind of on your own, you haven’t really got a relationship with anybody. It’s not. It’ll be nice, but it’s not really fulfilling thing. I think I’ve mean, having a good relationship with yourself and a good relationship with all this is that brings happiness in and of itself. I think it’d be very difficult to have a good relationship with self and always and not be happy. Yeah. That being comfortable with yourself, I suppose, is what you so really you are really that list is about the self matters, being comfortable with yourself, being yourself.


    And in my interpretation that is also freedom, like as we had the whole free thing for a living. So it’s so I think if you have not of health that you feel is as good as you can, you have mastery of your career. You do something meaningful. If you have mastery of money, then you’re free of the money worries. If you have relationships, then you have good relationships. And so a sense of of of of control over your life.


    Yeah, yeah. It’s in a way, yes. It’s really about the way I conceptualize it is that you have. You’ve confronted the main problems that we have. I suppose parenting would be a tough one for people who have children. I was thinking parents involved and I was thinking maybe that comes the relationships. It does, but it has a lot to say about parents and some of the responsibility. Sorry, Alan, what about parents?


    I’m just saying that’s probably if you have children, it’s probably another matter if somebody wants mastery over how to get rid of the kids.


    Yeah. You know, how to keep them close, keep and say, oh, we got this spectrum. It’s their time to go.


    But it’s funny that the reason I asked that question about the parents involved was because, you know, you’ve got your mind, your mind’s eye, and you think, yeah, that’s not impossible or impossible.


    That’s possible. But in terms of parenting, for some reason like that, we just like Blobfish in terms of I don’t think you could have gained mastery over that. That was what the mind was telling me.


    And that’s why I know you can definitely them. You can definitely. It’s just like in your career, like you get better, I you spend more time sort of navigating it and stuff like that. Yeah, no, I agree.


    It was just, you know, when your parents just got like a Fulgham doesn’t kind of like go along with what you kind of think in yourself. So logically, you can’t put my mind to saying, no, you can’t. That’s why I asked that question.


    So I have to accept that with parenting, there are there are the bits that you can control and there are the bits that you can’t because you’re dealing with other individuals and it’s acceptance of yourself having done the best that you can do.


    Um, yeah. You know, I think sometimes people put too much emphasis on the things that they think that you should do as a parent. And they see themselves as having failed if they did not do those things, whereas if you were to speak to the child, you would get up, probably get a totally different perspective because they are not looking through those eyes. And I think sometimes we’re too critical of ourselves. There is no doubt that the pressure that we put on ourselves, lead to lead to unhappiness can lead to unhappiness because we feel that we have failed.


    Do you think parenting is harder than any of the others? There’s more intricacies to it than all this. I think it crazy to give a lot more in some in some circumstances, and you’re not it’s not you give without necessarily expecting to get. An equivalent in return. So it demands some selflessness on your part. And I it’s it’s how that plays out, I think that’s what’s important in the long run. I think. It’s more or less the same principles or ideologies applied to a normal relationship with a child.


    But I will say it is harder in this sense that you are dealing with a little person when you when you are dealing with a partner, you are dealing with an adult.


    Well, let’s just at the brains completely developed to that stage. Yeah. So the other person in STEM and. Exactly. So assuming the other person is not is a normal person, you’re dealing with another adult, you may disagree on things, but you’re going to get a sensible response or you’re going to get something that you can discuss things through with a child. You are going to get the little pure feelings coming back and you have to learn to sort that through.


    You get that with adults as well. I mean, that’s why I’m saying it really depends. So, I mean, I had this in my own relationship with my spouse. I as the spouse, I suppose you get a lot of. A logical response was back, but then if you ignore all that and you get to the core message, you kind of go you’re upset about the thing, aren’t you? But what you’re saying has got nothing to do with what you feel, but also more introspection and introspection in that respect.


    It’s not yeah, the difference lies. But with children, you see, you get that all the time and you have to learn to cut through that. So they might say, oh, you’re just being too much. And the other because they cannot see this sense in what you’re saying sometimes, or rather they don’t want to see it because they want to play, they don’t want to study or they don’t want to go to bed now because they don’t feel tired, but they’re not thinking about the consequences of tomorrow morning when they’re going to be tired or they can’t see what you see because they haven’t got the life experience.


    They don’t understand that all these things are going to lead to something negative. You understand that, because probably you’ve done it and you experienced it or you’ve seen it, but they haven’t. And it’s not real to them. It’s like people still you can’t think in abstract yet.


    Still, it’s a bit like people are still saying, you know, covid-19 isn’t that bad. Well, you know, almost two thousand people died. So it can be very bad for some people. But can you say so? It’s it’s a bit like that. So I think in that sense it’s harder because you have to learn not to love your own feelings anyway. And that’s very difficult, at least for me, because they are your child and you are emotionally connected.


    If it was somebody else’s child, you could actually be a lot more calm and funny and a better person in that sense, because you are allowing your emotions to get the better of you and you can kind of cool the kind of explain things and, you know, that probably will get through the message will get through better. But when it’s your own kid, get over there, get it done, believe you, because or they study you haven’t studied hard enough or whatever because you know, they can do it, but they’re just being lazy.


    And so in that sense, I think it’s harder. But it’s exactly the same principles. For example, by the way, stop me from dominating the conversation. I find, for example, with my kids, one thing I have always done is been absolutely honest and clear about my things. So they know that I’m a man of my word. If I say it, I’m going to do it. But that also places a lot of responsibility on me to be careful not to say something I don’t want to do.


    And so if I say if you do that, you’re going to get into trouble, then I have to follow it through if they do it. But and they’ve got a point, for example, that I told a joke. And sometimes when I talk, my face is very serious. So sometimes I will say something that kids would look at me and go, are you talking to? And if I say yes, I’m joking because then I will tell them that I’m joking.


    And then they know and they have a laugh about it. But so the point is that kids know that there are boundaries and they know that is consistent. And the same thing with your spouse. They know that they can trust what you say. They know that there are certain boundaries and that you’re consistent. If you say you’re going to do something, you will do it. You know, it’s obvious that you’re serious about it. So the integrity bit, the honesty bit, the reliability, it always has to be exactly the same because that that puts people at ease.


    I think they know what they’re dealing with. They don’t have to try and figure out who builds trust. Yeah, absolutely. But they know that they can rely on them.


    The other doctors know that. We have been mentioning if those are out of sync, it is very difficult to be the best parent that you can be. Yeah, and and and you can always be a better parent. Yeah. It kind of comes to what Alan was saying a little bit. You can always be better, I suppose, if you have 200 kids. By the time we get to 204, you know, you’ve probably seen it all.


    But, you know, a lot of us are going to go that far by boat. But at the end of the day, I think the two relationships are the same. You’re just applying it to different people, but applying it to your own kids because of the feelings involved and because of the because you’re not dealing with an adult is it’s difficult not to take it personally. I don’t take it personally. I mean, I remember my my he he’s nineteen now, but when he was a kid, sometimes, you know, it used to be not just to tell him off and he.


    To say to me, I hate you, I don’t like you, and I used to say to them, that’s OK, I still love you very much. And he had nowhere to go because I didn’t take it personally. You know, it’s very kind of. Oh, it’s not. What do I say now? You know? So, yeah, just like you used everything. Yeah. Because he was a kid that I knew. He was just saying it because he was upset about it because he’s just a kid, but it was only like six or seven or whatever, because at the time it’s like that.


    I mean I’ve had that with my 13 year old. He was, he was really Halmos must have been kicking, you know, as it happens with teenagers. And he he was really upset with me because I didn’t let him carry on playing the game and I made him come out shopping with me. And that’s an important lesson for him to learn because he needs to learn to the contribution and all the rest of it not being part of the family. And he taught so bright.


    Is it too late to move out and go and live with Mom? Now, if you really want to do that, I don’t have a problem if that’s what you want to do. And you kind of kept that going for a while during the shopping and then and he thought that that was it is going to go into when he realized that I was actually shopping for him as well, he kind of totally turned around and he was really sorry for what it was said and all the rest of it, you know, the emotions in his face and in his eyes.


    So I suppose you don’t take it personally, but you are consistent. And if you want to follow that through, I will do. I loved him, too, because, you know, if that’s what he wants to do, he can do that. So he knows that I’m consistent. And I will I, I mean what I say, I don’t tell him you have to go. Well, I said to him, if that’s what you want to do, then that’s perfectly fine.


    You can do that.


    OK, I’m going to play devil’s advocate. Go for it.


    You talk about consistency in approach. The why is it that we can do it with our children, but we are not very good at doing it with our other with our partners. In what way? That’s exactly the question I was going to ask. OK, on in one place.


    I mean, I was always consistently know I, I think as we make allowances for children because we see them as children. Yes. But the problem is inside of all of us, there’s a little child and sometimes that little child comes out. Right. But we look at the adult and don’t see the little child inside.


    Yes. But sort of give me a scenario where you think sometimes maybe your ex-wife or some someone else, maybe someone you even worked with, they act like a child and they don’t directly act like a child, but from a childish emotion. Right. They do something that is related to. Yes, to that. Is that what you were going to ask Sandra?


    Yeah, but more from this point, from the perspective of love me the person and not somebody else with me, I’m thinking of, OK, I can be rational and I can be consistent and I can with my child and I lay down the ground rules and I will listen and I do all the things that one ought to do.


    However, if I’m having the same issue or a similar issue with an adult and not a set of other things come into play. And you’re right, because it’s an adult, you are expecting in some respects a different and adult response. But what you’re getting is the equivalent of a childish response and it throws you off. So in that sense, you also start to act in not the way that you would with a child, because what’s in front of you is not a child.


    You’re thrown out of your game. Still, it’s a different dynamic that I necessarily the child this is the authority that which isn’t the same with spousal relationship. But I think maybe it’s not this and last, isn’t this. We’ve got more idea of what our roles and responsibilities are when it comes to kids, but maybe not so much as partners. Well, yes.


    And actually following on from exactly. That’s what I was going to say, was that I don’t treat an adult like a child and vice versa. So I may be consistent and truthful to both of them. But the way I talk and the truths that I explain, I’m not going to be exactly the same way. It’s not that it’s going to be like, for example, you know. Well, so certain things that happened in in my relationship was relayed to my son.


    Not the way I discussed those with my ex isn’t the way I will discuss them with my son. I mean, he came and asked me about it. It’s not something that I have wanted him to know about because it was just between me and the ex. But, you know, and the way you explain it is different, but it is still truthful. I mean, if it must be not just because I can see puzzled faces. So, for example, we had to I’ve got three kids, so we had a boy and a girl.


    And I was quite comfortable with that. And at the time, I was going through a difficult period in terms of financial income. I was in between jobs. I was trying to build up a build up a business. I wasn’t too comfortable or I was afraid, I suppose, if you want to call it that, in terms of am I going to have enough income for all the rest of it? Because when you work for yourself, your income is not guaranteed, as it were.


    And my ex was desperate to have another baby. And I was petrified that, you know, if this income drops and then we got a baby, all this expenditure, but we got a boy and a girl. And so those ensuing arguments anyway, in the end, she fell pregnant and she and she said she had to have the baby. That was fine. It turned out OK. But when you say to the child you thought you don’t want a third child to child, that might mean something else.


    So I still have to be truthful with them and explain to them my reasons that it wasn’t actually that I didn’t want him or that it wasn’t personal. It wasn’t that I don’t want him or I don’t want a child. In fact, if anything, I remember me saying, let’s wait. And if we get enough money, then maybe we can have two kids and they can grow up together, you know? So you have to kind of explain it in a child’s language in a way that he will understand.


    So that consistency is still there, truthfulness is still there. But the words you choose and the way you explain it will be different because their ability to understand the brain development is different. And so the way I treat an adult, if they’re behaving childish, they may be different. Different. Because you expect better from them by now than you do with a child, because they give an excuse that that’s all.


    So just to play devil’s advocate, I, I, I think all of us are children. All of us have the range from children. We can all be childish and we can all be mature. And sometimes adults act as. And I think we have the expectation that adults will act as adults and we treat adults as if they’re going to act like adults. But often they don’t. You know, even when you look at office politics, it’s because we act childishly, because we want the credit, we want the prize.


    We want this.


    So. Most I think most people in relationships sometimes act childishly, but because we perceive them as an adult, we treat them differently than we would a child. And because we can see with a child, they’re small and even because our children we’ve seen grow up. So in our head, they might still be five or seven or something because they still little, even if they’re 15, 16. But with an adult like a partner or people we work with, we don’t give the same.


    What’s the word I’m giving, we are not as forgiving, perhaps.


    Yeah, look, you don’t have control if you’ve got a child who you’re responsible for. You’ve got that responsibility and you can tell them what to do. You can dish out the punishments. You can feed them, you can clothe them. You can put a roof over their head. Or if you start doing that kind of behavior in the in the relationship and it’s not going to be very fruitful. And most likely it’s going to come into the realms of domestic abuse if you’re trying to exert your control over somebody else.


    And I think we’ve all got to remember that we are many different things to many different people. There’s loads of different aspects of our personality is that we behave differently. We are essentially ourselves, but we behave differently in different environments and in front of different people. You speak differently. We have differently. I know you’ve got to have a level of consistency and which is on the line. No, I don’t think. I mean, I don’t even know whether it’s is fully answering your question, because when I when you made the comments and the statements, the way I listened to it was it was more of a Y in which is why am I doing this?


    And going back to the Masseria mustn’t be independent, but I must learn how I am in relationships. That’s how I picked it up from myself. Right, in one sense, in one sense, yes, because even though you think you’re being consistent and you are, but you’re quite right, the way you express that consistency varies according to who you’re interacting with. But nonetheless, you are always trying to focus on myself, what it is doing to me and how I am feeling.


    Because even though you’re trying to do that and maintain that the response that’s come in that you’re eliciting from the person that you’re interacting with, you have no control over that. And you have an expectation that as an adult, they would certain responses would be the norm. But if you don’t get that, then what what what do you do? How do you how do you handle that? Because it’s off piste. It’s it’s it’s not as you’re seeing adults who act like children, but then in terms of someone’s behavior is not acceptable.


    But if someone’s behaviour is unacceptable, how do you handle it, even if it may not necessarily be totally unacceptable, but it is not. What is the expected response? And I like say you get a response which is like a child, but then a child might say, I hate you. But then when an adult says that to you, your response to that is different, because as far as you’re concerned, you’re talking to an adult and they know the power of words and what hate means when you tell somebody that you hate them versus coming from a child.


    And in response, you automatically, if you are not in if you can’t control yourself, your response. And it just starts to go downhill because that elicits a very strong response from you. When it comes to my child. You know, it’s from a child and it’s it’s it’s it’s what they can do to get your attention. And also, you change things as well, don’t you? Because take, for example, a messy, messy person.


    If they’re a one year old, you accepted you know, you can expect anything more. If they’re 10, 15 years old, you might control board a bit and try and teach them that actually they need to learn to be tidy. If there are thirty five year old, you kind of got to say. But look, you know, if you can’t sort your mess out, maybe you need to live somewhere else. And whether it’s your child or your spouse, I mean, if it gets to that much, that is you’re going to have to your your response is more or less the same.


    I mean, you think the difference I think the difference with children and adults there is, is that we’ve got a responsibility as parents to help them learn the skills to clean the room, whereas we don’t have the same responsibility. We an adult on them. And I think in a situation of it’s just about talking and expressing a publisher and sort of asking them to do something about it. And I’m sure there’s something that would bother them about the deal.


    So it’s like, OK, I’m going to make an effort with this and I want to see you making an effort with that sort of thing. And let’s do this together. Obviously, not everybody is not reasonable. And I think that’s where the line is. If the person’s willing to sort of work and grow together or if they’re not well done to that, in fact, to that responsibility, hold up the word power to that as well, because you have the power over your child to shape them when they’re young.


    Of course, after a certain age, you don’t have that anymore because they still have to grow into an adult and and the separate adults or somebody was not your child, your spouse. You don’t have the power or them at all whatsoever. And so you may you cannot change the person. Only they can change themselves. But whether a child, you can support them into ChangeOne and they are more susceptible to change.


    Think that comes into play there, though, is with an adult. You expect a certain amount of respect when it comes to your expressing your your wishes, especially if it’s done reasonably, you know, as you say. Let’s see, can you keep the room tidy or can you keep the kitchen clean? We both have to work. We both whatever. Please. And the person ignores you as an adult, you feel disrespected. Yes, so to me, that’s another layer that comes into the adult adult relationship that’s different from what pertains to the adult child relationship.


    There is respect, yes. But it’s in a different format. It’s a different in a different form.


    I wouldn’t even say it. Just respect that would make me feel worthless as well.


    I think it is about being valued by the other, isn’t it, and value in each other.


    You know, in relation to the ice breaker questions that you’re asking, Rob, when you ask what people’s wishes are and such as you said about my marriage, you want to get married? I want to get married. And Sandy, you said you don’t want to get married. And I just find that really interesting, because you’ve both got these ideas and I’m sure they’re both equally as powerful, but the opposite ends of the scale, aren’t they? So the one thing that you want is the total opposite.


    I’d just be interested in if you’re happy once, you don’t have to. What’s the driving force behind both of those desires?


    I’m not interested in the vehicle. I visited the person. That’s it. That’s in it. So I’m not interested in the marriage. I’m interested in the human. And that’s that’s me. But I mean, I have the trappings of the marriage and the remnants of the marriage, so I don’t want that. What I want is the essence of another human being on a journey with me. So that is my to put it there.


    So essentially the same thing, but just different definitions of it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.


    I think so as well. Yeah, I think so. And such just as marriage.


    She doesn’t mean actually I don’t mean, I don’t mean the white dress in the diamond ring. I’m not talking about someone you can show your love. Yeah. Yeah.


    So, so from a realistic point of view, if you do you have a Wistar so to speak that you can get married this year. Do you think it’s a possibility? I don’t know.


    Wait. Waiting longer and hopefully, um. I don’t know. It’s just one of the things I thought, you know, four years ago, I’d be married by now. And obviously I’m not. So it’s just it happens when it happens and you just gotta keep keep going and keep trying. That’s that’s how I see things.


    Do you see in your mind you have the image in your mind, sort of like visualize in the goals are to think.


    Yes. To some extent people like you can spend all the time visualizing the goal to some extent, or at least this is from my experience and it doesn’t feel like it’s getting you very, very far, or at least it did for me. So it’s not that I don’t have if I actually have to think about marriage, I don’t see something unhealthy or destructive. And so I am so hopeful and it just happens when it happens.


    So what is it about marriage? What why marriage?


    Why not just relax and just. Just for religious reasons, more than anything. But it was you suppose you found a gentleman who was perfect and I use it in, you know, and he had no desire to get married, then it’s not perfect for me.




    OK, so now you’ve thrown a spanner in the works because you just play along the wall?


    Well, I’m the guy driving force behind and I’m trying to get guests trying to understand the driving force behind both of your desires and wanting to reduce fear because of what you’ve you’ve gone gone through in the past in terms of don’t want to go through that again unless you’re such maybe expectation. I think it’s to do with definition of what marriage means to somebody. And what’s that definition for you? For me, it means like commitment, it means like wanting to do the right thing and all that sort of stuff.


    Have you been married before? No. I was married for 23 years. You’re not missing very much. But the thing is, this is what I think when people’s marriages break down, the marriage is the problem. And it’s not marriage. That was the problem. It was there was all the factors that for whatever reason, the relationship itself didn’t work out. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. That’s true. I mean, I didn’t think the marriage itself was a problem.


    I always wanted to get married because I felt that it signified commitment. If you are committed to somebody and this was it, and you weren’t the kind of person who was just going to go, well, I’m fed up now. I’m walking out. Then you got married because, you know, you were going to be there forever.


    And plus one, that was my opinion. But I mean, don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s the forever happy ever after. I don’t have that sort of, like, illusion of I don’t know if illusion is the right word, but I don’t see marriage as the fairytale. It’s just a means to a really good relationship. So it’s about both of you committing and you both committed to that relationship and making that determination that you could spend a life together and work on things.


    So when I asked the same question, Sandra asked it, but that was the question that I had in mind. And I meant it slightly differently from how everyone seemed to take it is in the sense of I don’t mean in the sense of responsibility, but I mean in the sense of how you respond. So all of us will have childish moments. And it’s not about like the role of parent of the role of taking responsibility. But I was looking at how we react to a child and we say they say, I hate you and you take.


    And what I was trying to get at was we react to an adult. We don’t have that much space. Whereas with the child we can say, I hate you and we can have that space between us. And so it’s not about taking responsibility, but when they act as a child, can we have the space to say. OK, there’s something they’re missing. They’re acting like they’re like when an adult does it, we take the action seriously when a child does it.


    We don’t take the action so seriously. And so what I’m saying is that if we could like that commitment is really saying, OK, you’re responding like this, but I’m still here for you. I’m still what do you need to get up so that you act better? Does that make sense?


    Is that to the child, that scenario?


    I’m saying that we we tend to do it with children, but we probably don’t with our partners. Because I know that I can see the difference in me, you the leeway that you mentioned, that distance, that leeway that you give the child, you you you you are conditioned not to give that to an adult because you are looking at an adult as your equivalent. And you. Do not think that that’s an appropriate response coming from another adult to you, and therefore your reaction is based on that, whereas you understand that a child is developing and sometimes they use words inappropriately or they lash out.


    But it is not said with malice or with deep intent. It is in the moment, it is lashing out, etc.. And just to answer Allan’s question, for me, it’s you you mentioned the word earlier when you are speaking earlier in the evening, independence, that word, freedom, independence. Freedom. Freedom, right? That’s that’s that for me is is what I have and I cherish. So I want I want the companionship and I want everything else, but I want my independence as well.


    That would indicate that you see marriages in some sort of control element, because if you have control, if you have don’t have freedom, then you consult.


    It’s not control so much, but it’s that there are formalities that you respect within your marriage that you know to you be to the mortgage, beach house, whatever, beat certain commitments you get really tied into once you are part of a marriage and once you break out of that.


    Do I want to get myself back into all of those things and. Yeah, but I don’t want those ties, those ties and the legal formalities, the formalities that can drag you down and really tear you apart.


    Certainly that’s been put up for me as well, having gone through this all from the legal side, very one sided.


    But in Jamaica, women are still if you’re not careful, you’re like chattel. You know you really know some of the laws. It’s like I mean, you know, and it’s it’s you know, there’s equality on the mountain people. But nonetheless, to get a divorce, it’s it does take quite a bit out of you. And it is only then that you realize how much of yourself you have tied up in the legalities, the bank accounts, whatever and everything.


    I mean, to answer your question, Rob, if I may. I don’t think we can deal in black and white issues and adult deals, adult is childish and so we react differently. I mean, I’m sure through these conversations I’ve been told this number of times. And if one of the people here will probably look at the trend and other people giving or they put it off or whatever. I suppose what I’m trying to say is that you assume an adult and if they’re behaving like an adult now and again, they behave childishly.


    You kind of compensate for something. And I will, and I’m sure everybody else does. But if you are consistently behaving childishly, then you will lose that compensation will deteriorate very quickly. You will don’t because you’ve got no power or control over the adult person behaving childishly and that relationship will to stop deteriorating.


    OK, so if for me there seems to be something around. An assumption that an adult is always an adult, whereas sometimes they react less. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. And I think sometimes we don’t recognize because there’s an emotional maturity and a physical maturity. Yes. And the two don’t always go together. Yes. Right. In fact, I think I said is one of the earlier conversations I’ve had already. But you have to ask yourself, you have to achieve financial independence, which is being able to fend for yourself.


    You have to have intellectual independence, musical abilities of your own life, problems you don’t want you don’t need somebody to talk to you. You can go and get educated on the IT if you don’t have it. And you have to have the emotional independence which is around your character a lot a lot of background noise that I don’t know.


    Oh, yes. That’s my 16 year old thing, is roadblocks and we’re looking sort of thing. Well, let me let me turn to Jim can use a different people.


    I don’t mean to keep bringing it back to responsibility, but at that point, I would think it was more to do with because adults do have more responsibility for themselves and more like self agency than a child does. I’m not saying that someone acts childishly all the time. I’m saying often in an argument we act childishly, but we won’t give each other that recognition because we see the adult.


    So so there’s a quote someone said, well, what I’m saying is why we would be kinder to kids or not may be kinder to kids like handle it differently is maybe expectations and responsibility. But children have less responsibility for themselves, whereas an adult has more responsibility over their own actions and more self agency. So then we would be annoyed at the fact that they’re not being about Rudel. I think it’s someone mentioned somebody mentioned that before.


    Yeah. I’m just thinking sometimes, like sometimes if you if you ever lash out or you act childishly, then sometimes we need someone to say like to understand without reacting. And because of that, if he is to be the wall or when the fire is that that’s all water and fire analogy.


    Yeah, probably. Yeah. So someone someone. There’s a quote all communication is either love and communication or a cry for help. And sometimes when people are. I think it all boils down to compassion. That’s why I trying to get out when people see annatto, they have less compassion than they would for a child, even though the emotional and the physical are different.


    I think the more self compassion we develop, the more I think Sandra mentioned it before when I all speak. And I think it’s really important to understand the situation and to have more self compassion more quickly, because I think that diffuses a lot of the problems, both of those.


    And well, when you’re not on the threat from a child, you know, you’re not going to get beaten up or or really, really abused or anything like that from a child or any adult has got the potential to cause harm. I think you should know the person well enough at some point to know whether they like that or not. And I think there’s a line that shouldn’t really be crossed anyway.


    But some people can just slip, though, can’t they? You know, when someone someone gets really, really angry, the anger does strange things to people. Those. One of the worst, certainly, that I find that adults do to each other, sometimes it’s all but you do so on. So why you know that coming back at you. But but how is it OK when you do so and so? And if you say something to them, you get that.


    But it’s all right when you do it. Do those kinds of responses and those it doesn’t take the argument any further because what that does is throwing it back at you rather than taking responsibility for whatever it is and and and and discussing it.


    And I suppose it it is for us to look at ourselves and try to have that kind of control, which I don’t have. I will confess not to blow my top in response and usually comes to rubbish. So when I get that, I’m going to just let it go. And for me, oh, add that to my list to learn to control myself a little bit more. But it’s a red flag for me. Don’t, don’t, don’t turn the argument back onto the other person.


    And so people do that all the time.


    I don’t think they do it, but it’s irritating and it does not are that if the person is good natured enough, if you know the person’s nature and they’re good natured enough, and I think that’s the line where the good natured all the not. And I think if the person’s good natured enough, it’s about having the confidence that you can get through to them somehow. Rob, I don’t know if you’ll be able to answer this question, because I’m just being from a personal experience and like previous relationships, I don’t think John and I have been having an argument with my girlfriend at the time.


    And I’m more than one occasion they would bring up something from the past which had happened years ago. I’m not often. And it could be just as John just said, you’ve done this as the type of thing we might have thrashed it out and said that I did A, B and C because of this reason. Logical step. And you go, OK, that’s not toasted. And then you might have another argument, say, six months down the line.


    And again, they would bring up this saying whatever it was in the past. Why do you think that some people will be flat back away from themselves and also bring up something which is supposed to have been resolved? Clearly isn’t. Well, maybe the thing is, sometimes the thing is part of a pattern, and so it’s brought up in connection because this is relates to this, to this, to this or it wasn’t really resolved. Sometimes people want things to be resolved because it clears the peace, but it isn’t really resolved in their head.


    Or sometimes it’s just childishness, because it’s a way of hurting or deflecting, as you say, and not feeling that front, maybe not feeling safe enough to hear each other’s feelings at that moment.


    Well, sometimes you just want to hurt you. Like, people just want to hurt people, don’t they? You just want to lash out. What can I use?


    I think if I may say this comes back to emotion dictating action. So if you allow your emotions to dictate their actions, then chances are you’ll act childishly. So if you go back to your road rage, that person is full of emotion. And so they allow that emotion takes over and that emotion is now controlling of their actions, whether they’re swearing to the fingers, take a gun and shoot the person or whatever, like I’m 25. That is emotion driving the person’s actions.


    Now, in adults, you would expect them to have more self-control to a degree. But we all lose it. And it’s it’s normal. It happens. It happens to us all the time now. But my experience of that has been that if it is possible to take what they say personally, you know, words in a child, you don’t take it personally because you automatically assume that actually, you know, half the time they don’t actually understand what they are saying anyway, misusing words.


    Whereas in an adult, you presume it’s a considered opinion. So it comes across as personal. And another reason may very well be that if if you don’t feel comfortable enough in yourself and when they bring something out, that can potentially be a problem as well. But my experience has been that even when I saw personal and I actually rather than reacting to the illogical emotional outburst, which does my husband as well, like, you know, one thing I have a short fuse for is a logical argument is and even if I studied myself, I trained myself to study myself.


    And I went back and said, actually, you mean this is got nothing to do with what you’re saying, this is what you’re actually upset about. And that kind of diffuses the situation a little bit. But even then, when it happens repeatedly, then you start losing patience with that. Decided I can do it once, twice, three times. But if they keep going round and round in a circle like a broken record these days and you think that this is a you expect the adult at that point to recognize and resolve to be better, to improve themselves, as you will do with a child.


    But with that child, you take the action and you dictate the growth path because it’s your responsibility as the parent to help them grow out of the child’s behavior. But you can’t do that with your spouse. You can’t say, oh, Sandra, come on, stop being childish. I mean, that’s just going to throw fuel onto the fire, right? Going to locater. So and that is I think that comes back to what you are saying.


    So that’s and I, I, I think that’s really insightful about when we when we got went from emotion. That’s what a child has so emotional. So with a child, I don’t think it’s for me anyway. I don’t think it’s so much about the structures of what we do, because I think I think you behave like this to the students, too, that I don’t think it to me, I never felt comfortable with power or trying control with my children.


    I, I, I looked at it as being like plants and what do they need, what do they need to grow. So for me, when I’m parenting the child or when it was it’s just like that, it’s like what do they need. So in in your situation, Alan, was it more of an emotional like I need this emotional, foundational, emotional something that they needed to get beyond that?


    And not actually a logical answer, though? No, I don’t know, because it wasn’t just one thing. There’s loads and loads of different things.


    And literally, if you did anything that was deemed as incorrect in that in areas you were never made to forget, it put it that way.


    So that’s a power that’s a power thing, isn’t it? Virginal and forgiveness.


    Sorry, cockroaches and luck, it’s just a lack of forgiveness there, but it’s also about being using it as a tool to push you down its control. It’s a control thing, isn’t it? But there’s. Sorry, sorry. I was just going to say that I think there is one other word that we should add today to this whole mix, and that’s expectations we what we expect of the other adult and when those expectations are not being manifested, our reaction is also a sort of disappointment or so our disappointments are also coming out in that discussion as well.


    So it’s you don’t have that kind of disappointing feeling towards your child, you know, when they become teenagers and if they really start to go off the rails. Yes. But as a small child, you don’t have that kind of disappointment. You might be disappointed in them for a particular behavior on a particular day or something, you know, particular action. But for an adult, when you are, you have expectations that especially when you start out in a relationship and you are involved in, I think, the back of your mind, you are hoping that your partner is also growing and evolving as well.


    So there is some kind of congruence with both of you. And when you don’t get that and that comes across in terms of sometimes in the same responses that we get when we have a discussion or we have an argument with them. And that, to me, is one of the clearest examples of diversion between the two, the two parties, their own divergent parts, parts. And I and I suppose another word that would come to mind in that is disappointment.


    And that also leads to frustration because so I think there are many layers to to this to this issue. And depending on what where you are on that trajectory, more emotions, more feelings, more, more, more and more and more. Adjectives could be brought into play because you know, that, as I just said, disappointment becomes its own master after a while when their expectations are, I think to some extent we don’t know who deserves the right word or entitled or anything like that or if we’ve got a certain expectation.


    I don’t think there’s anything stopping us from trying to have that expectation that we do it in a healthy way. But I think I think the key thing is to people at work, like understanding. But I think how many? So when you’ve had those disappointments in relationships, how many times have you had the clear, like a clear conversation you might use? Generally, we expect in the relationship, but we don’t talk to the other person about the expectation.


    How is communication thing you have in your relationships? Have you been clear about your expectations? That’s the most difficult thing to do. That is what we are not taught how to do. We have not learned how to have that without having subjectivity judgment coming into it and misreading cues. The whole. You know, everything, and so you end up with people just emotionally torn. And then when they were emotionally torn like children. Exactly. So it’s a vicious circle to go back to the analogy of road rage as well.


    And some people, I don’t know if you’re familiar with emotional flashbacks, but it’s basically when we overreact to.


    To a certain situations, to say something really little happened and I gave an emotional reaction as if something much, much more major, it happened because of my own internal traumas or whatever else. So I think we’ve road rage may maybe the being cool off and something happened earlier on in the childhood that might be forgotten. By that point, we’ll be having this big emotional reaction because it gives them an emotional flashback to something they might not even be aware of.


    It can be, yeah, I think it can be and also but you can see that in pubs a lot of the time, you know, people fight over silly things because they drink. Because it means something much bigger to them than just someone spilled during the day because see an off balance and yeah, because it’s disrespect or whatever, and they have to show that they watch them. Yeah. But then within relationships all the time, those same things are how where does the where does that need for needing to be macho come from.


    Where it’s an emotional need isn’t it. Yeah. And that’s why I’m saying that people act as children and yet you see this big time bloke inside. The way that he’s acting is like this child. And yet we would treat the child differently. But actually what the adult needs is to be treated like a child, not in the sense of gets you very little because you need to learn the emotional and the emotional responses that you engage in obscurity through to adulthood.


    Yeah, but I think that’s true of all of us. I mean, there’s a spectrum. There’s the person it’s you know, like prisons are filled with people who can’t control their emotion, still buying people and people and. Yeah, but I’m I’m sure we’ve all done it. I mean, is there any one of us that has never been acted emotionally in a relationship or with someone else? Has never been as has never reacted emotionally, like in a car or in a relationship at work or I think we’ve all been childish at times, could be something is definitely something deeper going on for that person.


    I’m not saying I’m not trying to excuse behaviors or.


    Well, it’s it’s that the emotions that we feel, we haven’t got the regulation for that. So we haven’t we haven’t got the emotional the emotional capacity to manage our emotion, and it’s partly to do with introspection, isn’t it?


    It can be and it can be. It’s not having that space. And that’s what I was trying to get out with. We treat adults and child children differently. It’s the space. It’s the allowance that we have because we have these assumptions and expectations about adults. We have less tolerance to them than we would to children, sometimes have an adequate response to whatever is in front of us. And so what’s the next best thing but to have a tantrum?


    Because we don’t have the appropriate response. So we can.


    And that’s that, I think is it’s a fallback position. And we do use that at, you know, when you move and carry on and and it’s totally childlike, but we just don’t have an adequate response to whatever was put in front of us by the other person. And so we flounce and we carry on. And, you know, it depends. But it all depends, doesn’t it? Because we’re kind of discussing a relationship in a vacuum.


    You can’t it’s very hard to say how you will behave in a relationship or discussing it in a vacuum. And what I mean by that is there is no history in this relationship that we are aware of. So we are taking on a specific event and we’re looking at it in isolation of everything else. That’s not a relationship anyway. That’s just an event. So if it was on the street and someone kind of was emotional, that you chances are and called you an idiot, chances are you will kind of look at him and think, what’s the matter with you?


    And you welcome. But if you have a relationship, say, your parents or your spouse and they called you an idiot, there will be a more hurtful comment because there is that relationship. So I think we have to take that into account. So when somebody is behaving childishly in the relationship, taking the history into account now, assuming that person behaves childishly, then they recognize it. And this has happened to me recently. My son was also doing his work well and I got my emotions, support, and I was kind of a little bit harsh on him.


    But then afterwards I went and I sat down and I talked to him and I kind of smoothed it over and I explained why I was with him most of the time, because he was obviously a loving laziness, because, you know, I didn’t want that. And so I kind of got emotional over. So I was a little more harsh than I intended to be. Now, if you are able to go back and smooth it over, i.e. explain and then resolve not to maybe not to do it as frequently, I will say I will say never.


    But then if you take that kind of a history when you are emotionally the next time, that person may even help you get over your childish behavior at that point and explain what it is that it really bothers you. But if you take another relationship where the person behaves emotionally and then tries to then justify themselves and gain the moral high ground, then they don’t deserve it, then that deteriorates that relationship. And if that’s been what’s been happening all the time, next time to childish behavior, that is likely to be a similar comeback because the other person is not feeling like a punch back.


    But, you know, no question so and not that I asked before about people bringing up stuff in the past all the time. And I was going to ask you what you think we should do about it. But I don’t know whether they’ve come up with a with an answer just as adults speak in that. And do you think it will be helpful to. Wait for the quiet moments when you’re watching TV or whatever, and just go, oh, by the way, remember that time when I left the bench outside and you keep bringing it or whatever it was, would it be helpful for us to talk about why that really bothers you to know we’ve covered it in the past, but you do keep bringing it up and I don’t find it helpful.


    Do something with that kind of effect, do you think that would be useful or. Yeah, I think every time they bring that up is a lower, much lower emotional state is not. It’s when they’re angry. Yeah, so at a time when they’re like that, first of all, when they’re up here and they’re happy, they’re not going to they’re not going to recall the situation in the same way. Some of it is in association with I feel like this now.


    I felt like this then. So, yeah, I think it is resolved or it’s a power thing or it’s they associate it when they’re when they’re feeling low. But whichever of those it is and it’s worth having the discussion to find out which it is, because if someone is using it as a power thing, then the fact that you’ve brought it up then shows what they’re doing. If it’s something unresolved, you have the ability to do it. But so where I was going to come back to you on that was this two to the two points in that interaction.


    There’s the point of where she’s saying it and then is the point of where you’re receiving it. So though you’ve talked about it, have you resolved how you feel about it?


    How I felt? Because if someone says something, you know, like Arrow said, you know, if someone says something without history, without you having any emotional attachment to it, you don’t it doesn’t trigger you as much. But the fact that this person said it can trigger you more. So, like, have you fully resolved it? And obviously, I’m going back going back years, and there was something mundane, mundane things such as taking the bins out, he wasn’t taking a big but it was just nonchalance.


    Is that in a moment? And for me, it was a case of let’s go to the bench. OK, well, I got up late and I didn’t set the alarm. I should have set the alarm. And I accept that I made a mistake. That logic is whatever it was I did. And and to answer your question, it was resolved in my mind because in my mind, because I felt I had a reasonable excuse for the right, albeit wrong, and I’d given the reasons as to why, OK.


    Yes, but given the reasons why is does not is not enough in my mind, where have you provided a meeting halfway where you will endeavor to do better? In other words, I’m sorry, this is the reason why, but I will try to do it in a different way or, you know, some way that helps to resolve. So you provide a positive end to the issue and you are being proactive about it. Is it’s just not just seen.


    Yeah, yeah. The alarm didn’t go off and whatever, whatever. But you are acknowledging the issue and you are giving a solution, as in saying that it’s not going to happen again.




    And I do it whatever. But then there’s there’s also another subtle key to this thing where in some people they have expectations and they want them to be met immediately on their Cecil controlling. And so they become annoyed if, like you are to put out the beans, the beans must go out by, you know, this whatever in the night before. And if it if it’s not done, they’re upset.


    And they take that upset with them to bed and they wake up the following morning and they’re upset because you didn’t do it when it should have been done.


    Well, I’m saying about the Benz’s example and possibly from use it because the binmen come every week. But it was something it was along the lines of why we’re meeting such and such. Whatever you do, don’t don’t mention this. And I mentioned it and it was absolutely nothing, you know, I mean, it wasn’t a major thing. I just generally just said that the so I’m one of the occasions and it was something to do with music. I think we’ve gone to like an Indian wedding or something and had asked something about the music and was told not to.


    And I just asked about the music and then they said they didn’t even say anything to anyone interested. But the person I was with was really annoyed because they said, oh, you shouldn’t have asked about the music like I told you not. So I was like, oh yes, I explained it, whatever. So it was a situation that wasn’t going to be repeated and we were going to another. And then when we went meet new people again.


    So it wasn’t something that we can go, OK, I’ll know better next time.


    I’m sorry, have you had you finished? Sorry, Alan. Yeah, finished yet. Yeah, okay, so what is he talking about? We’re talking about people keep bringing up the same issue. So and why is that so? Okay, so if we can think about say you’re putting the bins out, OK, that is water. Right. So. Put the bins out, is water how he felt about it? Is oil. OK, so it’s logic and emotion, so you you talked about it on a level of logistics and logic.


    But the fact that she was annoyed that event meant something to her beyond the logic it meant, and that’s to do with her expectations and you don’t know what they are because you probably don’t know what our expectations were. And it’s something to do probably with when I was young, I could rely on people. They did they would let me down. They would close it cause me embarrassment or something like that. So there was something about and I think we come to relationships as children.


    In terms of emotions and we look at the other person and we look at them as an adult, but in many ways because of things that have happened in our childhood, because of traumas, because of whatever, we actually feel like children within that relationship. So there’s no other field where we feel as much anxiety and fear and fear of rejection, fear of abandonment, a feeling of shame, all of those things that we come to the relationship with, but we don’t talk about them.


    And so there was something in that in that event that triggered. And emotion in her and when you talked about the logic, there is no logical reason that she could see to explain how she felt. Does that make sense? So and because you talked about the logic and she couldn’t disagree with the logic, because the logical bit of it didn’t make sense to the emotional reaction, but there was some emotional need that wasn’t met. And that’s that’s the point I was trying to get at with how we treat we can’t treat adults as children and vice versa, because sometimes we need to treat the adult as the child, not in the sense of you need to do this, you need to do that.


    But in the sense of, OK, what’s behind this behavior? Like when an a child has a tantrum in the supermarket, we know is because he wants something that they can get. And we understand that we don’t need to explain that in adults, it’s masked, so we argue about you haven’t put the bins out. What it really means is you don’t love me. You don’t care about me. You don’t care about what really matters to me.


    And so you’re talking on the level of the bins. The reaction is, is it a fair? So you have to get to what I’m saying, that when you like, if we could treat adults, our partners, like we would treat a child, we give them a hug and we say, I love you. What what are you afraid of? What’s what’s really about this? And then I go, oh, because it’s because of this.


    But we talk on logic and the logistics and the emotional scars don’t get resolved. Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense and it’s very clear to me the. It’s quite deep, isn’t it, because it sounds like we’re coming from a place of ego, but we assume that everything that we think will believe is what they do, and we forget that, of course, they have a complete different mind and experience. Like you said, they’re not reacting to what’s in front, but what’s behind them.


    But we’re not taking that into account. I think that’s quite deep and a really good way to look at it.


    It’s all about the personal narrative. So we are always talking about the history of the relationship. What that means is that you have a narrative like and in that example, Alan, is that narrative was I can’t trust because you didn’t do this because you didn’t do this. I can’t feel safe. And all of our rules are about we’ve built up a narrative about who that person is, and especially if we’ve been in a relationship a long time, we assume we know who the person is.


    You did this, you did this. You are this person. And so we judge. But actually, as we know individually, ourselves, we change in all the time. And so we see patterns and we make stories on them patterns and we react from this story. So the story is that the narrative is what mediates between the logical whatever’s happened and the emotional reaction. Yeah, it’s true, though, that the context within which these occurrences happen, they’re usually just known by between the parties involved and anyone on the outside want, recognize and just see the see the event.


    And so it’s likely that one person will be labeled overreacting. And the other one may be seen as a victim and depending on what, what, what, what, what is happening, and that has happened to me in the past because I have one child.


    And for me, when he was young, I really emphasized making good memories with him and recording as much as I could, you know, and for me, that was something that I wanted him to have growing up. And when I’m not here, that he can look back at his his childhood and he can see how he grew up and his milestones. And my husband was always late for things and they would drive me crazy because this is my son’s first recital, you know, at school at age five.


    This is before he came here in Jamaica in the cathedral. And I’m there early. And I you know, I’m calling and I’m saying make sure you get here on time. And when he comes to the recital is over because he had a class and I don’t care about the client. You should be here for your only son. This is important. And so my face looks like thunder and I’m not speaking. And I go into my car and I collect my son.


    I go into my car and I drive off and I leave it right there. And so people look in on that. And because I was I was near to tears. I was so angry. They don’t see me, they don’t see how devastated I am and my son, too, because he’s on the verge of crying because Daddy didn’t come to see him play. And I’m fighting back the tears because I don’t want my son to, you know, how it is.


    And and as far as he’s concerned, it’s business. And he had to stay to do the business and. Sorry. And.


    And so, you know, it’s just like there’s this Bansi, this woman who is just so angry and so so thing, and there’s this quiet man who is taking it all in, how does he cope with her? And she’s she’s just driven off in a rage that she’s. But I had to drive off because I would see things that I didn’t want to see. And my major my main concern was for my son. But you see how it happens, and that’s the point, that’s my example.


    I mean, John Gottman talks about perpetual problems and they are these because we work of different narratives. So his narrative was, I need to I need to provide Nuneaton. I give love by by making and providing an income and or the family and things like that. Whereas yours was let us have the emotional experience I needed. I was the I earned my oh lots more. So that’s not the point. But yeah. Whatever that he was running from a different narrative.


    But he’s honestly the only thing he was not late for was when and he was there before the. Boy, that does shut you down. Sorry. I know now at the same time, I was just still to chat and now I’m going to say, wasn’t that important one, would you or would you rather be like then? Yeah, I know, but you’re correct. It’s just it’s just that I think that there are different levels of of of things that happen in a relationship that contribute to the Hollick, how it evolves.


    And yet they’re the petty things which get blown out of proportion. But they’re also very important things that because we have not learned how to deal with with the minor ones, when we get to the major ones, we’re totally, totally lost. I think ductus sort of Sandra, I was going to say actually, Acanthus, compared to what I was saying, goes slightly in that there’s a history that, yeah, if I think he was on time for everything else in this one, you probably will get that probably a little too much by now.


    But because it was a repeated thing, it kind of said I thought it was useless as much as it did.


    And that’s kind of what I think. That’s where we need to have clear communication, because what you need to talk about is what you like. What is the latest? Because there’s a narrative, because there’s something that causes the lightness. And your narrative is that he doesn’t care. And it possibly could be, but it could be something else. Or, you know, like it could be, and people who have ADHD or things like that have factors that trigger that kind of thing.


    And if the narrative is we don’t care, it might not necessarily be the way that you work hours by getting clarity on him, knowing what that means to you. And because often we assume that the other person knows.


    How would you explain being late for a family funeral? A close family member, and you’re late for that because of business, so that to me is important. And, you know, it’s different from just being late for just picking up somewhere made of things. And you still find a way to accommodate something else and not to put an important thing in as a priority. That’s the message that you start to get, that you whatever is family involvement is not a priority or that things on the priority is not the sole.


    But that’s what you read. OK, well, I don’t I don’t know the gentleman, but let’s presume for a minute he’s lovely. Otherwise, you know, don’t worry. OK, so so let’s presume for a minute. Think I don’t know. So I’m just having a business and being a businessman and being successful actually apart from providing money makes me feel important and valued by all these people. And because I’ve never been valued in my life before, I crave that attention and love that I get this attention that’s far more important than anything else that happens in life, because this makes me feel like a whole person.


    So I need to ensure that I keep this business going. And on the right, this is going to happen. I’m going to get the attention is to spend the time with my clients. Yes. The funeral that I like the person as well. But we all have priorities in our life. And this one is clearly a higher priority than the funeral or my son’s recital or anything else. Because this business fulfills something. It’s either because I have fear of money or it is that it gives me some sort of a status or power that I never had.


    And that kind of captures me. You know, it could be something like that. The last child syndrome. Yeah. And so it completes me in some fashion is not to say that we agree with the behavior, but it may very well explain something in the in the person’s behavior.


    I agree, because I have thought of have thought of that as well. But nonetheless, in as a family, there are milestones in my mind anyway. They are milestones. They are memories that collective memories for the family. And if over time one person is perpetually late or missing, then it becomes a skewed family narrative. That’s my fear that that that that that’s what happens if one party is is all it is, is is missing from important events or because they are perpetually late, they create a bit of an atmosphere.


    So it’s not as nice as it should be. That occasion may not be as as as as wonderful as it could have been because of that and not lost because that person it’s expectations and miscommunication.


    That is the key thing about. Values and narratives, because if we have the same values, but we both have different narratives, which we would do, but those narratives somehow or clash, you know, they haven’t been explained. Is that where the problem would be? Because like we said, we think we know what people are thinking. We assume that they know what we are thinking, but they don’t. So is it a case of realizing that there’s a narrative that we’ve attached and this narrative that they’ve attached and that it might not be that we don’t have the same values, but we just don’t have congruent narratives and we haven’t communicated?


    But also during during during the relationship thing, the courtship phase, the person that you learned you become familiar with, if that is the person that you enter the marriage with and usually at that point in the relationship are attentive, you make the extra effort, you do all the things. And unfortunately, sometimes you expect that continues into the relationship and into the marriage unchanged. Whereas once you get married and I suppose real life starts to take hold. You relax so that Shunta time, keeping the attention to all the various and certain things start to get overlooked and changes.


    So the person or the behavioral pattern that you had become familiar with for marriage. Starts to get a little bit tarnished for want of a better word, it’s not, and that can and that can lead to disappointment in some respects. It’s not that you don’t expect to make adjustments because you have moved from a life of single them to a cohabiting situation where you have to make adjustments in behavior and expectations, as you know, the usual stuff. But.


    It can get to the point where in you wonder if you actually knew the person. I’m not that’s not what happened to me, but I’m just saying, as an expert, yeah, I think we have certain expectations and then people will do give more. And there is a natural dropoff in relationships around about two or three years, like the honeymoon phase will only last to them. And when someone feels that they get unless they often give less, but the expectations don’t change.


    They still the expectations we have. And so the gap becomes bigger and bigger. I think in terms of values, values are quite big. You know, we talk about freedom, independence, respect, all of these things is values. But that’s a big concept. And we can say like, oh, yeah, we agree on these values, but no one exactly agrees because no one’s noticing people’s personal narratives are the same. And so the values are like the big category of what we actually mean.


    And so we we agree. But the further into the experience, the fervor into the relationship that we go, the more we see situations where that where we have where our differences in those values are. And so we can think that, you know, you often hear young couples and they like how that we love each other and and love will get us through. And we have the same values. And basically what they mean is they have the same kind of career goals.


    They want to have children. They want to live in the same kind of area. That’s the big issues. But the smaller issues are like the lightness. The smaller issues are like, do we go for a bigger house or do we sell here? Do we are we more ambitious, all of these things and gradually get more and more branches where eventually every couple is going to split in terms of their expectations and how they what they want and what they value.


    So it’s it’s about communication all the time. It’s about what what are the expense, what the unstated expectations and law is, the emotions and the narrative driving the problems underneath them. So do you do you want to go on to the next day or do you want to carry on exploring this where we’re talking about what’s the next step? Well, the next day I had was.


    We talked about what the way you wants to mass, where he wants to have mastery and the next bit was. Are you in those fields? That you’ve said are the key drivers to your life and happiness. Are you dabbling in obsessing or pursuing mastery? Sandra’s laughing. Uh. Can you give us that again?


    Not yet. So we talked about the fields that were important to our life, so the three to seven things that we feel that we need. And my question is on each of those fields. Are you dabbling, hacking, as you remember last week, we talked about the doubling, hacking, obsessing. Or pursuing mastery. I think. If you think about. The city of gaining control by giving away. Which is faith, which is an assumed results without Brenda.


    Yes, surrendered and surrendered, because if you surrender, then. You don’t fight anymore. And when we fight, we have our energy taken away. But then when we have our energy, we were able to pull that energy into the things that genuinely matter rather than being worried or concerned or wasting energy on essentially things that don’t matter where control comes in. So I think in terms of mustardy. I personally feel that going on, I spoke about this before going down to face to face, which I genuinely, genuinely.


    Trying to focus more and more and more on on the risk in being more faithful and things and letting things go. I was going to bring up when you mentioned freedom and then after I thought about it a little while and I thought I remember months ago you talked about being on this path and I was going to. Yeah, bring up that. That’s clearly a path that you’ll pursue in the mainstream.


    Yeah, I have definitely suffered. Um.


    Some chinks, some bumps in the road to say that hasn’t really tested this this idea of mine, mine, but it’s a sport. This journey that I’m pursuing definitely experienced. But I’ve got I’ve got four by. Going down to faith is even stronger. So I’ve been without religion to provide any information on what it was, but it was a situation where things got really, really took a turn for the worst and there was no way out. But I just let it all go.


    OK. Let’s go down to factories and then it worked itself out. So. It’s an interesting it’s an interesting way to be, well, with a powerful master who is always going to be challenging. It’s like the hero’s journey, isn’t it? It’s you’re always going to be tested. It’s going to be you’re going to feel humiliation. You’re going to feel challenged, afraid, anxious, all of those things. So is it a lot like a structured fight for your own?


    Am I? Well, I also am in a deep. You know. Got to one person isn’t God to someone else and has totally different meanings in the same way his mother has been to, and father and brother and sister in the same way is different meanings to everybody else. But the way I see it is that as a human being. I’m flesh and blood and. You know, most of the stuff in life is beyond my control. You know, I can’t control what the weather’s like.


    I can’t control loads of stuff, but if I was to spend energy, which I have in the past trying to control stuff, then that would lead me Lacon. I’m not sure like depression and stuff like that comes in. I feel so I look as though there’s so many things that I don’t see yet. You still work out and. If I’m in a position where as a human being, I can’t get myself out of it or I don’t know what to do, I just let it go and I’ll say prayers to, you know, to God knows where I am and believe it.


    And then it tends to come from.


    So, yeah, I about looking out, looking beyond yourself for the answer, I suppose, as far as independence is concerned, freedom.


    I think somewhere along the way and I’m not a hacker or whatever those you know, I, I can’t say that I have fully mastered it, but I think I have reclaimed my. Ability to make my my choices. And and to be true to, I suppose, the things that drive me.


    And for me, that’s that’s that’s freedom, less independence in yeah, in that sense, in that regard, of course, there are other things that kind of need. You’re not completely free, but still. I think the point mastery is that you never achieve it, so it’s an area where you’re always focusing on improving. Yeah, exactly. But I think I think I’m in a pretty good place where that is concerned. But they are the ones.


    As well, any exercise, I can always do better, so I have mastered that bit of stuff that never finished. So there’s room for improvement in that. Oh, I need tons of money. But who’s complaining? We all do. Are you are you so so after you would mean so like I think most areas I’m not on the path of mastery. No. No. Yes. Some areas you just don’t pay so much attention to. Yeah.


    But this is the point. I think. I think what I’m describing is actually a work in progress, but not at the failing end, heading towards where if it all comes together, then I presume the work that I would use for myself is I would be content.


    So when we’re talking about the path of mastery, we’re looking at Hacken obsessing and dabbling on the path that you’re never going to get any better. You’re looking for immediate results. Being better to the path of mastery is, I think Åhléns shows that. I think you would probably find it was a step back. It was letting go of a lot of the things that you thought you knew and a lot of the things that would get you immediate results in order to get long term results.


    So that’s what you’re looking at. That’s that’s why I’m saying what I’m coaching myself in my description of myself in those terms as I work in progress because I think I am aspiring to to mastery, but I have not mastered. But I think that I understand. To some degree, what I need to do or what I’m doing, and in that I am acknowledging that I am making progress, that I can see and I know and I know that I still have room for improvement.


    So, for example, I well, we’ve had this long discussion today about the relationships, my version of what is an ideal relationship for me now. And well, no, I’m not doubling down. I’m not what have you. I don’t have a relationship.


    But my approach would not be to to to to not put in the effort. Or, you know, to double to run away and to or to not make an effort, so I would probably put myself at a neutral point where that is concerned. It’s a start, but what the positive is that I have recognized it and I’ve acknowledged it and I am trying to do something about it.


    I mean, I would say I would say I’ve been a dabbler, a hacker, an obsessive in relationships.


    So it’s not about it’s about mastery is about do you let go of all those things to pursue on the end of the end goal?


    So the next question is, just clarifies what is the point of asking ourselves if we’re perceiving most from the Times realize that we’re perhaps dabbling, but we need to prioritize and focus on the very thing that we really want?


    Yeah, I think so. If you’re looking at what’s really going to make us happy. It’s going to be the long term success. But the tabloid, the hacking and the obsession are when you want short term success at the expense of the long term mastery. So the next question which might help is mastery is about not doing lots of things, but trying to master a few key elements. There’s a few key factors to everything, and it’s cutting everything else off.


    But for those factors, so what are the three to five key factors in each area where you’re pursuing mastery? So we might make the decision not to pursue mastery because there’s only so many things that you can master. So what would you say are the three to five key areas in each area where you’re pursuing mastery? So an area where you decide this is what I really want. So so, Alan, I think we would have it for the freedom journey.


    I think Ariel would have it for his business success.


    So where are the most important areas where mastery is most important to you at the moment?


    And what are the key factors?


    You take a moment. To think for ourselves, to write down the key areas that you’re looking for and where. What are the key factors in wherever you are pursuing mastery? What are the key factors that you need to focus on? Like, if I was thinking of chess, I would write End Game, the opening game tactics. Yeah, probably so, for example, like health in health, you’re looking at sleep, sugar, strength, stamina, suppleness.


    Stress. I would say that there probably and probably say in terms of its current sugar and probably having more Whole Foods or vegetables, and they’re probably the key drivers to health. Size is nine. Sam, talk about what average the. To help. I had to look at health and the book Food Exercise, not excessive drinking or smoking. Yes, myself, I have sleep, hmm. I need to sleep properly and exercise those that sleep is the one I’m working on at the moment in trying to get to bed and get sleep.


    And I’d say, what sort of self self development is helpful to that group and just put like good routine, good work, rest, play, balance, good diet and exercise. This is something that you’re going to be focused on for this year, and these are things that I’m always so focused on anyway. I mean, it’s just like in on a timeline, I’ve already made tons of progress and it’s just about keep in keep you working at them until I got to the place.


    I want to be out with the.


    OK, any other areas? So let’s say money and money is not. Money in Korea is not really like a priority for me. And community empowering tenso parents in connection, trust, communication and growth on community sort of anchored in myself and who I am and what what’s important to me. And support was equally and fairly to the best of my abilities, ability and finding balance in the. So community is a big one for you. Yeah. So as in connecting with the community or doing school in the community, really being part of a community.


    I did money as well, and it’s about restructuring my financial situation to reflect my single. Yeah, so as in like finalizing, yeah, and yeah.


    And, um, and usually that one relationship ended as well, but it was just one one to just having a structured approach to finding a compatible person. And with covid, one current one doesn’t have much leeway to move about it, so it’s it’s kind of restrictive in a sense. So. But that’s it. OK, so the next question is. If those are the factors, what are the projects practices? Habis. And learnings that you need to do.


    This year in order to. Chief. Progress. So, for example, like Sandra, you said in like in terms of money, that’s a project, really, isn’t it? So that’s a project in terms of community, I guess, that would be more practiced of this is an ongoing thing that you probably want to do. That’s more habits and practices for all of mine. It’s just about keep practicing, keep trying. And then is like reading and learning on some subjects.


    Mm hmm. Yeah. And when it comes to health, it’s for me, it’s it’s really about finding balance and learning certain techniques and having a structured approach to my day so that I can exercise, but also so that I can wind down to get to sleep. And that’s important that because sometimes my day will. Because most of my work colleagues are in a different time zone. My dad starts late. So I will start at around noon. My main work where my two main work colleagues are in Jamaica and they are five hours behind, so my day starts when you’re halfway through.


    So there are nights when I’m working at this time. And so if I’m writing a report or doing research, my brain is going at not at this time.


    Would it not be that your that would it not be that your your day just is different? Well, there’s always that knock you off being able to sort of socialize in England. No, no, no.


    The socializing is not the problem. The problem is that I’m so wound up and my brain is going and I’m thinking and I’m having ideas. And so when it’s midnight, like if I’m having a brainstorming session with one of my colleagues or if she’s she’s she gets an idea, a brilliant idea and she calls me what’s five o’clock for her is ten o’clock. Yeah. You know, it’s eight o’clock for her. And she sends a message. The phone is picking it at 2:00 in the morning.


    Oh, God. Yeah. She’s got an idea. It must be her. So those are the kinds of things. So yes, I need to turn my phone down and make sure that I is at 2:00 in the morning or whatever when some brilliant idea is coming. So that is part of my problem. But socializing. No, that’s that’s that’s OK.


    Because what I was going to say is, like I was I was going to say is either that you just have you or I was different to everybody else’s and you live in on a Jamaican time line in England or you have to have some boundaries. And like, this is a cut off point. And I’m not taking calls after this time.


    And it’s easy when you work for yourself.


    It’s kind of hard because, like, if you are writing a report, for example, like last late last year, going into early this year, as did my colleague and I, we were doing a report for a UN body.


    Right. And they set boundaries as to when the contract should be finished. And you have to write and you have to do the research and you have to talk to people and you are doing it. And then you have to give you an interim report and they send it to other people to read. These are the people decide that they want X and Y, and so they give you extra things to put in. And the deadline is the same, which means that you don’t go to bed.


    Is that all of the time, though, or is that just intense?


    It’s it’s intense. Yeah. These these things can go on for like six months, like one project.


    So it can be quite a big portion of time that you’re tired. You’re tired of that. Yeah. And and then if you’re once you have deadlines, then it’d be really, really difficult to find any structure in all of that.


    That’s that’s the point.


    That’s why I’m saying I have to try to find a way to get exercise in and to find a way to unwind. While it’s still night, I sleep at night so my circadian rhythms don’t go out of whack with the world I live in. Yes, I tend to I tend to work in the morning, so I get up, work out, I work in the morning until about 7:00 at two o’clock, and then I’ll I’ll eat then. So that’ll be my meal for the day.


    So I’ll cook and eat and then my notes, my energy drops. So then after it picks up again, some sort of tide in the evening. But then I work in the evening and then I wake up like. Eight, nine o’clock is when my daughter naturally most awake, and then it’s, yes, hard to switch off. And especially like last week, I had podcasts that were at night because it’s like American time or Australian time. And so you agree to there.


    And then it’s very late and then it’s hard to I guess that’s one of the downfalls of the Web and being connected to the world as much as we are these days.


    Like my my, my my best friend lives in Miami and she writes, and when she writes an article, I’m on her her editorial group, she sends it. So of course she finishes it and she wants it to be published. Then it’s another thing, it’s OK reading and critiquing and talking to her. And that can occur at any hour because she’s five hours behind as well for five hours behind as well. So everybody that I’m dealing with, it’s behind.


    I have one person who I’m dealing with who is in Myanmar. That’s another drama, because like now he might be awake and 3:00 in the morning and I get a whole set of stuff from him as well. But I can handle that. That’s that that’s not too much. But it’s just that it’s a 24 hour day. It feels like a 24 hour day. That you don’t you are on your own call, you feel like you’re on call, and so you are loaded up and you never really go into a really deep sleep.


    Betty. Yes, to our dual sort of import rules or anything. Well, actually, I really keyboard’s routine. Um, a routine blood wake, because I tend to sleep at funny times, so I went to bed early or a specific time, wake up and prepare for things like breakfast and point myself, which is a form of preparing for the fitness stuff and also for things like journaling and meditation. So I suppose in a sense, every now and again, what I’m thinking is this, this is not the New Year’s resolution type thing, but every so often to do a check to make sure that things are still in sync and to make the necessary adjustments to keep the balance, which is something that I haven’t I haven’t been doing.


    And so I fall off, you know, and started my yoga again, and I was doing Taichi and what have you and doing the videos and then something happens and then it all just goes out. And it’s to bring yourself back and say, OK, you haven’t failed, just get back on and start again. And that to me is you have to actually sit down and say, yeah, I’m going to do this, let me do this, let me start and structure the day.


    And that’s what I need to do again, I think. Because when I exercise, I sleep, I will sleep. Yeah, it’s it’s the it’s the discipline of like I know with exercise, if I leave, you know, like when you wake up or whatever you catch phrase like and you and a new narratives, that gives yourself an excuse. But I know if I don’t do it, then the next day be harder than the next, they’ll be harder.


    And then after two weeks it will kill and you’ll want to do it. So it just has to be just get up there and I think. And the thing that I don’t do is I don’t like I may sometimes set up a routine and I don’t have like a camera to stop. So I’m going to read I’m going to do this. I’m going to do that. And it won’t be down. And it’s it’s we only have so much willpower.


    And so we have to focus what that willpower, what we can to use that on. So what are the key projects? What are the key things that we need to master? I need to scratch my five p.m. cup of tea, caffeine. That lead is not good for sleep. Yeah, I finally have coffee in the morning. I only have one or two coffees, but in the morning I’m a tea drinker. I’ll drink tea, I drink tea and I’ll have four or five cups of tea for the day.


    So I need to scrap the last one and that would probably help.


    But I think there is something that we are all talking about, but we aren’t talking specifically to it. And it’s yes, we have identified these issues, these areas. But there is a thing I might not use the right phrase, but peace of mind. Do all of these things contribute to us really content in our minds, and is that what we are seeking and do we know when we arrive at it? I think any of these things and individual for each person, but I think the things that we most worry about are money, career, relationships, health.


    I think insight into lifestyle really can be. Can be, yeah. And so the way I differentiate is money is money. If you’re worrying about paying bills and things, that’s money. If you’re worrying about so often is the main source of income. So there are some people that may be retired or don’t work or don’t need to work. And for them, money can be more important, like managing the money or somebody’s got a lot of money. They have to worry more about not losing their money than actually making it so careers can be for income.


    But it’s also for meaning and not the stable income. But those are the things that we worry about and we worry about them because we haven’t got control of a Mostri is how you get control of those things. So that’s really what it’s about. It’s about this.


    Sorry, I don’t know. This ties into what you were saying, both going to the plant analogy again and we mentioned in peace of mind. And if we see ourselves as a plant and we need the right soil, the right nutrients, we need repotting every now and again. So like the right environment and the way away from Dressel, it needs. And I think the more our needs are being fulfilled, like having times of solitude, having the right social sort of balance of relationships and and health and good rest.


    And all of these are the things that we need, emotional and mental support. Intellectual stimulation and if we’re having all of these needs met, I think that’s when we find the peace of mind. I don’t know if that ties in with this. Yes, because the only way that we get all of these things is by focusing on mastery. So if you do if you’re obsessed, if you’re hacking or dabbling, you never you’re relying on luck. And what results are temporary, so Mostri is the only way that you must know you can be certain of results and once you so if you’ve achieved mastery, so you’ve you’ve worked your career and you develop so that you’ve developed so much knowledge, so much skill that you can a decent income to work, that you can relax a little bit, then the worries that you have about work are more about working and going well.


    It’s not where am I going to get a job? Where am I? How am I going to pay my bills? If you have the relationship sorted, if you have the health sorted, your your problem, you always going to have problems. But the problem is, is smaller, whereas the problems are more dramatic. If you’ve always dabbled, in fact and you know, I know this is a really small, silly example, but I remember being young and living on my own and, you know, being really overwhelmed with the small tasks like keeping the house clean and like that.


    Now, I can think, you know, she was really worried at my age and like now it’s just a total and it’s I don’t think that’s true for everything that we do in life. We go through the stage of worrying while we learned. And then, like you said, the master, once you you’ve practiced that many times, you overcome all of the mistakes. It’s just it’s not even an issue anymore. It’s second nature, isn’t it, by at some point?




    I think that piece of mind thing also speaks to an ability for you to have come to a state where you understand what you want. Your goals are the. Are are defined by you and not set by external influences. In other words, society, community, whatever, keeping up with the Joneses or whatever. Those, to me are the external things that sometimes people use as benchmarks. But you have defined what’s important to you, and those are the goals that you try to meet in terms of this mastery.


    To attain those rather than those that are defined for you, yeah. For example, freedom is the ability to remove yourself from the expectations of others. Part of you. Yeah, I mean, we always do anyway. So, like, keeping up with the Joneses is a manifestation of wanting recognition. And if we if we, like most people, would just go, oh, we need a bigger car, we need a bigger house because of that.


    But if you look at what’s really what’s really driving this, what am I really looking for? Then you get our recognition. Why do I want recognition? What’s missing? Because my dad always said I’d never amount to anything or something like that. And so the more clear we can get on there, the more reason we’re doing it genuinely. So in using the plant analogy is we always need something, but what is it we need? And the claim that we can get, the more accurate we can we can be is it’s like, for example, people when they play golf.


    So they aim for the green. So there’s a hole in the green, but you aiming for the green, but really you’re aiming for the hole. And when you aim for the green, you might get miles away, but if you actually if you’re accurate enough that you can aim for the green in the same way if we know what the hell is and what the green is. So the whole being the goal and the green being the external. So, for example, if we say we want to keep up with the Joneses, that’s the green.


    The whole thing dragged around everywhere all the time.


    And you don’t really know why are you doing this and doing that. And yeah. So what you’re doing is you get the green, but you might still have free or if you play golf least seven days to check, you know. So it’s much quicker if you know exactly what the goal is.


    And it just sounds you’re saying about like having the goal. And someone was saying recently I thought it was quite true, is that we can set goals. But the aim isn’t to reach. The goal is to work towards the goal because sometimes the goal is out of control. And if we don’t meet the goal, then we feel like a failure. So it’s more about setting a direction than actually hitting the target. Exactly. And then if you hit the target and you meet that goal, and that’s sort of like an added bonus.


    Exactly. So in terms of relationships, the goal shouldn’t be the relationship. You want to look at what are the practices that lead me to a great relationship direction and then focus on the practice. But we did one about this to talk about lagging in leading indicators. But you’re not going to get the relationship until you’ve put the practices in the relationship that you want lastingly. And so you much better measure what other behaviors, actions that I need to do that I’m in control of.


    Yeah. And then the result naturally comes. So as long as the persons group this is like my view, at least as long as the person’s good natured enough and wants good for themselves in life. As you know, this is saying that is it a psychopath is somebody who keeps trying the same thing and expecting a different result or something along that line. Is it what insanity is doing? Sorry, our insanity is we keep trying the same thing and expecting the same results.


    I think it’s just about creativity. So if the other person is good natured or no. I’m home schooled for themselves as long as not that there is always room for the creativity to get to the desired outcome. You could be trying something and it doesn’t work. The creative. OK, what else can I try if that doesn’t work? OK, what else can I try? And I think is that space for creativity, the. Is the potential that moves things forward?


    Yeah, so if we’re talking about relationships, the way I would say is the obsessive, the hacker and the doubler are about the relationship there and then whereas. How the relationship is there and then or what they expect out of the relationship are in the boat, how the relationship of how well they went out, whereas someone pursuing master, your relationship focuses on the practices. Because the desired outcome, because they can’t control the other person and the relationship, that relationship may not work, but they still develop the skills, the millage, the boundaries, all of those things that will lead them to a relationship, whether it’s with that person or not.


    Yeah, well, it’s Mastery’s pursuing on the journey and not the end result. It’s the the thrill seeker who is always looking for the thrill of the chase in the relationship, and once the thrill is over because he’s conquered or she has conquered, then they are bored. So they go to the next conquest. So I presume that that would be a tableau they don’t put the effort in. You only put in enough effort to get the thrill, to get the outcome that you want.


    And once you’ve got it and it’s no longer diminishing returns, then you go on to the next thrill.


    Which to me is really energy drain, the energy drain and I would think painful. Yeah, I don’t know, you evolve to a certain point and then you don’t I don’t see how you can go beyond beyond where you always stop.


    But then that’s that’s why they never developed the skills. Yeah, exactly. I suppose one of the things that we also probably should look at, too, is our ability. We need to be agile, flexible for want of a better term in terms of how we approach, how we make progress in in any of these. You will have setbacks. We will fail at some things. So as Sasha says, you need to be flexible. You need to be able to change.


    You need to be open to change. You need to be open to new ways of doing things so that ultimately you will look and see that you have made progress towards the aims that you you had set out. Because I think some of us sometimes focus so hard, it’s like a student trying to get a degree or, you know, and they focus on nothing else. And even though the degree may be the wrong degree and I’ve been to university with a number of students like that and they want to be like that, you know, especially the med students wanting to be doctors.


    And it’s an obsession because mommy and daddy see and they want and it’s going to give them all the respectability in society and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they are not up to scratch and their mental issues that arise from that obsession. And they will not consider any other choice of study that’s presented to them. Nothing out of the university. And I think that kind of fixity of purpose, even though it’s good in one sense, can be destructive in another.


    It is because it’s a fixation on the end result. Yeah. So I think of mastery as someone like Bruce Lee and everyone wanted to be like Bruce Lee, like everyone wants, you know, there’s hundreds of people by watch the films and things like that, but. I don’t think for someone like that, it’s about being in the film or it’s about the end result. It was about the actual love of the training of developing further and going beyond where everyone else had gone.


    Come here. And it’s also about having some positive role models.


    Well, sometimes I think you can’t get on the journey without because you need someone to learn from, you need someone to inspire you, someone to learn from. So, yeah, I mean, when you look at because when I think of marquetry, I think and actually I think like when George Leonard I think he was an Iquito think is probably where it sort of comes from. But we see a lot in the culture from that scenario. Like martial arts is an area where people go in and give an inordinate amount of time and energy.


    What force you can do this flying kid with such precision, like, well, real value is that. But it’s because it’s not really about. The kick, it’s about overcoming yourself, overcoming the limitations, and so, so much history is falling in love with the ability to transcend your limitations. They say you should have somebody say, I’m sorry or you committed somebody to learn from what if you don’t have somebody practicably to learn from the set with books coming?




    Yeah, I think I think you can. In what kind of field? Because. Well, I don’t suppose there’s not any fields that adult books or videos on. But is there a particular field that you can think of where just just life in general? Yeah, I think imprisonment. I think I think what it is, is we need to see it’s possible. So the big thing in relationships, one of the things I’ve learned is I write a lot.


    I share a lot of ideas. And actually that’s not really in people’s best. That’s not really a best service to most people because people will get the idea. I think that they understand it, but there’s a difference between intellectual understanding and actually practicing. And actually, I’d be better on working on people’s motivation and belief because the biggest problem most people have in their relationships is that they don’t think they can be better. They don’t think that there is so self limiting beliefs.


    Yeah. And I think when you look at relationships, I think we have a medieval mentality to them. So if you look at three hundred years ago and the field of medicine, it was when someone got sick, mostly they thought it was a curse from God. They thought it was witchcraft, someone to put a spell on them. Is this in England? Yeah, anywhere like four hundred years ago, there wasn’t really a very developed medical field because there was such a strong religious belief, because the church was so powerful and the priests would say, oh, this is from God and you need to come to us.


    And I think that’s more of a Western thing, possibly because it is to say no. Yeah. I mean, I can’t really not have not been, you know, fully conversant with you. I know, like, Eastern medicine is different, but yes, there wasn’t really a. A belief in sight in science, and so it took like a science, a belief in science before we understood. Okay, there’s a disease, there’s a cause for the disease.


    Let’s treat the cause. And now our population grew from nineteen. Nineteen hundred to now, like over seven times, seven times the population, because that’s one of the problems I know it’s overpopulated. This is just too many people.


    And then the that the problem for that, you know, Muslims in New Nuke, everyone else, that that will keep them in line.


    Oh, covid is is is here and bit in control in controlling us, unfortunately.


    What would you say. So did you get what you were saying was so concepts of change and science came in with medical. You think we’ve also got medieval views of relationships.


    So in relationships we have our views of a relationship are like our views of medicine were 400 years ago, 30 years ago. People won’t go to the doctor. Yeah, I mean, it was it was my stall. Sorry to maintain to the same type of stuff.


    Not some of that, but more is the fact that people don’t think there’s a solution. A couple will get in stalemate and we just got to power. That’s not the person. So we talked about adult child being a child. Now, that’s body that’s a refined perception. The and I like the fact that a couple have come to a stalemate. They think this is it. OK, we’ll go to counseling. But even counselors, they still working from that kind of basis.


    And there isn’t really like counseling is on like where’s the knowledge base the counselors are working from? Counselors work with. OK, you think they can we resolve it so they. People don’t see there being the solution. Because there isn’t enough knowledge. And so, really, a lot of the a lot of marriages could be fixed if people if they had different assumptions, expectations about the relationship, first of all, you can build it so it doesn’t you don’t get to those problems.


    Do you think, though, Waqas marriage is I don’t mean to go off on a tangent, but do you think marriage is you know, there’s a much more divorce. And I think, you know, because people’s. People I don’t know if it’s commitment, but people people are. People would stay in marriages for various different reasons, or people are more likely to stay the course of a marriage.


    I don’t know how satisfying they were or yeah, I think they kind of stay in power anymore.


    Well, I think they don’t have that staying power because they don’t have the same physical struggle. Now. You have to look at the time frame, though, that you’re talking about, because if you go back a couple of centuries, life expectation and expectancy was a lot shorter. Stayed in a marriage was not something that was going to be 50 years or 40 years or whatever. People died, married. Young life was brutish in a way. So I think the structures that we are looking at and call marriage now is an institution that is it’s it’s a lifetime, a literal lifetime, 50, 60 years on average.


    And people change significantly over that period. But also, I think we have to have a discussion about the framing of marriage, what is marriage, what and as you’re seeing that it hasn’t really changed from the way it was structured in in the past. And that is the question to people coming together in a marriage. Are they framing their marriage themselves or is it the framing that society has imposed on them and they have to live within that structure? And in many instances, people are probably finding it increasingly difficult to live within the confines of that structure.


    And I know that, for example, and these are simple things, but they used to give me the creeps. I used to get really angry. Our lawyer said he was he was a he’s a friend. Right. So, I mean, he was at university with me.


    So we are on a first name basis and he would say, come, Betty and Betty do so.


    He said, come, Betty, you know, you have to sign this as well because, you know, your husband is in charge of you. You know you know, the laws are antiquated, but we know we know it’s not so. But for legal reasons, you just have to sign it, you know, because. You need to sign and the way people term you, you are the other half, you are the the it’s like the husband’s appendage.


    And so those are the things that people see and do. In other words, their framing the relationship and how it’s always going to operate. And you just slide right into it. If you don’t make a conscious effort of understanding the pillars on which your relationship sit and your marriage is going to perform, which is why, for example, you still see articles by husbands who are stay-at-home dads and how they feel strange and in some circumstances and they feel alienated and they are the only man in the baby group on a morning because they are challenging the norm.


    And many of us do go into marriages without questioning whether those norms imposed on us by society are suitable for us.


    It is completely different, different for each couple and it’s for each couple to decide what’s right for them to, but then understand that there is going to be social pressures and that they’re going to support each other through that.


    It is that counseling should come before the marriage. Then when there is a problem in the marriage, pre marriage counseling type of stuff. Yeah. So so I don’t I don’t mean to sort of overcomplicate you might fall with the sort of magical and the the, the marriage being sort of medieval bull. So you saying like we’ve medical, they didn’t understand the cause and it kind of have these sort of.


    And false reasons for why people were getting ill or marriages used to, like I said, I don’t know how satisfying they were, but marriages used to work much more so in medieval times, or at least last. The course of Sandra’s points are completely irrelevant, but I’m just not sure I completely get them out of jail.


    OK, yeah. OK, so. In the medical, if someone was sick. They didn’t look they didn’t go to the pharmacy because there wasn’t a pharmacy, is it kind of getting to the point that people would just stay in unhappy relationships rather than get to the solution of the problem? That’s the problem and the solution of the problem.


    Well, Rob, I just need to add one thing here. I think that’s what. And a little bit of color. Any countries in days gone by, marriages were alliances, there were alliances between families, there were alliances that gave political reasons and stuff. So you had to stay together.


    It wasn’t about romance. Romance is a new and love of a sudden new thing that Shakespeare and Romeo and Juliet before that marriages were. And like even in India, where they look at, you know, your contribution and your family and whatever, before the alliances like the Hindu weddings and so forth, the it’s so full a new concept.


    So if you if you break up, whereas now it’s individual choice to marry an individual marrying an individual. For them, it was families aligning themselves in another family. So if you break up, then you’re breaking up communities in a sense. So. That there is there’s that and also I think when you look at when the divorce rate happened, so I think that traditionally and then you’re looking at 1950s when the divorce rate started to go. Now, first of all, there hadn’t been the expectation.


    So let’s say there wasn’t the expectation of big happy.


    So this year that sexual revelations and all that sort of stuff as well, though, since then and I’m wondering how and what timeline that happened and where that fits into things. So so you’re looking at that’s from about the 60s. So but if we go back to when the doors first started. So until that time when you think there wasn’t really a mass media, there was radio, there was cinema, but we won. The television was up to 1950, probably wasn’t there.


    So we weren’t getting so many messages. But there was also it was still quite religious. There’s still a lot of shame and a lot of peer pressure to stay in a relationship. There wasn’t. Like, you know, when you’re talking about the sexual revolution, a woman couldn’t leave the marriage and then go out and date lots of people. I think this is partly to do with this. And you brought this up as well earlier on.


    I think the law plays a big role in it because women didn’t have independence before about 1950.


    So it will vary from country to country. And it still does, doesn’t it?


    Yeah, of course, because of the customs and the culture and how strong that that pressure is. But there’s so so what you’ve got from 1950 on, you’ve got the expectations have gone sky high with media. You’ve also got with technology, there’s like less social pressure because divorce is now quite commonplace, whereas once there was a show. So what that also creates is it creates a marketplace of other alternative partners. You’ve got women going out in the workplace so they have more opportunity, they makes more.


    And so there’s more like people that they could spend was the Second World War just 1947, it finished. So that was like the Second World War was really the First World War was when women got a lot of power because they needed to come out and make the boys and all the rest of it. They needed them in the workforce. Yeah. And so the second what happened in the Second World War was men came back. Women had increasingly shown that they could cope without men.


    I didn’t need men. A lot of men came back damaged. And so then you’ve also got the media’s grown. So there’s talk people are starting to talk about their life. You know, before when someone was passionate about home, they didn’t tell anyone. And if they did tell people, it’s like, yeah, well, that happens to me. Just just keep quiet about it and I can do about it. Yes. So increasingly, we’re more open about things.


    So now you’ve got a situation where people are not to start, not to sort of like make it more complicated. But then on the flip side, you’ve got things like social services, like the. I don’t know how to explain. So you were talking about bacteria, for example, and I don’t know if there’s any small services or that social services can now force people to split open stuff like that. And what is what was my point? Never mind.


    So there are all these structures.


    It’s a lot easier to leave a relationship. Now, one thing that also makes it more complicated, because it’s almost like an outside force has the power to do something now. So people expect outside forces to fix the problem.


    Yes, I mean, I think there is a lot of that. I think there’s a lot of people do abdicate and then they can get too involved as well. Yeah, but I think, you know, I think that’s that’s a small minority that take. I think there’s a lot of relationships. I don’t think people change. But I think what change is just their expectations of what they want from relationship, their alternative options. And so now people are looking for a relationship for emotional satisfaction with centuries.


    They were just staying together for physical survival. The physical survival was enough. And I think you can’t underestimate that before 1950 when you talk in social services. There wasn’t a welfare system. The welfare system are started very like in a very basic way in the 20s. So there wasn’t like if you left your husband, you won’t get a council house and money, like for a lot of people, a lot of women, there’s like, how how can you afford them?


    Yeah. And so people haven’t actually changed. But what’s changed is their options are so much easier and their expectations are higher. I think what you’re talking about, though, is this the cultural and social norms. But then I also always think there’s an exception to that. There’s always something that’s going right in right throughout history within that context. So I’m just thinking of some particular history that I know of ancient history, what you’ll explain, and it’s kind of like from another context in all four countries, it was like this barbarism going on.


    And all of the things you were explaining, what happened in there was also a segment of people that were living completely different than that and with a feeling each other’s emotional needs and all the rest of it.


    Yes. Yes. So it’s that we’re talking about the culture. We’re talking about the culture. Like I know the culture of here, but not in other cultures. There are very different types of like you might be true. I don’t know much about the history of England, but they might be also culture within English history that. So you’re describing the norm. They might have been a small portion of people that were older than the norm. I’m not saying there’s a possibility that that was still exist and then.


    Yeah, yeah. No, of course, there’s there’s always everything exists, always everywhere. So the brutality is still somewhere. And even in the most brutal times, there were people who had the best of relationships and who were the best people. But one of the things when I’m talking about it being medieval mentality, I’m saying is, number one, they don’t see there being a principal or something that they can control something. They don’t see the cause when so much so.


    So I was just talking in general. So generalizing. I’m just saying as a mass. As a mass, when we look at mainstream media mass, the mass of people, you’re talking more about the mainstream moving towards what’s right. Well, I’m talking about when you’re looking at, like, generalizing, I think you have to look at a mainstream. I don’t think it’s going to get better, I think she is going to get worse and because people have too much to say, too much freedom, I mean, in the sense of too much liberalism and too this like you’re saying about the media, the most people’s education or don’t have education is the right word.


    But most people are tuned into the media and listen into the media. And that’s more powerful than, you know, the small population that are stepping out from that narrative, being fed to them all of the time, the ones that are asleep. So that.


    Yeah, but I think what happens is the problems when whenever there’s a problem in your psychology, there’s a problem in your practicality. And so those problems and I think Trump, the whole Trump drama is shows us what social media does in terms of polarization. It shows us what ignorance and prejudice and all of those kind of things do. And I think eventually people learn from the. So. I think things are getting worse, and I asked you a question before we finish up, because I just realized it’s 10 o’clock.


    Yeah, sure. You know, when were talking about the adult child. Yeah. Do you mean about when we’re not emotionally. Mature or when you when you use the phrase adult child, you mean when they’re coming from the emotional part of your brain?


    Yeah, I think I said it best is when we filled with emotion. Basically, we become like a child. I mean, it’s an ordinary for people to have emotions, so I suppose for somebody to not be considered an adult child, then they would need to be aware of their emotions and respond. Consciously rather than mindlessly, yes, it’s where people, their emotions hijack them. So the emotions run the behavior. Where is an adult controls the behavior?


    So the difference is self-awareness. Not just self-awareness, because you can be aware and still it’s control, it’s being in control of your emotions. So it’s not it’s not that sounds like you’re a robot, but it’s not it’s not that, but it’s that your emotions don’t control your behavior. You’re aware of your emotions, but you don’t let them control you. So a lot of people will lash out at people and they say, well, I was because I’m feeling bad as well as if it’s okay.


    That my son is the key to that is the key to that mindfulness, then. In space, not this way, maybe mindfulness, mindfulness is a technique, but it’s it’s the space emotion. Not trying to push it away, being OK with it being the. I’m not really into it. You can experience emotion without being the emotion, isn’t that part of being an adult is that you are able to rationalize events and apply the appropriate behavior, whereas people probably would do that in retrospect.


    They wouldn’t. They know nothing. Sometimes, yeah. But at the same time, that is how you eat.


    It may become instinctive in a sense because of conditioning over time, but nonetheless it is applying the appropriate behavior to an external stimulus and to to determine behavior is exhibited requires some rational thought. It’s not that’s what I’m that’s what I’m trying to get away from.


    When you said space, is that not the same as mindfulness? When you say space is not watching yourself? What do you mean when you say space, probably mindfulness is not something that comes to like I’d heard the term, but it’s not mine, it’s not the way I think of it. So mindfulness mindfulness is being aware of what you feel? Yeah, probably. It’s the same thing. It’s also dealing with things as they happen, because if you don’t deal with them, the next time that happens is going to trigger.


    So is a level of maturity. But it comes back to what I’m saying, there’s a conscious think thought that your thinking process that happens to be that you are conscious of it or are subconscious, but there is something that happens that is it is on a rational plan. It removes it from the emotional, instinctive, animalistic response. Then that’s. Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking.


    Yeah. There’s the emotion and then there’s the level of control. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.


    And you because of all of your emotions and all of that. Because I always say to my son, it’s like say anger, for example, a lot of us will traditionally go, you know, you can’t be angry. It’s wrong to be angry instead of going, no, it’s OK to be angry. That’s how you feel. It’s important to know how to respond to your anger.


    Yeah, yeah. That that brings to mind. Earlier on, we were talking about adult child and people talking about you tell a child do this and then is about power and control. And it’s about I felt uncomfortable with. And that just clarifies it. Is that if you. Control a child and you say you shouldn’t do that, you should do this, and they will behave like that because they learn by decree, but they don’t develop emotionally. So actually, why a lot of adults have the issue, why they love the adults.


    So road rage and find in pubs is because their parents may be disciplined and controlled their behavior, but they didn’t develop their emotions.


    So how will they develop their emotions, are you saying tell them what’s right and wrong and then give them an option? Right. Martin Long is what is about power and control, because I’m deciding what’s right and wrong. And I’m telling you, this is right, this is wrong. So for me, it’s more about what is your natural blueprint. I know that I believe people are inherently good. And so what do you need? So if you for right and wrong, I think you have to develop it.


    You have to develop your sense of values. You directly develop your sense of maturity. And right and wrong is at different levels of maturity. So when you look at moral development, level three, so that moral development is first, I do what I want someone to savage. I want this I get this next one is I’ll do what makes I’ll do whatever will get me a result. Level three is I follow the rules of the society and then level four is I follow was it not.


    I follow the rules of sorry, I follow principles, but ultimately it’s about not necessarily following the rules of society because all Nazis followed the rules of society. It’s about following absolute principles like freedom, independence, all of those things. What what do you really believe? And a child can only develop. That level of maturity, if they’re taught to think about it and and think for a lot just south, yeah, it’s a mastery is really about attention and energy.


    If you give attention and energy to enough to see something, you see so much more refined and then you can understand it.


    So whenever somebody is somebody contemplates something and they decide to do something that’s not morally correct.


    Well, and this is the exact correlation to what Sasha said about mainstream media. I think a lot of times you have to go wrong before it’s like a rubber band. You go so far wrong, something tragic happens and it brings back the other way because it brings a lot of awareness to it. So if you look at so if you look at the Iraq war, that is an example of where Blair and Bush went headlong into this war without any evidence just because of their biases.


    And so I think what happened is you brought a lot of awareness and energy to that whole conflict and then it’s like being back. And so we’ve got massive. Awareness and energy on that whole, like Middle East conflict that a Middle East, West religious, all of those areas, all of that conflict has massive attention that will eventually get worked out. And in the same way, I think the Trump thing shows what happens when you have social media, when you have someone who winds people up and tries to assert their power in this Black Lives Matter, all of these things are bringing more awareness.


    So the worst thing I think has been political correctness. Because political correctness means people stop using the words, but it doesn’t stop the way that they feel. Well, they think so, do you do you believe that the mass of society is going to wake up? Well, there’s always early adopters. As you always get early adopters, like in any any field, you mournfulness who was talking about mindfulness 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, now it’s, you know, the magazine’s best selling books.


    And that’s because the fairy dust, for reasons, though, because they recognize that people need some sort of spiritual ness and spiritual practice for the good of their own health. And Buddhism sort of fit into that because they say that it’s not a religion. So people adopt the spiritual practices as non-religious practices to keep up society sort of cordoned off, to keep going with the capitalistic sort of drill of everything. And it’s actually taken the religion out of employees that are as a tool to kind of help society survive capitalism.


    But do you think. So I don’t I don’t believe capitalism has has done that. I believe that capitalism has broken people and broken people have looked for a solution.


    And that’s why if you go if people have problems and they go to the doctors and they go to therapy and go through the NHS, is all that. What’s missing is some spiritual aspects and the sort of this watered down Buddhism.


    I think if you don’t have something, you have a problem, like if you don’t have meaning, if you don’t have purpose, if you don’t have emotional fulfillment, if you don’t have a good relationship, you’ve got a problem and people will. So. If you want to look back three hundred years ago. There was that religious view. So people went to the priest rather than the doctor, but the priest answers didn’t help them. So when you look in, I don’t know, is it three, four hundred years ago when priests were selling indulgences to the priesthood, were often the most corrupt and were OK?


    Yeah, well, what you need is you need to pay me this amount of money and you’ll get indulgences and then you’ll be fine. So, yes, I am.


    Yeah, I’m not I’m not talking to I obviously every and every religion is a lot of corruption and indoctrination, but I guess I don’t I can’t remember sort of lost.


    The point of my original question was, do you believe that the mass of society is going to sort of wake up? And I guess what you’re saying is that somebody there’s always somebody that’s created something. That’s how the mass evolved.


    Yeah, it’s there’s a problem. And then there’s a solution that someone believes in. So that’s what happened with mindfulness, there’s a problem is that we think that it’s a minority and not the majority, they move forward. Yeah, you don’t need the majority because you’re trying to get out.


    That’s why I was asking you, is it because you were earlier on you were talking about generally you feel that most people have got this kind of medieval view of relationships. And that’s why I was asking, do you believe that the majority of people are going to wake up and start having fantastic relationships?


    Oh, no, no, no. I think there’s early adopters. There’s people that are really looking for people who want to develop themselves to people looking for answers. They come in and then people see them get results and they’re friends and then it spreads like that. So it takes years. I mean, when you’re looking at mainstream guys from science to mainstream is often like 40 years later before it becomes popular. So the media will always cover things and certain people will grab onto them.


    But I think what you’re seeing now is a multiplication of what I would call various types of experiments happening now. And there’s an explosion of research. There is an explosion of people writing on relationship related matters and self actualization and personhood, etc. So there’s a whole set of literature that’s coming out at a rapid pace to inform the various debates. But nonetheless, I think people feel the need to experiment and there are many different experiments happening. You know, you have same sex relationships.


    You have what you call them, partnerships occurring, and then you’ve got all the different LGBT. Let’s see what I can never remember all of the letters, but you know what I’m talking about, which are becoming part and parcel. They may be considered fringe groups, but they are part and parcel of the whole range of different types of relationships that are evolving. And I think out of that, we will see certain. Certain aspects evolve in which will contribute to how relationships move along, as you’re seeing over time, the early adopters, the deposit on it becomes known, people mimic, people experiment and certain forms become accepted.


    And certain established traditions die away because there’s no longer a space for them. For example, in the Caribbean, because of of slavery past, we where slaves were deliberately family slave families were deliberately broken up. And that was for purposes of keeping making them socially disconnected, because if you had large groups of slaves who spoke the same language, then they could rebel, they could plan rebellions. So you would inevitably take the father away. And sell him to another plantation far away from his, especially if he was very good, he would play fetch a good price because he had good genes.


    And so that brought down that what would be seen as the Christian what we would call the Christian normal of relationships. So in that society, in the Caribbean societies, you found a lot of what would be called common law relationships. In other words, a man and a woman living together but not married formally. And they would have children because the expectation was that the the family was going to be broken up. By the slave, and that has come through into our current situation.


    No, you find more people and turn into, I suppose, professional careers and be more rooted in the development of the nuclear family and children having children. And so you find that, by and large, the middle classes, as they are called, are married and tend to be married, whereas other societies the other way around, everybody had to get married.


    You know, everybody, if you weren’t married, you would be ostracized from society, say, in when was it? Nineteen seventy, whatever it was. Michael Manley got rid of what was called the bastard. The Bastard the act. Because if you were born out of wedlock, wedlock, you were called, you know, the usual, the bastard and and you really were ostracized from lots of things. So I’m just saying that depending on where you are in terms of the cultural norm, there are different structures as to how the society is set up and the importance paid on marriage.


    Because I remember when I was a child, I remember our nanny, she got married and she was so proud because that was respectability that gave her respectability because now she could be called Mrs. Somebody, OK? She was not a girlfriend living in a thing because, of course, this was, you know, we down in the 60s. And so it was it was a source of pride and and it elevated her status because she was doing the right things in the eyes of the church, for example.


    And so her children would be would be seen not as bastards, but of an upstanding family, you know, with good Christian family and those in the eyes of society were seen to be something to be valued. Whereas now we live in many of us live in a society which of a society we are in, almost in an anonymous state, you know, apart from our small community, our extended family, if you live in London, you know, how many how big is your community?


    Who who do you whose whose whose opinion do you value? Who, who whose opinion matters to you? Who looks at you, you know? So it’s those kinds of things, I think that just changed how we behave, but also change how we view the institution of marriage and the importance of marriage. Because the statistics for the UK, I can’t remember when last I saw them, but the number of of of homes that had parents that were not married.


    Had increased, there are a lot more children who are being born out of wedlock than there would have been if in the 60s, the. And John Bradshaw said that’s one of the biggest tragedies of society, is that kids grow up single mothers like Sandra said as well. Just to add to the conversation, the nuclear family is completely different now than it was, and which I don’t think is a positive thing. And I think probably a lot of families to two families work in the schools are left to look after the kids.


    And so the kids are being trained for a much younger age by society than by the whole on. And then, you know, you know, then there’s a lot more relationship problems to solve because nowadays, you know, there’s so many different dynamics going on. And if back to the sort of Manteuffel before we’ve see what you’re saying about magical stuff, and I think to a degree, medical science is really good because, you know, people are dying because of medical science is great.


    And the point of saving lives and preventing death within the handing out anti-depressants to thousands of people that don’t need it from a place of greed.


    So on the flipside of the greatness of this medical science, it can also be used for use, for evil and actually make people sicker and have more problems because they’re on these chemical brain chemicals and drugs.


    Well, wherever there’s a financial incentive. But really what what that’s about is there is no real solution to depression that people know about, because, again, what we’ve done is we’ve looked at depression as a medical issue and sometimes it’s a medical issue and sometimes it isn’t. And so we don’t have a solution. This is what I’m talking about. The medieval mentality is that so in terms of relationships, in terms of like let’s say it’s depression where someone doesn’t have a chemical like a chemical depression, then many people are depressed just because their life isn’t really in order because and it’s really about not having that mastery.


    It’s David Brooks talked about in the Second Mountain about being because our country is so individualist that many people have climbed the first mountain of being successful and having a career and home and things like that, but without any meaning. And so then they get down. And the second mountain is having that community having that sense of purpose of something greater than themselves.


    So that’s part of my point, which is also that the way that all of this research is going on around relationships and stuff like that and the sort of foreigners and the people really developing all of these ideas now, and I think there’s probably a space for that to be used towards corruption as well. I think it’s just something to be aware of.


    Oh, yeah. I mean, I think if you look at a lot if you look at the most popular videos on YouTube and Facebook, there some scary ones to tell people about the genuine research. I say all this funding is going into brain scans on this. These couples and all this money going into research in this university and by these professors and all of this collective knowledge, like all of the collective knowledge from the medical community to develop this, this and this, it can then be misused.


    Yeah, I mean, a lot of when you look at when you look at the state of our food industry, a lot of it is because most employees and most research is funded by the food companies that are making the most money, too. That’s why you have the confusion over Buster margarine, because you’ve got huge companies with huge budgets funding people to fund research.


    The tobacco companies and all of that sort of stuff. Apparently, they also give money to the NHS to cover the costs of their related illnesses that come from tobacco and food and all the rest of it.


    And it’s known that our way of life. When they go to a third world country, an underdeveloped country, and then they give them our infrastructure, they know that the rate of suicide, depression is going to go up and they account for that in in their budgeting. So we know we’re imposing that on people, and yet that’s why I’m talking about the of the medieval mentality, if there was a way of making money that that people knew. But I don’t think it’s that they they don’t know, because if I had a better way, they’d sell that.


    But. I don’t have to think we have to we have to decouple the real need and need that is that is imposed on you. In other words, the as they come up with campaigns to influence you, that you need certain things. And that even applies to the medical world because there’s many things that we can do without that. We are told that we need to have it if we are going to be healthy, for example, you know, all these various portions and what have you.


    So it’s a complex web. But nonetheless, out of all of that, it still has enabled us to live longer, to live to to have more time, in one sense, because of all of the AIDS that we have supposedly to, which should give us more time for ourselves, but clearly not what it does is gives us more time to spend chasing the almighty dollar because we spend more time doing work to make more money. And so we are part and parcel.


    We are all in that, you know, the hamster wheel and we are all just running for our lives on its on it, on it and trying to keep up. And there will yet be something else that will be added to the pot very soon that we will be told that we can’t live without and we are going to work our fingers to the bone to acquire it. It’s just like, you know, Listerine that everybody I hate that stuff.


    You’re told it’s the best mouthwash. Listerine was not designed to be a mouthwash. It was going to be a clean hour for something, OK? Some some cleaning fluid of some sort. And it was not passed. And they decided, well, it it kills bacteria. Let’s reshape it as mouthwash. It’s those kinds of things that we did. I think we are in a world now wherein they can get to us directly, as you said, rob the days of the radio and not having all of these ad campaigns.


    And of course, Hollywood has destroyed a lot of our lives, even the myth of the perfect husband and the perfect wife and all of that. Thanks to Hollywood and Disney, we believe in the myth. But that, I think, has done a lot to destroy our relationships because we have come to expect these gilded versions of perfect relationships from from that kind of media as well as meals on boards and all of that. But nonetheless, that’s another conversation.


    But my thing is that our expectations now versus the medieval in the medieval, they were they were more structured and narrowly defined and community or society defined. And it’s for. As I said, alliances, et cetera. Now is the individual and if you have the power to influence the individual, then you you you have a lot of power, I find. And in days gone by, it used to be the church in the in the main or in some communities, it would have been the witch doctor or whoever it was.


    But now we are self-sufficient in a way. And who do we look to, where do we get our guidance from? Who do we listen to? What elections. But it the Kardashians. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Kim and Kanye are going to divorce. So, I mean, we kind of take their advice. They didn’t work for them. So so the question is, who do we look to for advice?


    Where do we who do we believe and what elements do we decide to incorporate into our existence? Because that’s what will work for us. How do we learn to make those decisions to mean? To me, the fundamental issue is that we are not well equipped. To decipher and ta ta ta ta ta ta ta, look through the hunt through and make the appropriate decisions. Where these, you know. And with all of what’s going on over so many of us end up confused and we are just bumbling along.


    It’s like where you come in, Rob, where you come in, because it’s your work to look through these things and to find separate the wheat from the chaff, as they say. I mean, just to make sense out of nonsense, because there’s just so much. Um, what do you call it? No, the plaster’s the plus does the immediate solutions, the self, the self help, the good self help versus the fake ones. And it’s to know.


    So like with the nuclear family breaking down communities, breaking down kids and not having that same input from the parents that they used to. And now we’ve got sort of like the therapy culture as a result, because the work is so much missing from the individual, they need to find out later on in life. And that happens. And there’s a lot of money to be made in the therapy culture. And I’m not saying that’s bad because I just think that there’s only a few people that really benefit from it and really come out of the other end.


    I think it’s always going to be the minority to actually have healthy relationships and real satisfying relationships and have over good things in the life long the.


    You know, the nuclear family and things like that, structural or political issues, because that’s you look down the mass scale and it isn’t necessarily the nuclear fact that a child needs a nuclear family is many children that grow up in dysfunctional nuclear families. But what I look at, what does the individual and the individual needs love. And they need someone they can talk to. They need trust, all of those things that they can develop. But what I do think is, you know, when you look at in terms of the medieval mentality, what I’m trying to get at is if you look at what marriage.


    So people get married, look at where they spend the money. So, you know, I don’t know what an engagement ring this marriage is, also, when you say look at marriage, I can’t really talk about marriage.


    OK, so that typical typical couple, that isn’t necessarily very healthy. What do they value? What do they spend money in that marriage? To build the empire know like a couple, you know, there is no but there is the getting married bit. Yeah. And the diamond ring, the gown, the party, the whole marriage stuff. OK, so there is a lot of emphasis on that and that has to be done the right way in the wedding cake and yada yada yada.


    And the honeymoon and so on and. And society, depending on how strong you are and what if you are looking down the road versus just the occasion, you can be bankrupt before you actually finish your honeymoon and start your future for the next 30 years.


    Yeah, exactly. And so and that’s before children. And so that starts the process of expectations, too, because if you can find all of this money and you can create this back, then you are not going to be living in a studio flat after the honeymoon is over. You expect more than that because you’ve got a big diamond and you had a lavish wedding. And so therein lies part of the whole start of the expectations which cannot be made to which starts the whole presentment thing.


    I’m working my fingers to the bone and it’s never enough. And and to me, that’s a downhill spiral if you’re not careful. And what it does is it places the emphasis on the spectacle of the wedding rather than the intent of the wedding. Hmm. Mm hmm. So, yes, I mean, when you look a couple on average, they spend thirty two thousand pounds on the wedding and you probably know friends and people who’ve got married of how much time and planning and attention and effort and all of those things to get in the right direction, to get the right flowers and to get in the right all of those things.


    How much time and attention and money did I spend on actually building the relationship? How much time, as they talked about the 30 years after the marriage?


    That’s kind of left. It’s not a priority at all. It’s left to the last priority.


    And and even when you look at when a couple divorces, on average, the divorce cost, aside from housing, the expense of running two homes in that just the divorce cost on average is about 13 grand. Right. And there’s enormous amounts of pain and fighting and attention and energy on that separation of the assets and the separate kind of relationship. And yet, how much of that do they put into making it work? How much they put it into building it, how much they put into making it work when things go wrong?


    That’s what I’m talking about in terms of people, because like the media, what they can tell, they tell you that you have to pay over the odds for wedding photography, for wedding flowers, for wedding, anything that has wedding attached, the price goes right up.


    That’s always been the case in history. Or is this more since media has been in the making? Yeah, I mean, before marriage was a private thing. The church wasn’t initially involved in the in in marriage until about the 10th century. Yeah, and then they wanted to gain control of it and the whole fact will not go on.


    So the whole fact of a marriage, which was going to say earlier, is it’s not a contract between you two. It’s a contract between you and the state, between you and the queen in this country anyway. But it’s it’s a legal contract. And that means that the society has control over the relationship. That’s why it’s so difficult to divorce. Yeah, that’s why I said I think law plays a lot into it, because if we were the law makers, why did they put these laws into place?


    What are they? That is it’s control.


    I mean, the church wants you to say because weddings were happening and they weren’t controlling that they wanted to control. And then they said, well, we need to know who’s married, who’s not for the census and things like that. So it becomes a control because you can when you control when you know numbers like that, you can put taxes and things like that on and on.


    And you added another layer of control because the patriarch really wanted to make sure that women are also controlled. So the man in the house, the husband is in control of the wife. She’s part of the chattels and she is property and the children are property once married. In other words, technically, I am Mrs. Edwin Winnenden, not Mrs. Sanderlin. That’s how it went. Once you got married, you took your husband’s name as what’s her name? Downton Abbey.


    Lady says when you get married, you no longer have an opinion. Your husband’s opinion is your opinion. So. So that’s how you were. And if you brought assets with you from if your parents were rich and that thing on top of you, your assets became your husbands. And so, yeah, you’re right. So the state then had control over the husband and as far as property and taxes and all the rest of it was concerned, but then he had dominion over the wife and the children.


    But nowadays, women can turn around and say, well, I’m not happy with you if you don’t, so I can leave you and take off of everything you’ve got.


    You can also when you look at it, it’s just another aspect of the laws that makes it easier for a woman to can use as a leverage of control in the relationship, which is obviously not a good thing whether it is.


    And it’s and it’s also why women initiate more divorce because women are generally more unhappy in the relationship than the man. But also when you when once you’ve got the law involved, law works on a on a system of blame. Someone has to be to blame. So divorce, you have to prove blame apart from now that you’ve got two two year quickie divorce. But other than that, you have to prove blame. You have to prove adultery, you have to prove neglect or whatever it is or abandonment.


    If you have abandoned the marriage because you no longer live there, you marriage.


    So I’m not talking about the conventional legal marriage. I’m just talking about more of a marriage. And in the eyes of religion or.


    Yeah, no, I understand. I understand that. I understand like you’re looking for a commitment committee kind of thing, but I’m talking about in general relationships. So what do you have to do when you have a divorce is blame each other, which then causes more fights, which then makes insurance culture for cars and stuff isn’t everyone’s always.


    Always. There’s a lot on there, much like you did that he was in and then, oh, let’s just say it was them so that I don’t have to pay out my insurance. And you try to come up with a story and the law is not so well obviously. No.


    No fault divorce. No, I think it’s gone after two years.


    Yeah. Yeah, that’s a little bit of progress in the law, I think, with the majority, with the law, though, it seems to be like little bits of change and then the whole system’s usually still quite messed up.


    Yeah, but what what will happen is I think it’s a generational thing. And we are thinking that this is this has been going on for very long. But as Rob was saying, think of immediately after World War Two and going into the 50s and the 60s and here we are now, things have moved along quite rapidly when compared in the past where things would be going on for a century or two before you would see any real significant change. And that is because one religion is is in some places waning.


    And it’s more like, you know, in some of the Scandinavian countries, it’s more of a partnership that they look at. And, yes, they they get their civil partnerships and their marriages. Some marry in the church, but nonetheless, they view the marriage as a partnership, whereas in some societies, marriage has a lot more layers to it. And as far as children and relatives and property, and so no matter where you go, if you are part and parcel of that society, it is and also the stigma attached to divorce because that has had to be tackled.


    There was a time when it was so difficult to get a divorce. And if you are divorced, woman, you were almost an outcast.


    You know, something must have been wrong with you.


    Why your husband divorced you. So you are damaged goods, but now people will divorce and they will divorce again. And there are so many people who have had so many marriages. So I think over time we will see that it has been evolving. But it is not a it’s not that sharp change where you say pre this year it was this and after that it changed to this. I think we are what we are seeing. It is evolving and over right in front of us, it’s happening.


    Different types of relationships are evolving. And I’m not stuck on the one on and on. I call it relationships because there are some people who.


    Are as committed in their relationship as as what would be considered a marriage. You know, and if the law changes to accord the partners equal rights as well as a marriage, then the only difference is the commitment before before your God. I find. I don’t know if you agree. OK, I hear what you say, and if the laws were in line with what was right, then it’s just as equal even. But both marriages are equal.


    No, I’m saying that they would be equal, except with the exception that the traditional marriage is before God. Is before a God, whatever it is that you worship, and this partnership would be without that requirement, but the legal requirements or the legal benefits to both parties would be the same. So the legal right to the children, the property to whatever signing do not resuscitate or death, whatever it is, is the same.


    All of those things. He would be accorded the same right, because people are fighting for that, no. Yeah, you know, when you were talking about war funding, that when you think that what things have to go so far in one direction before the other. So take sort of feminism, for example, to the oppression of women that have for so long.


    But then on the other side, like, I think feminism is going so much, you know, the direction it’s going whenever you get a pressure group.


    So, for example, Meeta or Black Lives Matter, what happens is you get all this anger and you get people who are doing essentially the same thing that they were doing and people wanted to go in the other direction, polarized, positive discrimination.


    And all of these things sort of they were sort of more barbaric in the past.


    What marriage is or generally society was more about more barbaric.


    So what what are you saying in terms of marriage? That’s going to be the end of the spectrum. Do you think it’s going to swing to.


    I think it has swung. I think it’s people a lot. I think so.


    Now, people will also stuff that goes on, though.


    Yeah, that’s always going on. But it just wasn’t talked about. I think it went on a lot more in the past. But it’s not confined to marriage.


    It’s confined to relationships. It’s not common because domestic abuse, whether you’re married or you live in relationship, occurs hearings to why you think it’s going to end up all sort of to.


    Well, I think I think what happens now when you look at statistics, people get married later. So there’s less of a divorce rate, there’s less marriages, people get married later. So I think people are a bit more cautious about getting married. I think gradually what’s going to happen is people. I think what you what you’ve got now is a lot of people are lost in relationships, they’re fed up there swearing off relationships. I think there’s a lot of people that perpetually on dating apps because they’re scared of the next relationship or because they don’t want the pain.


    And so they’re looking for Short-Term solutions. They go off to find themselves.


    They go off on trips to find themselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


    And then I think what happens is eventually that’s not enough, because ultimately we still with evolutionary wired, that doesn’t change. We still want to pay a bomb. We still want all of those things. It’s just that we and this is what I was getting. I don’t know. The key thing is most people don’t believe and I don’t see how it can be. And the reason why people don’t have commitment and relationships is because they don’t believe it’s going to be better and they don’t believe it’s going to be better because they can’t see how they can make it better or suppressed and its flaws.


    And the other side where people don’t really want to invest in a relationship that’s scared to invest, they’re scared to invest because they’ve seen their parents, they’ve seen their relationships, and they don’t want to go for it again and they don’t see how it will be any better. And that’s why I’m talking about the biggest problem is that we don’t see what causes relationship problems. So this generalizations like people aren’t convinced anymore, people are just after sex, people are people, that’s difficult today, really down to trust and communication, generally speaking, if not educated.


    True, it is.


    And but underlying that is, how do you do that and how do you do? How do you do that is so when you talk about the mass media, I was joking about the Kardashians because that is where mass media is for a lot of people. Sorry, this is the archetype for a lot of people.


    Well, yes, it’s easy to watch Instagram and the dramatics of the Kardashians. It’s hard to sit and read us and actually look to the.


    Yeah, because that’s an easy distraction, it’s easy to look at things like that is hard to read a book or really actually change things or really look at what the real problems so people distract themselves. And that’s what social media does, is that it gives people a distraction from the problems that they’re facing rather than deal with the feeling.


    Let me just go on the phone and scroll for a bit.


    And so now what you’re getting is you’re getting a lot of attention and a lot of books and things on digital minimalism and managing yourself and digital addiction. So digital addiction is going to be a huge thing, I think. And then that will be a problem. And that will be so I think when I think when I was growing up in the 70s, the 80s, there was a lot of heroin addiction. I don’t think there is as much now because I think there was a lot of attention to it.


    And so I think you get you get a problem, it gets a lot of attention and eventually people work out past that and I think that’s how society evolves. He looks like he’s getting worse and sometimes it has to because people or is it just not you know, you’ve got films like Trainspotting and all the rest of it. And it was kind of like pushed to the forefront that isn’t really going away, or is it just that it’s not in our sight anymore?


    I’m sorry, what are you talking about? Like heroin addiction? I don’t know. I don’t know. But I know I’m not aware of it now. I used to be you don’t hear it. And I don’t really watch a lot of TV, but you don’t hear it in popular references. So I think probably less.


    I think there are other drugs and statistics, though, Rob, wherein I’m looking at young people. And there was one article I saw recently which is even laughing and saying that today’s teenagers are quite boring because they don’t drink, they’re not drinking and they’re not smoking and they’re not because they’re playing computer games. They’re all doing all these kinds of things and stuff. So they’re not spending their time getting wasted. But what this is really interesting. But what why are video games so addictive?


    Because they’re designed to be. But how was it allowed to get addicted?


    Adrenalin rush. It is an adrenaline rush attached to those games. But what’s what’s the what’s the rush? What is the thing that keeps them addicted? I don’t know, but they’re always conquering something, they’re always shooting up something, they’re killing they’re they’re powerful, they’re smart, they’re smart. The enemy is always a conquest.


    You can feel it because. Because it’s that progress. Video games to design, to be addictive by giving progress on the problem that we have in relationships and things. We don’t have any measurements. We don’t have any way of keeping progress. And so mastery is like you’re not going to see results, you’re going to feel failure. You’re going to go down, you’re going to do this. Whereas a video game is designed to be to adjust to the level so that you can constantly outmaneuver.


    It’s an illusion that they’re making progress. Yes, and also I know because I sit with my son and watch these things sometimes, but what a lot of the YouTube gamers do is that the sort of model for keeping kids hooked is to intensify the emotion because they get bored of it after a while and they become normal. It’s all chilled out and really sensible and like we’re going to build this little thing over here and that’s going to be good for this to get bored.


    So they keep knocking the intensity and keep intensifying the emotions more and more to keep them hooked so it can feel something because everyone’s just normal. And you said in the book that you talked about last week and good relationships and boring or perceived as boring.


    So, so but where does that go? Because where can you once you’ve once you’ve added all that emotion, how can you see that that’s an obsessive thing. You want the emotion, but how where can you go from there? And so that’s why that blows out and this is why I think like the Trump thing, because that’s what Trump did raise, raise, raise, raise rates, and eventually that’s unsustainable and it collapses. And so that’s why when it collapses, that’s when you have the evolution.


    Because like all those YouTube is, how can I get any more dramatic? How how can I? But you see, you need so that is addiction to video games and YouTube and things in addiction because they’re given his indictment bar, if you like, like the scenes like 15 seconds, like like I think Jay-Z is like the poster child. You’ve probably seen his videos, like most watched videos, but he’s the poster child for he’s got all these people like he actually says nothing of real substance.


    But it’s got he knows like you change your scene every 15 seconds, you change the dramatic and you play the emotions. So those things irk people. But ultimately, unless they keep upping the ante every week, it’s like soaps have to get more and more dramatic. Yep. And eventually there’s only so many public shootouts and only so many kidnappings and things that you can have smaller numbers still like this.


    So they’ve watched for the last how many years, how they relate to they relate to the characters. They have their favorites. And yeah. And it’s like your family, it has become a family member. I you know, and I don’t know that the arches and all of those I’ve never seen, so I can tell you, but they become part of the family and they identify with the stories that they want. I bet you it’s going to be so and so and so and this one is going to kill and so on.


    And I bet you that one is going to get married to so-and-so and that one is going to get divorced. So they are living it. And it’s it’s like you suspend your miserable life and you’re going to the exotic Make-Believe, world famous for having sexual discussions that are not actually advocating for or understand the common understanding or a common story of Siliciano. Do you don’t know, it’s kind of obviously that the conversation is really interesting and there’s loads of really good points and knowledge being shared for is kind of like we just kind of like it feels like there should be some common understanding, just something here and here in the group.


    Yeah. Yeah, I’m. Probably because there’s only so much you can go intellectually. So there has to be. You then have to live in. So there are only a few principles, is what I’m talking about, Mastery’s only a few things. It’s about like three or five fundamentals. And everything like I remember when I studied psychology, basically every every essay on every subject was nature versus nurture. It was whether it’s social construction, whether it’s behaviourist or whether it’s evolutionary or all of the different schools of thoughts.


    And so there is about all of them principles came into everything. And so, yes, we can like the first group that Iran ran for about eight months and my frustration was that didn’t change anything. Because and so then I brought in. Like, OK, what’s the one thing you’re going to do? And immediately when there was like an accountability. About half the group went and it was because people and then afterwards people spoke and it was actually with all the men and the women said, well, everyone’s talking a good game and everyone’s the same, but no one’s actually like doing anything, so.


    So, yes, I’m talking about it. Same as reading the book isn’t going to change anything. And that’s why that’s why I got to the relational Wall Street, AIG, because it has to be that practice that has to be something measurable that you. Focus on and change because you can talk. You just rationalize and you can talk, all people do. That’s why many people stay in therapy for years, because you end up doing it. You talk about your childhood and then you create more and more stories that may or may not bear any resemblance to what actually happened.


    But somewhere along the line, you have to act. But then I think, though, that we all have different experiences, we are on different trajectories and different elements of the conversations will resonate with each of us. And so there isn’t a single narrative that we could distill from the discussions, each discussion overall. Yes, I think that there is a thread that we could possibly see that collectively this is what is emanating from all of these discussions. But nonetheless, I think that there is value to what what we are doing, and maybe it it doesn’t it doesn’t manifest itself right away as we are going along.


    But the further along we go, I think as things become more concrete in our mind, that then I think the value will start to reveal itself to to to each of us, because this is not my area of expertise, by no means.


    And so it’s great to rub around because it’s exactly because all I can talk to is my my lived experience, nothing else.


    So I would like to wish him and this healing can’t happen at the terminologies end and I know how things are defined, etc. It’s just not talk to me about other things. So this for me is a learning experience. So I am not looking for a recipe for my life. What I’m looking for is insights into different things, some of which I may not even have considered because I didn’t know. OK, so in a sense, that’s enlightening for me, and if I have that information, then I can use that as part of my my analysis as I go along and I look at various aspects of what I want to do on me, because that’s how I am.


    I got lucky with my thoughts and I take myself to pieces.


    And then I will come to a decision by collecting information so that pieces of information and understanding and seeing how they connect, which for me. Yeah. Because Rob can’t solve my problems.


    I’m just saying I think if we’ve not got a lot of knowledge on something, I think it’s really good to have somebody that hasn’t. Yes. Not not for people.


    I think there is a lot that your calls were get in.


    Other people’s insight is also interesting because I’m not a man. So when I get a male perspective on something that I’m.


    That I probably never thought about. I had no inkling then it also helps me to look on the other side as best as I can and not just think that it’s just my opinion alone that they should consider mean because we tend to all. But this is how I feel and this is how it must be, because this is how I feel and in many instances, because we have absolutely no insight into the other side still. And if you ask directly, you may not get an answer.


    But in a forum like this. You’ll get you’ll get it tangentially, but it is still valuable, it’s very valuable.


    So these all the facts and when you get the facts, it helps. You saw it. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to. Yeah. So over time, I think it’s almost like a jigsaw puzzle and you start to pull the pieces together. So I think all in all, I don’t think anybody could expect a prescription. A recipe. Because it’s individual, it’s different for everybody, you know, different seasonings, different flavors, different things go forth for each of us.


    But I think but the the the set of ingredients that we are drawn from are the same. But we are putting together different recipes. And that’s that that’s that’s what I think. Why with a group. Can I’ll just pick up on a couple of things. I think some of it is is like you said, when you you learn when you’re emotionally ready or psychologically ready. So, for example, like, I can read any of the kind of books and because I have a frame of reference, they’re quite easy for me because I’ve always kind of read those kind of books.


    So and I’ve given a lot of time and attention to people and how people work. So that’s quite easy. So I can get like an idea and I sort of understand it without even reading the whole thing. But then so I was reading the business book recently and I said, this is it. This is like a system that I can use. And then after I read that four years ago and I just skipped over it. And so I’m I’m aware that in the areas that I need to grow in that some, it doesn’t happen until I’m ready, until I’ve I don’t know, whatever phase or whatever a process I think is partly down to feeling of self-worth and being open to that being in your life at that stage.


    I think we spoke a bit about sort of self limiting beliefs earlier, and I think it was a self limiting belief and we’re not aware of it at that point. We won’t let that information and we can’t learn from it until our self limiting belief is gone.


    Yeah, and that’s what I’m talking about, the medieval mentality. People don’t even believe it. And so they don’t even look for it. So and also, although we’re saying the same things, it’s because you don’t like if you read a book, you’ll maybe get free to free four or five days. But like, if this is someone’s life where they put 30 years into this, you know, like real deep, really deep ideas, like if you look at like loads of people say that five love languages has been critical for them from relationships, that’s really one idea.


    And. So I think the thing about that is this is such an easy book to read, such an easy idea to get, that it’s easy for someone to take, but there is so much more. But we don’t see it. And so, like, sometimes you need to read five different books on the same subject to to get the idea, or sometimes you need to be in the right frame of mind. And sometimes you can read the same book and you get different things from it because you’re in a different state of mind.


    So what my goals for the group, really what I’m looking to do is build a community. And because if there are people like, for example, you who’ve something through this and you’ve worked out some of this is where I work and my ideas. So this is where I work out, I’m thinking I self-test how I get different insights from different people, as you said, ideas and. So then I polisher and so then the polished version makes it easier.


    So we’re talking about how do people change? You get the early adopters. So everyone here is an early adopter because they’re on the leading edge of what are the ideas. The people who come behind aren’t going to invest as much time. So they need something more polished. And so they’ll pay money to get something that they can get quicker because the idea ideas that maybe take two or three months for someone to learn here can be refined and polished. So it’s easier.


    So it’s for there, but mainly to build a community so that one people see, other people have done it to that they like. So we also talked about the central narrative that essentially the only common belief system that we have to share is what was in last week, that we have control, that we find to be free for our own, to make our own recipe. So so that can all come from me, because it’s like I you know, if I was going to sell a recipe, then I think that’s what’s wrong with a lot of systems is it’s like I did this in, you know, I was poor, now I’m rich.


    I did this. Here’s what you need to do. And not everyone, folks, it’s like the cookie cutting recipe. So there needs to be different people. That needs to be diversity. There needs to be some people who are a little bit further along the path who can help others. So if we build a community and there is all this knowledge bank of diversity, different people have done it in different ways. That’s really. Well, I’m Mikoto, and then yeah, and then there’s a distillation of commonalities through all of that diversity, and I think that those those are the the takeaways from all of the discussions.


    Yes. So what I’m looking at doing now is going back through the mall and there’s like two, three hours, but to put on like one page, two pages so other people can get the main ideas digestible, easy to catch onto and quicker to go. Yeah, because, I mean, if you look at how much time we’ve we’ve invested in this and someone else can get the principals, but even when they get that principals, they’re still going to need like people aren’t of the same questions over and over again because everyone thinks my situation is different.


    And a lot of it is like me reading this book four years ago and then suddenly can go the way I do this. And it’s simply because I just wasn’t ready to hear it. I needed to dabble and hack and obsess and all those things in order to realize, okay, now you just need to do the fundamentals. Yeah, because to appreciate what you read, sorry. We need to fully appreciate what you read. It’s like reading a book before before you can actually comprehend.


    That book, because that has happened to me, there are a number of books that I read when I was about 12, 13 that I thought I understood, but I was really reading words. And when you read them as an adult, you say, oh, that’s what that is about, you know, Pride and Prejudice and all of those books. I mean, good God, I read them when I was too young. I think I didn’t get it reading them as adult as an adult.


    Now it’s like, OK, so you’re you’re right. You read and do intellectually, you you you you you understand and you digest it. But it doesn’t resonate until it’s in the proper context and something else falls into it falls into place when it falls into place with you, then anything else that comes that is relevant to it. Then you see the connection, which is probably why you saw it with the business. The business book that you were reading, and even now, now that we are shifting away from certain things like job descriptions and job titles and all of those things in the age of eight and stuff and the flattening of the work organization, you’re going to find that more and more of what you’re doing is becoming increasingly relevant because it’s the soft skills of people.


    It’s those qualities, leadership, empathy, all of those things, team building and so forth, that no people are looking for rather than the piece of paper. And and it’s it’s it’s what you do that then then comes into play.


    So what’s not really a marriage is more about relationships, isn’t it?


    Yeah, but I mean, actually, my goal is to have a solution for dating to which is like a system.


    So that goes from dating to the relationship, you know, on a plane you can about sort of these sort of ones that give you these tactics is I was thinking about that. And it is literally just it’s just like one manipulation after another. And then once you’re in the relationship, it’s just like what you got is no foundation that to build anything from. But that’s what people want to buy, which is like junk food is against the real thing.


    But so I want to build that system. But then I want to work with teams and use basically the same story I wanted to do four years after reading all of these books. It was like, I’ve read all of this now I need to put it into practice somewhere. And I didn’t get married along this trajectory. So, yeah, it’s good.


    It’s a little after I got married myself and still have to get over young people struggling to get married and Chavanel interest them. And my experience is to help them on their way and all the rest of it. So I really appreciate what you do it.


    And I have I think desperately. If there’s a market. If there’s a market. Scores of I used to work in high school and I wanted to do good. I couldn’t do it because I’m a man and it wouldn’t work. But the girls that were getting into abusive relationships without because they saw at home and they got boyfriends and they didn’t think there was a problem with that. And like I tried to get some of my colleagues to run like a group because I used to run groups, but I couldn’t.


    As a man, I don’t think I could do we like. Be relatable enough. I don’t think that’s a topic I could cover. It needed to come from a woman, but no one wanted to do it, but, yeah, there’s a desperate need. So I think that would be definitely something you could do. And I don’t think you necessarily have to be in a relationship or be married. The actual responsibility right now. You no, it’s just I mean, like, I’m at the point where my daughters have you’ve got the time and the energy and the space to do it.


    Yeah. Yeah. You have to you have to unmarry my mind. That’s what I did.


    Sasha, you wanted you are DeMaria and I want to unmarry because I have to have to stop thinking like a married person.


    I have to stop thinking like a married person to be healthy plants and have good relationships in general.


    Yeah. Yeah. Because you are conditioned, you know, no matter what you think, you once you are in a marriage, you are conditioned. After a while you behave in a certain way. You think because you have to your consideration is always for to you even just fiddle with the ring to me for a while. I just don’t have the ring anymore. But my ring never quite fit. So I was always fiddling with it.


    covid because I’ve called it.


    I’ve taken off my ring. Because of covid, I’ve taken off my ring because I know my right hand, but it’s a very it’s a broadband and so with covid bacteria underneath the baton, I took it off. But it’s the kind of thing where I was very conscious when I was designing the ring that I wanted a ring that I could wear after. It’s like I knew if this happens, I still want that ring and I do. But covid have taken it off.


    But yeah, every now and again I look and say, OK, no ring.


    You stayed in the relationship that you really didn’t want to stay in. It’s a very odd thing because we are friends in a sense. We get along and we would go on trips and travel around the world and think, what have you bought? But and we are very civil because even now, I mean, we don’t argue and we send each other text via WhatsApp, this cartoon and that whatever, whatever. But we don’t discuss anything else. We don’t talk.


    But I’m not angry. It’s just something that has it’s it’s done. It’s just over. That party’s over.


    But we broke even if the relationship’s the latter so much that I think that sort of things are great. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.


    Because you didn’t think that it was going to it would end the whole going to marriage. Not thinking is going to end really. But it’s it’s had a useful life and it’s it’s done. So I mean, I don’t hate him. I don’t think he hates me. We have a son that we both adore and, you know, we can talk about it and stuff, and I have no intentions of calling with him over over silver and crystal and all of those and furniture and all of that kind of stuff.


    You know, some people get into all. But this was the wedding present from so-and-so, so I must have it, you know, and I’d have half the cut and half the dog and all of that nonsense. I’m not hung up on that so much easier right now in that yeah, so I think I think we will we’ll be able to deal with all of that quite easily. My my my thinking is and I refuse to I’ve seen people who get into a funk about, oh, I’m such a failure because I feel that this.


    And I don’t think so, I, I just that I’ve never entertained that thought. Because I think really it takes two. And sometimes circumstances work in such a way that it’s better if you if you if you just acknowledge that it doesn’t fit the bill anymore. For either of you, Adam Fisher said that when she looked like older coaches, like coaches that were more hunter gatherer cultures, they always had the thing of about a third of marriages just didn’t work.


    But there was no shame in it. It was just they just don’t work is better. They move on and be happy. Whereas once the law and everything got involved, it became this pressure. Yeah, yeah, and I think it’s also part of all of your own growth. That you recognize more and more the myth when you’re young is, you know, the ideal situation is to be part of a part of this family structure with children and all the rest of it.


    They never tell you about when the child or the children grow up and leave home and you reunite as a couple that they might be with very little in common that will draw you together again.


    Or one person has grown in a totally different direction to talk to another and, you know, how do you go forward? And sometimes it’s just. It’s just better to to to to be friends and and just end that formal part of the relationship. But I think it takes it takes some.


    It takes a lot of thought and it takes a lot of not blame in casting blame, looking for fault in the other party to give yourself an excuse, acknowledging your role in it. And but also to me and my main thing is. The rest of my life, I would like it to be the best of my life because it’s Dickon. And what I need to do now is to make the necessary adjustments to enable me to to to to fulfill that that that part, I think I see what you say.


    And that’s a good strategy to have. I think there’s a part of it where you should just be able to sit with your emotions of it as well. And I don’t know why this I feel is to Janice. I think there’s the practical practical and it is the narrative and the emotional. Yeah. And so I think that’s what you’re saying. Sachar is like the narrative and the practical. Yeah, yeah.


    But you’re absolutely correct. So I think in the House shouldn’t ignore the heart on the house. Shouldn’t ignore that.


    Exactly. Exactly. But then but part of coming to the realization that this is the best way also involves that, because that is a critical component of trying to, as you say, use the term master to master of that you that you want to be going forward. It is the combination of both and in considering and considering making that move, you have to look at whether or not that part of it is being fulfilled and how you feel about it.


    And if it’s not being fulfilled, then that is that to me is why it is that you need to look at the other parts as well, because people look at money, for example, and security and use that as justification for staying and sacrificing the fulfillment of self and that self love that they need to have for themselves. And and I think it’s not easy. It is very difficult in certain respects to be on your own, but nonetheless. I think, yeah, but in a practical sense, it does I mean, for me, because I’ve been on my own for so long, it’s not new for somebody.


    If it was if I had been living for 34 years with with him in the same house, it would have been more difficult for me to separate myself. But because I’ve been here for 22 years, you know, it’s it’s like I’ve been single all the time. So it’s just my head that needed fixing. So. There you have it. Well, here’s the 20 21 I agree with you and all the best and such, I hope that my husband, number one around the corner.


    Yeah, I hope so. And we’re hoping for an invite. I think I think you turn up when you least expect it.


    So you’ll say, well, I’m so waiting.


    It’s just a matter of time.


    Yeah, just make sure that you don’t turn any offers out of sort of just out of hand and give it a shot first.


    It’s right there in front of you.


    So how do we if we didn’t close early and get ourselves for a good night’s sleep, did we were just going to drag Sasha into our late nights?


    Actually, I think this is like it was my laptop on like five years. It’s 11, 30.


    This is perfect for me. I think this will get me to sleep.


    So I’m like, okay, well, thanks a lot. Thank you. Have a good week. You too. OK, bye. Next week by.