The Hill I’m Willing To Die On

    Relationships often descend into pointless bickering.

    The hill you’ll die on is a way to clarify what’s worth fighting for and what is a pointless argument.

    Transcript

    [00:00]

    Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. Tonight, we’re talking about the Hill you’ll die on, and that probably sounds a little bit. It’s not very descriptive. Thing, but really what it’s about is. What? What are you really willing to fight about and what is a meaningless fight for you? So the saw her look at where did it where did it come from the Hill that you will die on?

    [00:49]

    And it seems to be seems to have come from 1969, in 1969 in the Vietnam War, it was a battle for a hill and. The Americans lost, they say, six hundred and thirty Marines or. What more infantry and Viet Nam say fifteen hundred. And essentially, they were fighting for a hill that had no strategic value. That had no real benefit, and they gave up on it when it got when it became hard to. To win, so it was Edward Kennedy who is a senator then who named the Hamburger Hill because basically the infantry men who were killed were basically treated like mincemeat.

    [01:44]

    And so the hill that dying is represents. Like, if you have to if you have to, like in the military, having a hill is an advantage because it’s hard to fight. And so to win, to win a hill means that it has to be something worth conquering. Now in relationships. All the fights that you’re going to have were fighting for. Or are they just something you’ve got in the pattern of squabbling about, are they mean meaningless battles?

    [02:28]

    And then. In life, there’s really. Fights that. The gain is not worth fighting. But there has to be something. That powers your life, something that’s important to you. Because if you don’t have the hill that you’re willing to die on. Then. You don’t really have something that gives you is going to give you a source of passion and enthusiasm. So the idea of the Hill that you go down is about having some sense of purpose and it’s also having some sense of identity about what your life’s about.

    [03:19]

    So these are the things that become our North Star. So. First, though, I’m curious because you were talking about what you are passionate about when you were young. So does anyone want to share what they want you to be because I didn’t hear anyone else’s. OK, and I got my sherry, so we were talking about so I really do need to also with job rules actually, but when I was really young, I liked I had the dream of traveling quite a lot.

    [03:51]

    So I wanted to see the world. And I was like because I felt like such a big world and I want to see it and get to know it. And I always felt the best way to meet other cultures and understand them. And then it kind of evolved. And I really started with journalism, but I always been passionate about animals, which is something I haven’t mentioned. And I did quite a few rescues when I was back home. So that lasted until I moved to the UK and only at the age of 15 I thought of becoming a social worker.

    [04:19]

    So I wanted to do something that was meaningful and help others. So yeah, I think that was that. And so far it remains like I still want to travel loads. I still love animals and I want to work will help as much as I can. And I still work in care in the health care sector, so. I’m still doing all of those things, so. Well, I wanted to be everything that I read as I was explaining to my group, so any book that I read that was really so I went from medicine to archeology to veterinary medicine to God, he knows anything.

    [05:08]

    And of course, it was a bit of a what you call it, a toss up things that girls are supposed to do versus things that girls weren’t supposed to do became part of the family thing, but that I ignored.

    [05:21]

    And so eventually I became a marine zoologist, then an aquaculture aquaculturist, growing fish. And now I do science and technology, so I’ve gone all the way around, so, yeah, so now I do a science and technology policy. So I look at strange and emerging technologies, robotics and A.I. and genetics and lovely, wonderful, futuristic things, which I absolutely enjoy. Good. So what’s changed is the general question, what’s changed from childhood to now?

    [06:08]

    Reality. A healthy dose of reality. So is it reality or. So when I was young, I wanted to be a professional footballer, you know, like lots of kids, then somewhere along the lines I realized, one, that maybe I didn’t have the skill. And to do more than that, I wasn’t prepared to work for. But then also the other things coming to your life, so there are competing forces that tend to moderate or modulate whatever the word is, moderate your your passions.

    [06:56]

    You know, some of your passions, because they start to compete for time and attention and also passions to. OK, um. OK. So one of the questions not to discuss now, but for later. Is the things that moderate and the things they stopped and the things that changed all by. Real. Or are there things that we put in? So. Is it really reality?

    [07:53]

    Sorry, can you repeat the things again, the things that the things that stopped us, were they really barriers? Or were they challenges that we weren’t even prepared to to work enough for or we give up on our dreams because they became challenged? I think in some respects it was more of a compromise. Some things are based on compromise, but I also think that there are some things that you can’t control. For example, competition in the workplace or in education, you may wish to do something a particular course, but you can’t do it because the competition is so great, that’s out of your control.

    [08:51]

    Well, that moderate that changes, that’s the bit that’s the problem I’m thinking about. Right. So the competition. Means it became it became harder, right, but someone has to win, and if it’s really your passion and if you went all out and really committed to it. It depends on the stage of life that you’re at, because when you’re at home with your parents, the conditions that you live in, in other words, with your parents, for example, if it’s a very competitive thing that you want to do and see your parents can’t afford it or they can’t afford extra tuition to enable you to compete, then then that’s not something that you can control.

    [09:52]

    It’s it’s a reality which Templar’s which has to temper your behavior or your your ability to realize your passion. And then you have you have more choices to make in terms of whether you really want to do it and you can afford or you make the sacrifice in terms of. You know, time and money, yeah. Thanks for that opportunity, is that as well and what you say about sacrificing sort of things to do the yeah, I want to get is, is that.

    [10:38]

    When we believe the reality more so, there are really always examples like the pursuit of happiness in that film, where Will Will Smith is now, where he finds all the odds, spaceplane, true story. And you always hear like Olympians who’ve had every hardship and yet they found a way and I kept going. Is it just that we start to believe reality more than the opportunity? Is it what sorry, is it that so it seems so hard to achieve and so we can rationalize that by saying, you know, it would take too much, there’s too much competition is is I need to have motivation, all of those things.

    [11:37]

    But the one like the one percent or the one person that’s really dedicated. I mean, when you if you think about.

    [11:49]

    Someone like I mean, I don’t know his story, but Michael Spinks or someone like that who’s so committed, I think Lewis Hamilton has a similar story. I think he. His father, his father worked three jobs to raise. And I’m trying to think of other people like that, but there are people that despite every you know, they should have just listened and should have given up by all rational reason, but they still found a way.

    [12:27]

    Anyway, to start off, I just want to try we’ll try something different, but before you go, Rob, there is another side to that in that haven’t missed out on a particular path that you really desire. You embark on. You have to embark on another journey, so to speak. I hate that word. But for what it’s worth and in some instances, there are people who have found greater fulfillment than the original passion that they thought that they could not live without, because that happened to a friend of mine who in my class at high school A-levels, he failed all of his day lives that we did because he wanted to do sciences.

    [13:18]

    He wanted to be a doctor. But he was very he was very he was a very committed Christian. And even at high school, he had started preaching at church. And on the failure of the A-levels, he decided that he was going to go into the seminary to get his education and he rose to become the second highest in his denomination in the church eventually. And became a principal of the seminary that he went to. Whereas if he had chosen to send his senses, he would have been mediocre at best, probably.

    [13:54]

    Yeah, yeah, that that’s really what I had not excited or waiting for in that way. But, yeah, it’s really about is it sometimes is the right thing to give up and to try something else, because sometimes things that we have an interest in or a passion for are only to lead us to something else. But sometimes we give up on the thing, and I don’t think there’s only one thing like he’s not a. It’s not something that if we miss that, then we always miss the boat.

    [14:30]

    But I think the key distinction is, are we given up for practical reasons because we think it’s too difficult or are we giving up because it’s a real change of passion? Right. So we’re just going to try something else to start with, everyone sitting comfortably. So and if you want to put the camera off for this, fine. So maybe you should just sit relaxed and. Focus on your breath so you can breathe in for inches for four.

    [15:16]

    Come out through the mouth, right? Rainfall. Outfight. Enfold. Outside. Now, imagine that your life is like a train line. Lie down on the floor. And imagine that you could float up. So you could see the whole line from beginning to end. From where you are. And imagine that you’re looking where you are now. Looking down at you, that’s down in the line. And you can see from where you are in certain things, so relationships, certain roles that you have to play certain ideas and beliefs and keeping your chin down.

    [16:18]

    Even you limited stock. And from where you are, just see if you can see which ones those are. And then. Look and see the ideas and the opportunities and the relationships and the roles that. Are about. That could energize you and lift you up. Which video of which could. And then when you when you’ve looked at that and when you’re ready. Just float to the end of the line. And then look down and think about.

    [17:09]

    When your life reaches the end, what are the things that will really matter to you? What will you really care about? And then as you float back. Think about which of the things that holding you back. Will impact on that. And which of the opportunities are there things that. Could help you rise higher. Open sea, see? And then when you’re ready to fly back to new. OK, if everyone’s ready, I’m going to go into two breakout rooms.

    [18:14]

    And. Just to talk about. What do you think is holding you back now, what is going to matter and what opportunities are there for? Your muted we can join, you’re going to we’re discussing. We can break up, break record. OK, so yeah, I’m going to you’re going to get a link when they when it says it’s going to close. Just carry on your conversation. It’s just like a one minute warning. Welcome back.

    [18:59]

    So we were talking in the breakout rooms and. All of life, how we experience it is is about the reality that we see. And the meaning that we make between that and all of that is a story. Everything that we perceive. Like the temperature, like when we see someone doing something, how we are, all of that is all of perception. Is. Factual, but we can’t operate on facts, and so we have to make those facts into some kind of story.

    [19:42]

    And the story that we tell determines our experience to the story that we tell is the difference between giving up or being. Lewis Hamilton or someone who’s fought for every. Obstacle, I’m thinking when I’m talking about them and come to mind, Frederick. I can’t I can’t remember his name, but it was a famous slave, and so basically his story was that he was born.

    [20:18]

    Illegitimate son of a slave. She’d been ripped off by the master. So he was banished to another plantation. And so he’s someone that really should have had no. No chance of ever achieving anything but just through circumstance that the plantation he was on had like a Connelly, the wife of the master was quite kindly and taught him how to read. Which was actually against the rules, and so he was later he told others, and so he was banished for for doing that because they weren’t allowed to read.

    [21:07]

    And. He waited years and eventually was able to find to escape, and he escaped and one day he was like this group took him in to look after him. I think in New York, and they put on talks and gatherings. And one day you stood up and talked and he just had a talent for telling stories. And so anyway, this was hardest that he became ultimately he became he one of the president’s advisers and campaigned for the abolition of slavery.

    [21:51]

    I don’t know if anyone knows. Historian Frederick Douglass, Frederick Douglass as the one you know, the one that Trump said he knew that he’s a good guy to lie, wasn’t it?

    [22:09]

    But such an inspiring story. And so there’s and it’s like Victor Frankl in man’s search for meaning, talks about in the concentration camps, how some people were crying. Some people were mean, some people were happy. Some people were sad. They all depended on the story, in his words, the meaning that we might have of the circumstance.

    [22:36]

    So. Really? What’s what what really matters to us is the story that we tell and there’s a story that will make us miserable is a story that will lead to failure, is a story that will make us give up. There’s a story that will make us better. If you look at things like the red pill theory and there’s a feminist equivalent, I can’t remember the name of it, but all these kind of manganaro my. And all of these are stories that people have made of reality as they see them.

    [23:16]

    Which have led them to be bitter, which has led them to be isolated and cut themselves off. And then there’s other people who through every kind of hardship for every kind of. But. Everywhere where life told them that they couldn’t do it. They still kept believing, they still kept trying and eventually. Found success. And so the difference is all about the stories. So. OK, so we got a small group tonight so we can either stay here and talk about stories together.

    [24:04]

    Or go into a more intimate breakouts where you can talk. More like one to one, I’d like to hear other people’s stories. Yep, it’s decided, OK, right, so erm what we’ve done today already in the conversations you’ve had. Have there been? Have you had any insights of the stories that you have been telling yourself, the story that you are telling yourself, and how that will change how you feel and how you act? Now, I was saying I had a succession of failures or setbacks and a certain point after initially being optimistic, I just gave up.

    [24:59]

    And I can see now that I have self limiting beliefs. But I was questioning how how do we overcome those self limiting beliefs? Well, I think, first of all, it’s it’s recognising it’s a story. But all of life is a story like every religion is a story, and so different religions have different stories, different people believe, and we kind of vote for the story that we want. And a story can be true or a story can be a story, but we don’t know until we have evidence.

    [25:42]

    So. When you look at the point you gave up, it was because you didn’t because you lost faith in your story. Like the story that. Would give you hope and enthusiasm. So. I’m guessing that was because the evidence that you had. Plus. The doubts that you had yourself about your ability to to meet them. Led to. You given up. Would that be accurate? Yeah. So what is. So it’s in that in that circumstance is too big a jump to go from like.

    [26:40]

    I can’t do it to you. I’m going to direct. But what is the story that you could believe? I believe it’s possible. So it’s possible for someone else. Yeah. Do you believe that you have the ability to develop the skills, develop the capabilities to be that person? So I think the thing is that Blayse, most of us do what’s easy. I don’t mean like consciously choose, but it’s much easier to have the habit that you’ve already had if you’ve grown up and your parents have told you you or your brother or sister is better than you, look how good they are, look like you that come up to say some people can.

    [27:35]

    It can mean. People have like this burning desire to prove themselves. And always feel the need to achieve more and more, but to prove that parents wrong or it can be the story of. Like, yeah, I’m not good enough, I never was good enough, I was never that good, so I’ll give up. So I think it’s it’s just being aware of what story is driving you. So. It’s. When when those beliefs come up, it is about being aware of it.

    [28:23]

    And then, OK, this is so those we believe it because it’s it’s easy to believe and it’s easy to believe because even we’ve been told we’re lot or we believe ourselves. And if we believe ourselves, it’s because of the story. And I suppose we have to challenge those beliefs as well. Yeah, so I think what we have to do with the story is we have to separate the story that’s objective. So by objective, I mean this fact, we can see it’s provable.

    [29:02]

    And then the rest is anything that is improvable is subjective. And subjectivist is just the preference. Yeah, and when you were saying about evidence, I mean, we can look for counter evidence that instead of arguing for limitations, that supports the possibility that we can do it as well.

    [29:27]

    So say, for example, in that one, um, have you ever had a growth mindset? So, Carol, Dweck’s work on six months versus growth mindset means that what they found was that people with a fixed mindset believed that. You were ever born able to be good at something and you could do it or you or you want to do part of it was to do with how how you’re raised by children that are prized for like how you’re so good.

    [30:05]

    And they say, oh, you’re good at this when they failed. So they developed the fixed mindset because they believed that they would just naturally good at something, and when they failed at something, they thought, oh, I just can’t do that. And so they would give up various people, children who were praised for the effort they put in. Believe that they have what they call a growth mindset, where they believe that they could change, they could learn skills, and so they when they face challenges, they continued because they believed that they could change it.

    [30:43]

    A powerful he actually is is the mindset that with the effort and the opportunity and the hard work, we can learn to do something that’s really key.

    [30:56]

    So do you do you feel like from that you can. Why change that story and. Yeah, I think they’re coming at it from the growth mindset, a sort of framework and belief that I can learn so that I can challenge stories that I’ve had that have held me back and accumulate evidence that supports that I can learn and that it’s possible when I move forward from there. Hmm.

    [31:27]

    I think even even science is your story, because science comes from a particular viewpoint. And so. In in any like if you look at the research, there’s always a for and against, and so you can still believe whatever you choose to believe because. Most fields of science, you have people for and against, and so ultimately, whatever we believe is a choice anyway. Does anyone else want to talk about a story or a story that helps or hinders?

    [32:12]

    If I may, again, I’m not on the same type. I’m Alex. So it just what you said all about kind of growth mindset, this fixed mindsets, sort of it struck a nerve with me. I feel like I I certainly grew up with kind of ideas of what I was good at, which I think kind of I’ve been I’ve been blessed with the things I can do. But, you know, for instance, I believed right up until the mid 20s that I just wasn’t any good at any sport of any description or any kind of any kind of physical activity.

    [32:56]

    And. And I feel like it was just kind of something where I always just believed in myself, that this is something that I’m not good at. And and the thing the thing that became interesting for me was I started to. So I started to do a bit of a few different things. I started playing football with my friends where I’m from, a reasonably, reasonably regular swimmer now, normally not locked down. And and the thing that changed was that or I suppose what you’re trying to say, the story that I wrote for myself was that I I kind of changed what I was looking to get out of it.

    [33:39]

    I guess it stopped being about. Well, you can I can I shoot and score a goal from the halfway line? I scored a goal in my first two years of playing with work. I frankly wasn’t the point. I swim 100 meters under 90 seconds. It doesn’t matter. Like I’m not I’m not there to be better than anybody else. If I come away from that feeling like I’ve enjoyed it and I’ve had a good time then that actually I.

    [34:09]

    My previous kind of mindset about how I kind of interpreted it and what I was looking for was just completely. Completely orthogonal to to what my actual enjoyment would be and and yeah, so I mean, I still I’m still never going to be an Olympic sports person. And, you know, frankly, I don’t think I know was going to be, but. But it’s sort of exactly it sort of I sort of feel silly now looking back and thinking, well, you know, what was I hoping to get out of this?

    [34:45]

    Did I need to be any good at it to get something out of it? And I guess, you know, my only regret is kind of not starting on that journey sooner and maybe getting involved in some more stuff earlier at university, maybe. Yeah.

    [35:06]

    Can I ask what prompted you to have such a shift in how you saw yourself?

    [35:13]

    I think honestly what it was so so full disclosure, when I was at school, I was picked last for every single sports team ever and it sort of became a running joke. And then when I started working the company that I still work for, where a bunch of software I.T. nerds, you know, while I was there with a bunch of other people, had all been picked last for every sports team I. And so when we when we first went to the local football pitch and I’d just like to go and have a kick around the classmates, that was probably only one person there who could actually do any kind of foot eye coordination at all.

    [35:58]

    So, you know, I kind of I, I guess you could say I kind of have it to that really that I kind of reevaluated and looked and looked at myself and and kind of. Yeah, I think I think it was that I don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s a mental jump would have made on my own. Actually, you know, I object to the fact that there were other like minded people that who kind of showed me that you could you could do something and get a huge amount out of it without necessarily being any good.

    [36:29]

    I’m still to this day, I don’t understand how I’m so bad, but I enjoy it.

    [36:36]

    It sounds like you’re saying you could see the possibility for yourself by seeing it in the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. As a mirror, as it were. I think so. And the same goes for other things as well. You know, I enjoy running now as well. And that’s not something that I again, I took from from colleagues who kind of gave me the push and said, well, why don’t you try this? It doesn’t matter if you’re you know, it doesn’t matter if you run the show because I am.

    [37:03]

    So, yeah, and I think you’re absolutely right. I think we have to evolve from conditioning of self when from when we are small, wherein we are expected to do things to earn the praise of others. So the pleasure that we learn is that pleasure comes to us when we please others when we pass our exams. And we do well when we come first in the race, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I think I suspect what you have done is you have learned that the that the pleasure is actually derived from within self rather than external praise from others.

    [37:45]

    Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with that. It happens to all of us, I think. And maybe subconsciously as we get older, we and maybe loosen our ties with those who we aimed to please so much. We give ourselves some room for self actualization. And in accepting that something actually pleases us, it doesn’t have to it doesn’t have to meet with anybody else’s expectations, but it gives us genuine pleasure. We can actually have room to acknowledge that, I think.

    [38:23]

    Yeah, no, I totally agree. I remember being at school and, oh, my goodness gracious, if, you know, my grandfather would line us up all the grandchildren and if you didn’t come in the first five in your class. Well, good grief. You suffered. You were you are just humiliated. It was not a nice it was not nice and. And one or two of us suffered from it because it puts you down. You have to be really strong to to to be able to.

    [38:58]

    To get through that, but I have a positive story, which I think has helped me from I was probably about four, I was too young to go to school, but I was bored. So in the village where I grew up as an infant school, which was the home of my son, my mother’s cousin, all the other some whatever.

    [39:28]

    And so I was allowed to go to the school and one of the 10 percent I’m left handed.

    [39:35]

    So you go. And the first thing that some teacher wants to do is you need to conform and write. You’re going to be taught to write to the left hand. Well, my mother all four foot ten of her just and she was called in those days, you know, people. Yeah. You be called Miss Mrs. So-and-so. Miss Beryl came, which is my mother came and let them know in no uncertain terms that I am not to be troubled.

    [40:09]

    I am left handed and I will write with and learn to write with my left hand. And until now, I think that has resonated with me in that I do not need to conform and I can stand up and I will be myself and I will not take rubbish. I will speak out so that I think that this. Yes, Rob.

    [40:48]

    So I think I think that is probably a good point in terms of about that we should really just do things just for enjoyment, because, you know, when I look at so I had a completely different story in that I was naturally really good at football. And so I was like picking the team. I was one of the captains. I said like primary school. And we had to like our college football team was the best. There is the best time I played football.

    [41:26]

    And like, we we won in double four years in Iraq. And so but for me, it was like I was really lazy. I was like, just give me the ball. And to tackle anyone, not to run around, just give me the ball. And so then when I got to high school, it became more about the ones who were going to work. And and so I got left out of the team and I didn’t make the team.

    [41:55]

    And I just saw that given that I’m still the I’m going to give up. And I didn’t play football again until college and I just played a little bit in college, I never really played because. Yeah, just really because I didn’t get picked for the team. And so, again, I made it about and I suppose in that sense I gave up because. Because I was scared of failing, I didn’t want to be seen to fail against.

    [42:33]

    I think this affects us in life is like we don’t we don’t go for the jobs we want because we’re scared of being seen to fail. We don’t go we don’t have the relationships we want because we’re scared to ask people. And really, all of that is a story. And it’s like it’s like it’s come out that. And for example, one of the other things that came to mind was, was Malcolm Gladwell Outliers. I don’t know if everyone’s read that.

    [43:10]

    We’re really we used to believe in the theory that some people were great. And this is why rock stars, film stars get asked for their philosophical and political opinions that they have no obligation for, because we think if someone’s great one thing, the great in every field and they can be and then we get disappointed when they say, yeah, that he was going to to do. But Malcolm Gladwell really popularized the 10000 hours theory of practice, an opportunity like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and all of those had specific opportunity, specific time and specific skills.

    [44:04]

    So, for example, like. I think I was good at football when I was young, because I played very young and because I played very young by my brother, I would never do, because he never he never he had no interest in it. And so then at the time. When people do start playing more competitively, he wasn’t very good. So if I’m not going to do that and I think a lot of people had that same experience just because it wasn’t something they were interested in, they never did it the first time.

    [44:38]

    They tried it against others. I mean, Malcolm Gladwell talks about most tennis players, hockey or hockey players tend to be the ones who are born in about September to December because they’re almost a year older. So an age of 11 or 12 makes a huge difference because the bigger that had a little bit longer than the ones you get there, the ones you get, all the extra training. And so, like three years later, there’s so much better than the other the other people.

    [45:14]

    To make sense of this leads to a question of. What did you do, like so many relationship dynamics are about when we’re born? I think our parents look at us and we adjust, especially with the first child. It’s like this magical being. And everything you do is the first time they’ve ever seen a baby do that. And you can see, like your first child, you’ve got loads of pictures of your second child. It’s like, where were the babies, where everything is.

    [45:47]

    It may well, we were too busy chasing this one. We figured you were the second one, you know. So I think there’s that adulation and we look at I think we’re all always trying to get that back. And by the time we’re free or we’re five, we just keeps doing things wrong. And they’re like, oh, something like this. And then there’s this, like, control of you must be this, must be this. And I think a lot of us are trying to get the love and the adulation that we can get.

    [46:23]

    And also parents are people and people are busy. People are preoccupied. People are dealing with their own stuff. And so often they’re not. We’re not the parents aren’t the best to their children, so. When you look back, did you feel the need to prove something to someone? And did that affect your. Like what you did, like, did you try to do something to please someone, did you try to or not do something because it would displease them?

    [47:04]

    I needed to escape. I was I was a trophy daughter, so I was to be kept in cotton wool. Until the perfect husband came along who met all the right criteria, this rebel girl didn’t meet any of them. I just had to escape. So that that that can also be suffocating. Because things that you would like to do, you’re not supposed to do, I can’t ride a bicycle because young ladies weren’t supposed to ride a bicycle because you’re going to Graziani and you’re going to break this and you’re going to break your teeth and you’re going to do whatever or whatever.

    [47:47]

    So after the tricycle went, no, you can’t get on a bicycle. For example, it’s the cotton wool thing that can also restrict what you do. And it to the point of, oh, you can’t talk to that person because they’re not good enough, you can’t talk to those people, you can’t be with these people, you can’t be friends with X and Y. So control and I think may be my ultimate. What kept me going every day was just how to escape.

    [48:24]

    So going to high school, boarding school away from home was perfect. But I graduated when end of term came because I’m going back into this wretched cage. So I read, for example, I read out all of my junior library. By the time I was 12, I was reading adult books because I was totally bored. And that in itself can restrict a person’s development. Yeah, and I’ve heard of people as well because their home life wasn’t happy, they just needed to get there, needs to escape.

    [49:06]

    And just find the first person who seems opposite and sometimes you can pick completely the opposite person because you think he’s going to be different and then you just walk into like a different fire out of the frying pan into the fire.

    [49:25]

    Well, my situation is that when you’ve got nine, nine, nine females and one male, there was one uncle, eight aunts and my mother because my grandfather had eight girls before he had a boy and he had to have a boy. So it’s all females and they get married and they have children. Then it’s a hell of a competition. Who has the best looking? Who’s got the brightest, who’s got the this bad, blah, blah, blah.

    [49:55]

    And it’s just all this one. And if if you if you do something odd, it’s the talk. It’s in those days before telephones are really common in Jamaica, the letter writing would be of such anything that you did and then it would be a family discussion. So you felt pressure from every every angle of your life was an open book for discussion at every family gathering. And those of us who didn’t perform as well as the others would be embarrassed.

    [50:29]

    And that humiliation can go with you for the rest of your life. It defines you. And so you have to make up your mind from early whether or not you are going to succumb to it or you’re going to break free. I’m Heidi, and I’m the rebel in the family, so I broke free. I did everything that’s not supposed to, even though I’m still I’m still still stuck in my 90, 90 year old uncle. He’s like my child.

    [51:10]

    So what are you going to do?

    [51:13]

    Because that’s the only way to survive. I find if you conform, then you’ll be buried.

    [51:20]

    Did you find that statue or did you find that made you veer off too far in the other direction?

    [51:25]

    No, I think it has spurred me to be who I am in terms of the things that I have done. For example, when I left university, my mother said to me, I thought you were coming back home to live and you would get a nice job. And she had this lovely dentist that she had earmarked as her future husband. Oh, you don’t know. And so I had to come home and I said, I’m not coming home.

    [51:52]

    No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So what are you going to do? I thought you would like to be in some office or the other. And I said, no, no, no, I’m going to go to work on a fish farm. Oh, heavens. Mud, dirt. You are going to get burned up in the sun. You’re not or are not all of those things.

    [52:10]

    And I just said, well, that’s what I want to do. And so I did.

    [52:16]

    And that became a source of pride eventually. All my daughter. Well, you know, she’s doing the usual thing. So never give up. Never give up. It could work. Just just go do it. Yeah. See, I think I think that’s the thing is. That people take school too early. So, for example. I mean, an example, if we were to go back to the simple example, if we take in school like I was playing football, Salix wasn’t.

    [52:57]

    But when we got back to being a bit older, I wasn’t playing it like at work because I was scared I wasn’t good enough, because I felt in that after thinking that you are over and then feeling realizing that, you know, where is that story? And he was playing and is I think the thing about. Why we give up and to go back to what that is, that is. Because we take school to early. And what like the Hill that you’re going to die on, the concept of that is it doesn’t matter if you fail or if you win, it’s about you have to do it because it’s it’s in you.

    [53:43]

    So I didn’t say this before, but I’m I’m thinking in terms of that, like everyone’s in Braveheart. Some say so, essentially, the story is a fictionalized story of William Wallace, and he has to, like his wife, gets killed and the English have conquered Scotland and he willingly gives up his life for what he believes. That’s the hero. He’s going to die for freedom. And then I’m thinking free hundreds. There are no free hundreds where they know there’s only three hundred of them to find a million Persians, ancient Greeks, but there that’s the hill they’re willing to die on for.

    [54:34]

    That’s what Sparta means.

    [54:38]

    Yes, it’s about.

    [54:41]

    Not taking school too early. So. Yes, so we were talking about not these pretty parents and not taking school too early. So is there anywhere where we feel. Like you’ve taken school too early. When you say take schools, you want to give them up because like I was having a setback and then. Giving up. Yes, so really like the change curve. It’s kind of like this big dip. And it’s when you start something off, you’re full of optimism and then you find like it’s just going to go straight down because you’re going to hear all the challenges.

    [55:37]

    And it’s going to go right down to the deep. Which is the lowest point. And that’s where most people are going to give up. But then once you’ve got through that and you’ve got through all that disheartened, then all the feelings of doubt and anxiety about it and you’re going to rise up and eventually you’re going to reach the point where you figure it all out. So anything significant is always going to be harder than you think. It’s going to be more challenges.

    [56:10]

    It’s going to be psychologically harder. And Diamonds talks about the final stages of of a relationship. He talks about most couples give up in stage three because that’s the date. That’s the bit where we’re like initially you have this excitement and you have this honeymoon stage and then you have like he’s a little bit less exciting. And then you have the drudgery of, like, getting to know each other and the differences. And the thing that you used to think was so endearing now becomes annoying.

    [56:46]

    You have the differences in money and sex and raising children and social socializing and said you have all your biggest problems. And what he says is the couples that really work for that are the couples that have that, like the companion that love. We see them now in their 80s and they’re still holding hands and still loving each other because they’ve got through that. Whereas most people typically get to that dip and they say, oh, this is too hard work and it’s because I took score too early, and I just not to say you should suffer in something that you don’t enjoy.

    [57:27]

    It’s knowing if. And if we talk about relationships, because it’s so what we gathered around who most people do that in dating, it gets hard. They go, oh, this is this is too hard. It doesn’t work as they give out. We’ve given up on online dating and they give up in lots of ways. That before. They really worked out. And it’s like if we’re going to look at something like relationships, I think when we talk about mastery and there’s only a few things you can master, the things that are perpetually in your life, things like health, relationships, you create money.

    [58:14]

    These are things that you have to master because otherwise they’re going to be a constant source of problems.

    [58:21]

    And so the question is. The relationship is this am I taking school too early or is this a relationship that has no better future? So. When you think of the things that are so the things that you’re really passionate about. Shouldn’t really matter. And like I said, I think it is we should take things for enjoyment if we’re doing them for enjoyment. That’s that’s why we’re doing them. Often we put we, particularly in the Western world, there’s so much pressure.

    [59:02]

    All this has to be productive. This has to be effective. This has to be efficient. And it is. And then we give up. And sometimes it’s just. Do something because we feel good, in my example, I could have played football and enjoyed football, but I gave up because I didn’t think I was good enough anymore. And where are you taking school too early? Where are you giving up? But I think once again, though, the external externality of having people’s opinions influencing how you feel and your subsequent decisions, I think that’s something that we all need to look at and understand and understand the role that it is playing in in what’s happening to us, because in many instances, the decisions that we make, it’s a combination of personal feeling and those around us, the opinions of those around us.

    [01:00:18]

    And also even when you talk about not being good enough, not being good enough for you, it’s the perception of the others and their opinion that is going why you think you’re not good enough. And so you change your behavior or you don’t do that particular thing because you think that either you’re going to be laughed at or you’re going to be near to the back of the pack. You never get chosen. And so you deprive yourself. Because of what others think and do, so I’m thinking that at the bottom of all of that is that we need to develop a sense of self built on resilience, a level of resilience that enables us to make those decisions without feeling crushed.

    [01:01:09]

    By external opinions, and so the decision is our decision. Based on our circumstances and based on what it is that we are deciding is the best for us because we don’t have to be number one, we don’t have to be the best. But if it gives us the best pleasure. Then there is nothing wrong in shooting, having that thing in your life. I mean, it’s perfect for you. It may not be for anybody else. I suppose it’s also akin to having people around who will always tell you, no, don’t do that, it’s not good for you, but they are doing it themselves.

    [01:01:59]

    Yeah, I think that’s very true, Nicole. The question was when the question was where has. They need to prove yourself to a parent and then the follow up question was, where are we taking school too early? So we’re judging on our results now, as opposed to enjoyment as opposed to the longer term. So, yeah. I think that’s very true. I think it is about our personal I think. Someone else’s opinion. We take their opinion, but in between their opinion and us, taking it is our story.

    [01:02:52]

    And I and, you know, we had a comment which was done in relationship, having a relationship, how we talked about it above the line. I think maybe the mastery is about when you’re above the line, you’re strong and you do. Like you, strong, you believe in yourself, but it’s those moments of weakness when we’re below the line where we don’t trust ourselves. So I’m part of that, I think comes from, you know, when you talked about humiliation and giving up, part of that is about a need to be special.

    [01:03:40]

    Is that we there is something. Where we all want to feel that we’re special and we want to like on Facebook and Instagram, I want to show how special we are and we want someone to see. And I think that comes into relationships as well. Is that what everyone’s looking for is someone who sees them as that special person that their parents once did? But shouldn’t that lead us to examining those who really matter to us, what is our audience?

    [01:04:18]

    Who are we trying to please appease it along with who really matters in our life?

    [01:04:27]

    And what if your parents never saw us special?

    [01:04:31]

    Exactly, is that does that define you because there are others who will find you special, so I just that if I didn’t find your special right from the very beginning, did they find you special? So I suppose there are some parents that don’t even when your first born.

    [01:04:54]

    Yes, I think so there’s probably something in there where you have that meeting to have that love and attention.

    [01:05:05]

    Yeah, that will be a survival film because obviously the newborn baby can’t survive without the attention. Yeah, I think. I think for someone who has never felt that. They’re starting at a disadvantage. Because they’re always going to have. I think there’s this certain. Means that we all have and what that means is you start in life is going to be hard. And for some people. That. So when you look at the most successful people. They usually.

    [01:05:58]

    Is usually a lack of balance. You know, when you look at some of the I don’t know, Steve Jobs is a Haverty, but I can’t remember his early life.

    [01:06:10]

    But when you look at how driven someone like that is and it’s usually driven from someone who needs to prove something. So. It’s usually someone who feels more fair than someone else. I think people who are really well balanced. Some sometimes are less ambitious. Because I think I can relate to some of that ambition comes from an unhealthy source.

    [01:06:46]

    I think something else. What was the point about being special by you saying that when we’re born as a baby, we weren’t, we should feel special to our parents and then we grow up and we look for somebody that. Likewise treats us as though were special and then had us a tiny few parents that didn’t think so.

    [01:07:08]

    So what I was saying was sometimes we give up because. This myth of being special. Is what drives us, so if we fail, if we reject it, it hurts our desire to be seen as special. And because of that, we give up. So we give up on things because there’s this. If we if we could just do and it’s because of I want to enjoy it, I’m doing this because I want to do it, other people think.

    [01:07:49]

    Life would be so much easier, but I think we have that fear of humiliation, fear of failure, fear of rejection, and most of that is about what we’re worried about, what other people are going to think of us. And that fear comes from the need to be special. And sometimes it’s like wanting to be special, like Donald Trump, if you look at Donald Trump like that, how typical was because he couldn’t countenance the possibility that he wasn’t special by everything.

    [01:08:26]

    I’m a supremely special man. I’m just wonderful with some of the biggest hotels, all of these things, because he needs to not even acknowledge that he lost because he couldn’t accept that he wasn’t special. But that all changed to please his father. Is he someone that hasn’t been loved by his past and he hasn’t felt loved and special? By his parents, he’s overcompensating. His father never showed love, his father. His father was a bully, his father and he tried his entire life, seems to have been based on trying to get the approval of his father.

    [01:09:12]

    So everything that he did was had to be the biggest, the best, whatever, and he learned from his father. It’s a classic case of of of hero worship. In all, it’s bad it’s bad outcomes.

    [01:09:30]

    I remember talking to someone once, and this was someone really successful who was by most accounts, he was managing director, chairman, and he was, of course, a big companies. And his. So when I met him, he was older, he was sort of retired, but you would just come in and work for when I had a problem and he was coming to grips with he’d been successful all his life and he was like, what for?

    [01:10:06]

    He said, I I’ve always been driven to prove to my dad. But Dad always said to me, do the best you can do. Your best is like, have I done my best? He said, because that was never that was never achievable. Because however, you’ve got there’s always a sense of wanting to do more. And I’m also like something else that comes to mind is, is if Roy Keane, now Roy Keane is like the most driven, competitive person.

    [01:10:40]

    And I remember reading an interview with him and his is all driven on fear. He was someone who didn’t make it until like he was only discovered, like he looked like he wasn’t going to be a professional footballer. He got a chance, a random chance. And he was so frightened that he didn’t really belong. Which caused this aggressiveness, which drove him. So, yeah, so. So I think we can all have different stories where we haven’t been loved when we’ve been shown this evidence.

    [01:11:25]

    So it can be hard to trust ourselves, but ultimately it’s about are we making our own story? Because if we’re not making our own story, we’re going to be off course in whichever direction because we’re going to be looking for someone else or we’re going to be trying to achieve something for someone else’s reasons. But isn’t it also about disconnecting almost like the umbilical cord, in a sense from the story that is the story of your parents and whoever it is, having the ability to separate?

    [01:12:11]

    Oneself, to some extent. From that from that past story, in other words, you have you have to have you have to have some some amount of separation that will enable you to even strike out and be brave enough to ta ta ta ta ta ta to do other things or to try other things or to even get the energy. But also, I think to enable you to look dispassionately on the situation, you have to remove yourself from those influences as well.

    [01:12:49]

    And for some people, that’s that’s hard because of their physical circumstances in some way. It’s hard if you’re if these people are in the same town as you or, you know, pretty close by and you’re wrapped up in their lives as well. There’s a question I’d like to ask you to everyone in regards to that is when is the point when you stop being a child and you stop being an adult in your own eyes and in everyone else besides.

    [01:13:33]

    I think when you live in a place yourself and you’re making decisions based on what you want for your life rather than what you believe, your parents or other people want someone when you become autonomous.

    [01:13:48]

    But what I mean is also when other people see you in that white.

    [01:13:58]

    Is. My sense on that would be it’s the point at which you. Is the point at which you stop. You stop trying to have all the answers will tell. I think. Because, you know, for me, I think when I was when I was a child and a young adolescent looking up and who I thought were adults who had already had everything worked out and, you know, and kind of knew everything, and and what I did and what I was actually seeing was just kind of the confluence of of somebody who who accepts that they don’t have all the answers and doesn’t need to have all the answers.

    [01:14:45]

    And so it was kind of counterintuitive for me because I think I spent a long time trying to trying to make sense of everything in my own head and feeling like I had to have everything worked out. And a point at which you accept that I haven’t got everything worked out. I’m never going to have everything worked out. And you are wiser than you were the previous day. But you you kind of you find a peace at that point, I think.

    [01:15:10]

    And and that changes that changes your outlook to other people. I I think a lot of people have never reached that, you know, we look at. Like the popularity of a lot of things on YouTube and Facebook, because people want someone to look up to. They want to say like this is this person has all the answers. But, yeah, I definitely I definitely think that is I think that’s the point of maturity. I just think the problem is a lot of people don’t reach it.

    [01:15:48]

    And your obviously your clients have reached that because I think most people I think I think I was older than you and I sort of let go of needing to feel like I had the answers or to talk show. So. What triggered me to ask that question was Joseph Campbell talked about one of the crises of our society, our culture is that we don’t have rites of passage. So all of the more ancient tribes, they would have, like 13 boys would be sent off to go and hunt.

    [01:16:34]

    And they have to kill a lion or they have to go in and have to go and kill as many slaves as I could. And all of these, like there is like Joseph Campbell talks about, like we’re a tribe where they grabbed a grab from the women and then taken off and the men got masked, like, terrify them and they scar them or whatever. But the point of it is that there’s a point where the ordeal makes the boy a man and a side boy because it typically was boiled over on some food for girls as well.

    [01:17:16]

    But it makes the boy a man. And then when they go back, often they’ve got something that signifies to everyone that they are an adult. And so in those cultures, people know where is he in our culture? Like when do you treat someone sometimes for something to be when they’re 18? Some people be then twenty one. And for some parents is never ends because we don’t have that separation.

    [01:17:45]

    But when I have a lot of people know that we are an adult, how how is that supposed to be integrated?

    [01:17:54]

    This is what Joseph Campbell is saying, that we don’t have a clear, clear point, what we know. So like if you are in a tribal society. Your boy with with like with women, until you go through this ordeal and when you come back, you’re a man like you if you’re so. Yeah, I understand that, so I mean, in modern society, how would we interpret or perceive that somebody is an adult is just based on our perception and it might be completely flawed, not what they might be over 18 or twenty five, but they might still be mentally emotionally immature.

    [01:18:33]

    Yeah, exactly. That was his point. His point was that we never knew that we grown up and other people never know. We don’t have the cue to know people. Some will treat you as an adult at 18. Someone will treat you as an adult when you’re 35. But that lack of clarity. Makes it harder for us because there’s no clear separation. Or it’s assumed that if you are married so you must be mature or you’re a parent.

    [01:19:07]

    So it will be you must be an adult, you know, which false concepts in themselves.

    [01:19:17]

    So usually, like. Concerning the call to say, letting go of trying to please the people and care for their perspective on my life, my way of being, that kind of thing, I think that yeah, I think this if I if I see that in know people, to me, I feel like they’ve introspected and they’re autonomous and they’ve reached. You know, a level of maturity, I guess, when they just don’t police themselves as such, not in a selfish way, but.

    [01:19:53]

    So OK, so general question, how many people do you know, like a genuinely. Like, I’m worried about people’s opinions could do things for the right reasons to be very few. I mean, when you look at like Facebook and Instagram, I basically driven on that need to prove to people I had no social media.

    [01:20:21]

    What does that mean about me then? I mean that a long time ago, because I don’t see the point.

    [01:20:29]

    So what does that say, I’m a grown up. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think.

    [01:20:40]

    I think we’re in a stage where it’s like you had smoking bad for you, fat, smoking, fat, sugar, lack of exercise, I think the next big thing is going to be on social media. Don’t forget drinking. Yes. I mean, drinking is a huge problem. And much of it is about people drink to feel comfortable because they’re not comfortable themselves. And I need that much courage to put on it.

    [01:21:20]

    But that’s what I call a crutch. And it’s also used for that, too, to give you a sense of it was something to hold on to knows now instead of cigarettes, you hold on to your smartphone. It’s something to do with your hands. It’s it makes you look sophisticated. It does all of those things. Again, it’s perception. Oh, yeah. The drug or whatever it is, the the exotic man with the whatever, you know, blah, blah, blah.

    [01:21:50]

    Now it’s the smartphone, you know, the drinking thing that relates to what you were saying about people wanting validation from other people. Because when you say people are comfortable to be themselves, so they drink. The reason they’re drinking softens the blow of possible rejection. Again, that ties into not feeling good enough and feeling that they need to seek validation.

    [01:22:16]

    Oh, dear, I have a big problem then, because I can’t drink much, but I get the feeling you don’t need validation from anyone.

    [01:22:31]

    Sandra Day O’Connor, that’s the way I could have a good time. No drinking. I don’t need to be drunk to do am on your team. I’m on your team. Definitely perfect. What a glass of wine I’ll be gone to.

    [01:22:56]

    But I can’t drink. I physically cannot drink. I cannot. I used to be able to but I can’t from I was twenty one, I had a glass of wine and I started to get what felt like electric currents running from my chest up into my arms through my neck.

    [01:23:16]

    And each time it’s like, like I’m getting an electric shock and the doctors just can’t give me an explanation. But it feels as though it’s running again along my nervous system, going up into my head. So I’ve been told maybe it could give me a heart attack or something. So don’t we don’t know what is going on, so just leave it alone and risk it. No, no, I don’t need to. I don’t need to.

    [01:23:51]

    I’m noisy enough and I carry on enough, I don’t need alcohol, I believe you me, man.

    [01:24:05]

    Nothing like that, I’m not the only one that’s told me that I’ll be the clown, I’ll put the fire to the Caribbean and you’ll see what we are all about. It’s just noise you don’t have to drink. Have a good time. Interesting to see how crazy you can get. So that’s interesting. Sandra, would you say there must be a different cultural story? In terms of what in terms of in the Caribbean being able to relax and enjoy themselves more.

    [01:24:45]

    Yeah, well, I think there are two things that, well, a number of things that go together and one is the having to make your own entertainment, but also trying to maintain family links. So the whole notion of people being very casual about meeting and that meeting is usually quite fun. You know, there is food. People will visit people without an appointment, if you know what I mean. If you are close friends and you’ll have games, you’ll have music.

    [01:25:28]

    You don’t necessarily have to have alcohol. It’s telling jokes, family stories, whatever it is, you have a good time. You in the coming of age five, a side football match, you know, just some of the fellows or a cricket team going on. The women will be doing all sorts of things and we have lots of parties.

    [01:25:51]

    Are you in the Caribbean? If I am in the Caribbean, yeah. No, I’m here in the UK.

    [01:25:59]

    I’m down south now. But as a result of that, I think also a lot of people lived in small communities in the old days. So you would know everybody, even though people were quite mobile and would move around a lot for work, etc. But as a result of that, lots of lots of things would happen.

    [01:26:30]

    And it happens here because we got a lot of what we do from here as well in terms of, you know, the Sunday afternoon cricket match on the green. We would have that, but then we would have food and music would come out and you would have a party and the party was such that you nobody was watching you. So you didn’t get self-conscious. I think that is a difference. So you dance, nobody’s watching you. So you dance together.

    [01:27:01]

    You have a good time. You know, you dance by yourself. Nobody cares. Can you dance? No, nobody cares. You are just having a good time.

    [01:27:13]

    So in terms of schools, is there like where schools can be very. I’m thinking like mean girls, that type of thing. So where there’s lots of bitchy comments and put downs, was is that different in the Caribbean?

    [01:27:32]

    You have bullying wherever you go. There’s always a mean set of girls. But at my school, for example, you had groups of friends, but you didn’t have the bullying that I I saw here when my son was at school.

    [01:27:50]

    It was strange to me because that kind of bullying I found was actually quite cruel in some instances. For example, at my school when I was very young, I was different in many respects, but because of how the village was set up, they didn’t trouble me. They couldn’t bother me because my family employed a lot of their parents, our brothers and sisters. So they would call me names. And because I am evidently mixed race, I would like if they really wanted to upset me, they would call me things that tell me that I’m corrupted.

    [01:28:42]

    So it’s name calling. In other words, am I mixed up, mixed up person? So I’m not one of them kind of thing. And that’s to make you feel bad. But I didn’t feel bad because I’m who I am. So you get that kind of of bullying and they laugh at they laugh at you if you are different, but nobody will beat you up. Nobody was going to be, you know, ganging up on you around the corner and hit you to the ground.

    [01:29:15]

    And, you know, all of the things that I hear and see that they’re doing with children here and especially girl gangs. No, no. It’s you that’s you you have on something that’s not fashionable, you know, that’s what just to happen, that’s mad in comparison to know or laugh at you and say you have to go to church.

    [01:29:42]

    You can’t go to a party. This is the kind of thing which is nothing, you know.

    [01:29:54]

    OK, that’s interesting. All right, so general question in terms of. The hill that you’re going to die on in terms of the passion for things that really matter to you. Are you clear on what that is, what those few things are? Yes. I have one thing I I don’t wish to have any regrets about not achieving the things that I really aspire to get done when I’m when I’m expiring and must have no regrets, it expires. I love the word expiring.

    [01:31:07]

    I as before. Yeah. So, yeah, like I think that I this I don’t want to have any regrets. Is that a universal thing, the wrong thing at all. And is there anything particularly that you think about. I mean, is that acrimonious relationships that I’d like to if if I can’t think of any that I would like resolved? And I’m talking important, really important relationships to have it resolved. I suppose. I suppose a corollary of not wanting to die with any regrets is is is kind of another way of saying you don’t you don’t want to feel you don’t want to feel like there have been opportunities that you should have taken that you didn’t, which is kind of where you where you started is on an hour or so back from.

    [01:32:25]

    And I think for me, that would come down to if I ever felt like. If I ever felt like I’d put my my day job before my passion, which I think call we got to talking about in our break room at one point, but know, I kind of have a I have a very organized separation of my day job is in order to pay the bills. And then at weekends and at night, I go out to buy music and and for the most part, those two are completely compatible.

    [01:32:59]

    So it kind of works. It works in harmony at a pun intended. And but yeah, I mean, you know, there might come a point in the coming months and years where, you know, there’s an opportunity to do something to go on tour. And and, you know, I think I kind of made the decision that if that day, if and when that day comes, you know, I will take a sabbatical from from work to to actually do that.

    [01:33:30]

    And so. Yeah, it’s kind of recognizing opportunities like that in situations like that, and you know that you’re going to do that the thing that you’re going to get to feel the passion for and that that actually actually matters the.

    [01:33:50]

    So so we might be having you on Spotify saying I’m on the radio, actually, but this is kind of something else.

    [01:33:59]

    Yeah, that is it’s it’s pretty small time. But I just I mean, once again, you know, it’s I, I was brought up kind of very nearly gave up playing music because I didn’t enjoy the competitive atmosphere that I was in. And I still vividly remember to this day being taken off to music festivals to play and absolutely hate it. I would be I’d be physically sick. I wouldn’t sleep. Yeah, I God, I was only 11 or 12 at the time.

    [01:34:37]

    You know, I just didn’t kind of I didn’t know to kind of find my own enjoyment in it, really. And I remember my dad in the car on the way back from one of these things turning to me and say, you really enjoy this, don’t you? And I saw it. And I remember sort of thinking at the time is, is this what this is? Is this is this enjoyment? Is this is this what it means to enjoy doing something?

    [01:34:59]

    And then the first time that I the first time that I played was with jazz musicians just at a jam session. And that was there was no competition. There was no there was no prize. The judges it was just you all had to you had to present your own music and and enjoy it and or maybe not maybe just to enjoy what other people have and, you know, and take, you know, take something from that. And and that’s that’s what I look for from the music.

    [01:35:30]

    I’m not looking to be to be famous. I’m not looking to make a career or even necessarily I just want to every time I get up on stage in front of whoever I like, big audience, the audience, whatever, I just want to enjoy playing the music with the people that I’m there with. Want to play piano mostly.

    [01:35:49]

    I have been singing in recent years as well, which again, this is very much a kind of amateur pursuit. But I love it. It’s it’s similar from jazz, jazz, pop, classical. And I’m trying to like how much jazz. Yeah, I guess you do like jazz on Spotify.

    [01:36:13]

    I am somewhere. I try not to turn this into a plug.

    [01:36:19]

    Oh, tell us tell us if we want to come down for the count is the is the group that I’m on. I’m on Spotify with you.

    [01:36:39]

    They were I today. I’m lucky actually because they’ve, they’ve kept me sane during locked out as well. We’ve been doing a kind of charity locked down videos and I know what is seen them all down is probably sick to death of the New Year as well. Yeah. Let us know if you play live somewhere.

    [01:37:01]

    Come. Thanks. So so yeah.

    [01:37:05]

    That’s actually a big note that you brought up music. That is actually a big regret in my life as my teacher, my music teacher, I was only one music student, but nonetheless I went to grade four theory and I was about to do my exam and my music teacher looked at me and said, this is most unusual.

    [01:37:30]

    You are excellent at theory, but you are no good at practicals.

    [01:37:37]

    So you should not because I wouldn’t practice. So I was I was excellent at the theory and she banned me to find it because I would not practice to do my practical exam and have regretted.

    [01:37:59]

    What instrument do you do, Sandra? Oh no, no, no do.

    [01:38:03]

    I was learning the piano when I was small. I was learning the organ and I was quite good at it. But once again, when negative people get it to you, if you’re not strong enough, you will see I am no good at this. And I was stop. I started learning it like. Four months, four months ago, five years ago, the board is here. I mean, I can you know, I can never too late.

    [01:38:31]

    That’s one of the things that I know I want to do it. I’m doing. It won’t become a professional, but I enjoy it.

    [01:38:37]

    So my music still had a role and I was not having it. So I just refused to practice. And but my theory, I was really unjudged. And she. He just said, no, I will not allow you. I think people who do that do humanity a disservice.

    [01:39:06]

    But I had in music like the first lesson of high school. You have you played the recorder?

    [01:39:15]

    I did say that. I did that. And the music teacher said he said, you’re not really cut out for performance for the rest of the next two years of my music. I was starting to copy out notes about composers of the battle.

    [01:39:34]

    But you hate it if nothing else does. Yeah, well, to be honest, I actually preferred that. And actually playing like my art teacher told me, my art was the worst he’d seen in 20 years of teaching.

    [01:39:49]

    But the achievement actually the strange kind of way that was probably the least creative artistic person that we’ve been through that.

    [01:39:58]

    So, you know, but that’s another disappointment. My choice was art or chemistry. I was good at both. So, you know, it’s on one art. I gave up the art for the chemistry of good.

    [01:40:12]

    No, it’s it’s terrible.

    [01:40:19]

    But I’ve got my paint brushes back, I’m going to start again paint and paint and canvas that I’m going to I’m going to do stuff image behind you. Yeah, yeah. I can paint strawberry here.

    [01:40:34]

    Yeah. I think on my hell I’ll be dancing. I want to make more connections, a bit more expression of freedom. That’s what for. So yeah. You guys bring the music. OK, that sounds like a deal. Yeah. Alex can bring the music will go to Sondra’s Hill up to my hill. Right. Yes. And no one will object to that. Good, good, good.

    [01:41:11]

    Jamaican food mom. OK, so one last question. Well, maybe too. So now so that’s the big picture of like what’s your life about now in terms of relationships? Do you think about the fights that you’ve had that were meaningless? And then the fights that you’ve had or maybe didn’t have, like you should have had. Can you see, like, so where is the line between something that’s worth fighting about and something that you only find about?

    [01:41:56]

    For a silly reason as destructive to this construct, and so this really plays into compromise, so. Compromise is negotiation when it’s about something that doesn’t really matter, when it’s about fundamentally changing who you are. It’s it’s about. Losing something. What should have a fight and you don’t. That’s what I said. So what are the things that you should fight for, but maybe you haven’t and then the things that you have. So how Martin talks about really most fights are about free things within a relationship, care and closeness of not feeling cared for, not feeling closeness, respect and recognition, because you don’t feel that you get the respect and the recognition that your full power and control.

    [01:42:59]

    And he says that basically all arguments about a toothbrush, about the clothes on the floor are really about those things. So often people squabble and I have no idea what they’re squabbling about, but really it’s about something that they’re standing up for. But they’re just picking up an argument and said that argument can’t be resolved because they’re not really fighting about what they’re really fighting about or they’re not really clear about what they find. That makes sense. So it’s really we have to know what is key to us to fight out.

    [01:43:39]

    And that’s really what ultimately, if you can have communication, that’s what actually becomes constructive because it becomes the deep layers of the onion and strengthens the relationship. And then what is worth fighting about? Because it really doesn’t matter how much we put these two into words like and I’m thinking about something within your relationship or relationship that is just in the beginning, I could communicate very well. What was not working and what I needed, and then it kinda muddled up.

    [01:44:22]

    And I kinda just found myself having fights that were not leading anywhere. So that’s when I think that I should draw the line and OK, this is not worth fighting for anymore. Because in the beginning, when the communication was still open and it was still sort of working, but in the end it didn’t really work because the person was not listening and nothing was happening after that would be just like that adjustment for a week and then it gets back to the same or worse.

    [01:44:50]

    So I think then it’s not worth the fight anymore. And I carried on. So that makes sense. I don’t know if I get it straightaway, but when you carried on with the fight. Yeah. Was it that you were really trying to get their attention to try and get to the real issue? Yeah, but without actually saying it. I think I did say, but then it just goes on a tangent and it just starts becomes a snowball, which everything just gets involved, because I think that the four points you mentioned were lacking.

    [01:45:26]

    And then it becomes a thing of power and control, like I need to take control of this and it is impossible. Yeah. Yeah, but what if you are fighting for something that you think you’re supposed to be fighting for without actually thinking it through, and it may be that you are conditioned to think that you should fight for this particular thing rather than you actually really wanting to fight for this thing. Yeah, well, that’s what we were told.

    [01:46:02]

    It was it last week. We did the week before the free rebellion, which is really the only thing that matters is no dogma. What you’ve been told is not ignorance. What you don’t or you’re not aware of or emotion is about what’s the thing that really matters. And so, yeah, that that’s where those things give you, of course, because someone’s told you that you should have this, then you end up fighting about this. But it’s not really your fight because it’s not really it’s not going to it’s not really.

    [01:46:35]

    That’s the idea of fighting for a hill that you don’t want to you don’t care about dying. It’s so you only fight about what’s essential.

    [01:46:47]

    I think in the end, those fights that it wasn’t that it wasn’t worth it. In the end, they ended up being worth it because I learned from it. So now I pick my fights better, I think so that’s OK. Of winning in the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yes. And sometimes you need the relationship on that. So you clearer and. Yes, we can learn from. But yeah, it’s what is the hill and what’s real and what’s not.

    [01:47:20]

    Hill doesn’t matter. What’s on the hill does. But if you are caught up in the moment, you are caught up with all the other things in life where you don’t you can’t you don’t have the luxury of stopping to analyze and being aware of what is important versus what is not really important.

    [01:47:51]

    In other words, you’re just going with the flow.

    [01:47:53]

    You can pick the wrong fights because. Because you’re not clear. Because you haven’t identified what is the Hill, you know, I really care about. And that can also break break a relationship that, in other words, the relationship could be broken for the wrong reasons. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, probably. 60 to 80 percent of couples really could stay together. It’s just lack of lack of awareness, because there’s a lack of clarity of. What they’re really fighting about, so, I mean, they.

    [01:48:46]

    I work sometimes as a mediator between two people, two groups that are fighting and. Really, all there is, is getting back to. So there’s the story of what they like, what they want. There’s one little except and it’s just like what you really need. And. It’s just getting clear on a story like the story we fight because of the story in our head and if that story so whenever we feel bad, it’s and we can’t change the circumstance.

    [01:49:28]

    The only other thing we can change is our story about this circumstance. So that’s a sign. So, you know, we did the emotion vs. logic, emotion. It tells you how things are going. Logic tells you what to do. And, yes, just mixing those up. But is it a fundamental issue that we all could probably learn to do better and one that results in many of these conflicts is that we really need to learn how to listen?

    [01:50:09]

    To ourselves is it sounds until an end to the other party, because in many instances we hear what we want to hear and not what is actually being said and we react to what we think we we heard she.

    [01:50:25]

    So you want to stay as well, because when you say people don’t know what they’re arguing about, is it because they’re not honest in the first place? So when they suppress everything, then it becomes an issue with something superficial blows up in their face. But they’re not being honest about what really matters because perhaps not saying what they really think or feel.

    [01:50:46]

    Yeah, I think they are, because we worry what people think of us and because we’re not honest to ourselves. So we don’t always know what. We just react and to to go back. So you say, yeah, I definitely think it’s a lack of honesty with not knowing the other person. That’s true.

    [01:51:11]

    How can we be more honest with ourselves that just start with acknowledging how we really feel and having the courage to to own how we feel rather than try to be what we think the other people might want for validation.

    [01:51:24]

    So, yes, I think the real issue is that we we’ve got like our conditioning of our society is that more is better. And so and this is perpetuated by the media because that’s what powers the economic power, economic engine. And so we the more money we make, the rich we become as an economy, the busier we become the people in the 60s and the 70s we’re talking about, we would only have to work and hours. And what would people do with all the leisure?

    [01:52:02]

    But when you look at work now, we’re doing more. Than our parents did. We like the jobs have been merged so that one person is doing what free people used to do, an economically like our output per hour is so much more, and yet no one feels that much richer. So when you look at the standard, our standard of living, our standard of living is completely like when you take nineteen hundred and now we’re completely out of line, like the early 20th century, people were people were like their survival wasn’t certain if there were people who still didn’t make it, who couldn’t survive because they didn’t have enough money.

    [01:53:01]

    So the reason why I’m saying that the point to that is that there’s this driven thing of being more effective, more efficient, doing more, achieving more. And so that’s like a. Economic treadmill, and because of that, no one has the time to stop and think about what they’re really doing because the people mindlessly run for more and more. Instead of stopping and thinking about what is it they really want, most people’s problems are because they don’t stop to analyze.

    [01:53:45]

    Yeah, hunter hunter gatherers like were. We think that they must have been just hunting all the time, but actually didn’t hunt very often, they had much more leisure time than we do. And if you look at the leisure, time is gone less and less the rich. We’ve got. And they seemed more connected, didn’t they, as well? Yeah, yeah, they lived in small tribes and actually had a lot more equality because men and women had so the man would provide me, but that would only be every couple of days or every three or four days where the women would gather this stuff pretty much every day.

    [01:54:29]

    So the societies had more equality, like the whole patriarchy came about from agriculture because it was like you needed the man to have to plow. You couldn’t separate. And so that’s where it became. So does that make sense from. And so where were we? Sandra, there was something. Sorry, can you just remind me of what you would what you were saying before, because there was a point of order, sir. Oh, I forgot.

    [01:55:14]

    And. What about the. Well, what about emotion and logic, you say emotion tells you what’s going on and logic tells you what to do.

    [01:55:29]

    Yes. So. So. The reason we get into relationships is for emotional reasons, for how we feel, how we can tell how a relationship is going is from our emotions. The problem people have is when they make decisions on how to get. To how to get somewhere from based on emotion, so they pick someone because they’re really attractive, they pick, they decide, they decide to believe someone because. Because this is the whole thing of someone being an abusive relationship.

    [01:56:14]

    But, yeah, I love them. I can’t do that because, you know, I feel this way. I mean, people do things for emotional reasons that make no sense. And so we have to separate. So emotion is about how we feel, why we do it. But then the reality of the situation. Logic is the way that we mediate between how we feel and what we want and the reality of the situation. And so if we don’t work logically in that we make decisions because we want them to be true rather than actually all true.

    [01:56:59]

    So we don’t take reality into consideration. Does that make sense?

    [01:57:04]

    Yeah, that makes sense. It’s just I’m trying to get the distinction between, I suppose, where one seeks guidance in terms of physical, emotional or logic because emotions or feelings. OK, so you’re saying we don’t base our decisions based on feelings, but yet those feelings are telling us how we how we feel about the situation. Yes, so if you’re unhappy, then there’s a mismatch between what you want and the reality.

    [01:57:41]

    So that’s where you need logic, so like the contrary, if you try to analyze the relationship with logic in terms of why you like it, why you should be in a relationship, the people will often make lists in. Like who they’re going to pick from Oklahoma or whatever, and that is when when you try and when you try to judge your relationship by logic, you just end up overthinking and overanalyzing because the whole purpose of it is to fail.

    [01:58:25]

    The purpose of a relationship is to fail to make you feel the feeling. If you’re not if you’re not feeling that, then there’s a problem with logic because there’s a mismatch between what you want and how you navigating. So life is really like this path to be navigated because life has everything. It’s just if we can navigate to it now, if we. So let me use the example of a GPS. If a GPS took the route because it was a pretty clear road.

    [01:59:00]

    You’d end up somewhere different if it decided how to map the room based on what the best scenery was, you might not get to your destination. So you want GPS to be logical, like this is the layout. This is where the right guys, this is where there’s a roadblock. This is where like traffic is. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. So we have to be logical. But at the same time, you’re saying the thing that drives us in a relationship is the desire for the feeling.

    [01:59:37]

    Yeah.

    [01:59:38]

    So the only time we need logic is to mediate between when we’re not feeling something.

    [01:59:45]

    But but, Rob, the person who may bring out the most intense feeling in you may be the worst person for you. Exactly. And that’s why you that’s why, like so many people will get swiped by this person because it’s the last because of all these reasons. And they make terrible decisions because what they’ve done is they’ve taken that go with this person. So whereas if they were logical, they’d realize the goal isn’t that person’s goal is how they want to feel in the relationship.

    [02:00:24]

    So their relationship that they want is more important than who it’s with.

    [02:00:28]

    So that’s where you have to navigate with logic, says you. If you navigate with emotion, you’re just going to chase the prettiest girl. And that’s why people stay in relationships through the. Because so when you see Beauty and the Beast, don’t question it, because that could be the best relationship going. I love that movie.

    [02:00:58]

    But what you’re saying is that the goal is the feeling and not the actual individual in the relationship. So if that individual wasn’t right, then you move on to someone who does feel what and it’s that logical decision that you will make to move on to get the right. But what you’re doing is you’re not just moving. So I don’t feel that it’s the logic of. So, like, what do I want to feel, does this person have the qualities and the capability to make me feel like that?

    [02:01:33]

    So you’re not just saying I’m not feeling good, because another thing that people do is they feel bad for whatever reason, maybe they’re going through a rough time and because they feel bad, what will this is like us being busy, rushing, not really thinking things through? We may feel bad for reasons that got nothing to do with our partner, but we then blame our partner for how we feel and so people will leave a relationship because they feel bad.

    [02:02:05]

    It is when you feel bad, you want to change something, but people will buy more when they feel bad. People will change relationships. People get into relationships to try and change their state. But it’s really something they can only change themselves. So. It’s knowing why you feel bad, and that’s where the logic comes in. So it’s not just blindly changing one person for another, but why, what is wrong? So the logic mediates what’s really going on?

    [02:02:41]

    And is this the best route? Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks. And there was another point I was going to make with that, and I’m still can’t remember what Sandra trigged. But Tillicum, yeah. Number nine. OK, and as anyone else or any questions, comments, but let’s rub this logic, this issue of logic that puts a level of responsibility on oneself to be to do that.

    [02:03:37]

    But one has to have certain tools to be able to think logically, not just logically, but to be able to analyze the particular issue if you have no idea what benchmarks you’re supposed to use or you should be using to make that assessment. How do you go about that? OK, that’s a good point because. Why so many relationships fail is because nobody has that. And individually and as a relationship, we’re a closed system. So if you’re if you’re not getting any other information, then.

    [02:04:29]

    You believe that you’re right, but you you don’t know what you know, so. I think you have to have information from outside. In whatever form, and it’s a bit like air traffic control, so you need load like GPS, it’s like you have to have a triangulation because you don’t know where you are. Without that triangulation, so key, if you can remember, can you ask me that question again? So going off on that is to exercise logic.

    [02:05:06]

    You need to have certain tools. OK, yeah. And if you are not equipped and you can’t benchmark, how do you know that exercising this logic, you have arrived at any relevant conclusions? Because also external forces who may provide you with some insight may be the wrong ones. And you can’t make an assessment as to who is giving you good advice versus I. Let’s think about that. So I would say so. I believe it comes down to like brutal honesty with yourself and it comes down to you being above the line.

    [02:05:51]

    Does that make sense to everyone above, line by line, above line, strong guidelines, weak, so. And I think it is really about the whole thinking free, like free of thinking your own thoughts in knowing. Knowing who you are. Knowing what’s important to you. And then it’s making the tough decisions. I’m going to play devil’s advocate. How do you know who you are? When do you realize that you actually know who you are and that you can be your decisions on really knowing who you are and what you mean by tough decisions?

    [02:06:46]

    OK, um. OK, so. So I told you that I think we have a blueprint, and for us to be happy means that we live by that blueprint. And we get swayed off by what other people tell us, dogma, by ignorance and by emotions. So it really comes down to so how do you know who you are? I think that’s something you can only feel so you can sort of feel when is right and when something’s wrong.

    [02:07:29]

    And if you give time and attention and energy to distinguishing and being really honest with yourself. You can. Identify. Well. What is really you and what is a story that someone else has? Given you. But there are some people who are not comfortable with looking at themselves. Yeah, and that and I know people like that, they kind of spend an evening alone. They actually don’t in their own company. So to look at themselves, to spend time to understand what they like as a person on to themselves, they don’t stop.

    [02:08:23]

    They are the life of the party. They are constantly on the go. They are being entertained all the time. So that introspection that you are speaking of. Could actually be something that they consciously avoid and as a result of that, their relation? Well, I must say, those that I know, their relationships all feel at one point or another. And possibly that is the reason why.

    [02:08:53]

    Yes, my my my personal opinion of people who are depressed is that deep down they think they’re a bad person. And because they think they’re a bad person, they don’t want to look. They don’t want to challenge and. So Karen talks about wind energy, that’s why people don’t kill is because they like the wind. Because the win gives them something and that becomes the story, that means that they don’t have to look at themselves. What does that mean?

    [02:09:32]

    Please come in my mind and my SS bit of a martyrdom syndrome in a sense sometimes and sometimes just because it’s hard and it’s scary to look at yourself.

    [02:09:51]

    Most people want and like you say, like those people who can’t see it because there are demons in their head and so they will try everything else. But nothing will work, and so they’ll draw tied to drugs or whatever and go down that way or that constantly distract themselves until the pain gets more and more. So, yeah, not everyone will, and I think there are a few people that are really willing to be that honest. So that’s why most people live alone, like.

    [02:10:42]

    So it comes down to you being able to recognize that type of person and not getting hooked up with that kind of person. Yes, yes, yes. It’s looking for that person. Not at all. None of us are. Very few are above the line all the time. Most of us have found up, down, up, down. But it’s the ability the one thing. Yeah, it’s the one thing to face that want the desire to be above the line, which ultimately comes down to integrity because integrity is about.

    [02:11:27]

    Do what you think, say and do line up. If they don’t, then you’ll see people that’s the person you’re presenting, is the person you’re thinking you are, the person you’re saying you are and the person of what you’re doing. So that’s why integrity is like the core building block. So. Most people want. Don’t can everyone there? I don’t know. But then there are. People that people can go to. I mean, that’s why.

    [02:12:06]

    People like me, therapists, coaches as whole industry of people that exist. And I think I think we all need. Whether it’s whether you get it from books, whether you get it from print, whether you get it from. The spiritual teachers or friends or whatever. Yeah, I think we all need something outside of us to tell us where we are. Because there’s like that whole. Proper perception of not knowing where you are in relation to everything, we don’t know that ourselves.

    [02:12:54]

    Is that what you just used? What perception, prior perception, which is basically physically knowing where you are in Lockington in relation to the walls? People who have poor perception like will walk into walls and bump into things. Is it like that saying that they said you can’t see yourself if you’re in the picture when you need someone else to from the outside? That’s it.

    [02:13:25]

    But yeah, I mean, it’s not necessary that you can’t, but it just takes a high degree of honesty and a separation from yourself, separation from the account of yourself.

    [02:13:39]

    But even with honesty is still difficult to see the self because we have so many blind spots. So I suppose the point is it’s really useful to have somebody to give honest reflection or positive criticism.

    [02:13:51]

    Yeah, exactly. That’s why I’m saying that, that we’re a closed system. We need something outside of ourselves.

    [02:13:58]

    And in many respects, sometimes we can be too hard on ourselves. Yeah, and which is which is the next one, like integrity, respect and respect is a two way thing. Respect yourself, respect for your partner and respect is not really like a lot of people demands respect the sense of if you talk to me like they treat me like they respect. Respect is really about a curiosity of how you made up how what makes you tick, how do work and for yourself and for that and for your partner.

    [02:14:33]

    And then the third one is kindness to yourself and to a partner. That’s why those three, in my opinion, are the key to relationships. Because everything else builds from the. Well, as well, as you mentioned earlier, if you look at integrity and if you operate from a position of integrity, then most other things fall into place because the issue of respect, the issue of kindness, those all emanate from a place of integrity in it and.

    [02:15:15]

    When someone’s out, understand that then many of the issues that people focus on as being separate from everything else, they would see that they’re all there, that they’re all bound up within this whole concept of integrity. It’s just one thing. So when, for example, with in my situation, I talk about respect, not not not feeling respected in certain circumstances. It’s all going back to the integrity issues. Of the person. Yeah, yeah, because.

    [02:15:59]

    When someone does not have integrity. They know that they’re lying, they know and they know how they know something like in their head, like you like the whole Donald Trump thing of winning and business is cheating other people or someone knows that. And when someone’s doing that, that’s what they’ve done, that they separate it into a bit of guilt and then this separation of the self. And because of that, they have to operate in two worlds, two selves.

    [02:16:38]

    And so.

    [02:16:42]

    Like, who are you if they have a confusion of who they are? Because they’re operating in two separate places. How do you. How do you navigate when you’re in two separate places, but an acceptance of guilt means that there is room for improvement because there’s an acknowledgement of imperfection in that scenario. Yeah, but that then it wouldn’t be so much guilt. Because they tend to feel guilty because they don’t face up to it, but an acceptance of what they’ve done.

    [02:17:23]

    Acceptance of acceptance in terms of forgiveness. But it’s forgiveness. Of then like this, wrong? I’ve sat back and I moved four different. Well, acknowledgement, you mean, yeah, and also and acknowledgement has to be the change, because if you’re not changing that, many people will talk about feeling guilty and talk about, like, apologize without ever changing anything.

    [02:17:55]

    So it’s sincerity. So if the person if there’s an expression of sincerity, then you can bridge, bridge, bridge gaps, because that leads to a belief that is that you have acknowledged and you’re sincere about making amends. Yeah. If they if they become if they achieve integrity. Yeah, yeah, this is at the heart of that introspection, which is a willingness to be honest and truthful and see what’s really there as opposed to being in denial. Yeah, yeah, I mean, why do people deny because they don’t like what they say, because they don’t want it to be true mechanism.

    [02:18:45]

    Yeah, it’s it’s navigating from emotional rather than logic. Because it feels bad so that they ignore it rather than reason. Yeah, because they don’t want to accept it and they don’t want to feel that. So then accept it. Tonight think because they can’t be asked to make the change as well. Yeah, I think that comes about. Well, I was just going to say that’s a key point about emotion, because I think that because emotions are so powerful, people don’t necessarily realize that they’ve made that decision supposedly that a lot of time, if not most of the time, that would be an unconscious decision based on.

    [02:19:25]

    I feel bad. And then they just. Unconsciously decided to go into denial and turn away from that thing. Yeah, and really it all comes down to is that people come, come. But that is because. Nobody like we have 12 years of school minimum and we learned all kinds of useless facts to waste our time copying down composes things, and yet how many of us who talk about emotions, how to manage our emotions, how to deal with emotions, basically boys tell us not to have them until you’re taught to suppress them.

    [02:20:11]

    Yeah. And so, like the whole thing of making relationships. Is that men typically don’t communicate as well, and it’s just because men have been held out to have fulfilled this role, never been told that they should or how to communicate. So some can, some called, but most common. And women are taught not to reveal their sexuality, they are to keep a lid on it. Yes, yes. There’s that whole thing. There’s also women.

    [02:20:53]

    Women were always not allowed to speak. And so they tend to be more manipulative. And so this these women manipulate men can’t show weakness. So there’s this mismatch of communication. Men are not supposed to cry, show weakness. Yeah. I wish that that teaching of emotions and communication was part of the curriculum in school, that I would avoid so many social issues as well. It’s all related. But I suppose the thing is that you have to look at how new it is that we’ve actually started studying commotions.

    [02:21:43]

    I think you look at a time when I went to school, there was no such word as emotional intelligence. I mean, it’s very basic research on emotions. I mean, psychology is only 150 years old as a discipline. So we don’t know anything. And school, when schools are run by politicians who were selling this, selling the idea. I mean, you have the education system that’s run by a minister that isn’t qualified to teach. And so it’s and it’s all based on a political ideology.

    [02:22:22]

    And it’s not even necessarily what they believe in. It’s just one I think is going to sell the.

    [02:22:29]

    Is traditionalism, to a certain extent, it’s fearlessness, but also education started out as being not about the whole person, it was about a conveyor belt of workers.

    [02:22:44]

    Yeah, and yes. So this is really like we talked about a thing free rebellion. That’s really what it’s about is about. Unless you fight for your own thinking, for what serves you, you’re going to be at the mercy of. What church said in the old days, what the government says or the media says so that you buy this stuff, you strengthen their organization, their institutions and some politician, you know, even the idea of the hills that we don’t know if he’s had the lowest figures, 650 people were killed in one battle on on one general or one even by chief of staff for their political aims.

    [02:23:35]

    When you look at all of the wars that we’ve been for, what really forced some politicians have more power to have more control, whereas really most of the people in a country doesn’t really matter who the king or the government or whatever is, we just want our own land to be able to get on with our neighbors, to be able to get on with our community. And yet the whole history of war has been lives lost for the person in the front, for the person who wanted the extra country.

    [02:24:12]

    I mean, we’ve now reached the stage where. Like, we don’t sort of dominate and conquer other countries, so. We don’t need that whole power force thing, and yet relationships are still based on that thinking that based on forcing people on controlling behavior that I don’t like, instead of dealing with your ability to have that discomfort.

    [02:24:48]

    So the notion of a liberal liberated relationship is a new concept, then, yeah, I mean, when you look at the whole issue of divorce has mostly been because women didn’t feel free. These predominantly women to initiate divorce leads predominantly women that fell in income.

    [02:25:13]

    Yeah. That’s really true. I mean, nobody gets into a relationship thinking I want to be controlled and influence the manipulated they go, I want to be in a relationship so I can be more of myself. And then it’s just a matter of as that part of the relationship where I can be free to be myself, or do they try and limit and control me? But also, even if someone says and tries to be liberal in their thinking, there are times when you will find that subconsciously they are back to some of the norms that you are trying to keep out of your relationship.

    [02:26:03]

    And they creep in, you know, and even though they may be said jokingly, you know, that there’s some intent behind it, you know, like, OK, there’s expectation if you get married, you should change your surname automatically. You have to be Mrs. So-and-so. I if I had thought about it, I would not have given up mine. But anyway, it’s gone, things like that. And it’s you are expected to fit in and to do those things without thinking about them.

    [02:26:44]

    And if you think too hard about them, then you’re either being subversive to the whole concept of matrimony and what it’s supposed to be. And you are fighting against the norms. And to what end? Because the the question then is why are you fighting against all of what is normal for the rest of us? And is it a fight worth worth fighting? Well, if you’re really honest about that, like the custom of someone’s surname, why is that important?

    [02:27:27]

    And for most people for most people, it’s because of what a lot of people think. Yeah, of course, you think about it, OK, family, and it’s easy as a unit to have, especially if you have children, everybody has the same name.

    [02:27:44]

    I don’t want to change mine, that is just six points. I’m not changing my name. I mean, my middle name is boring, but nonetheless, I like it.

    [02:27:53]

    So I should have. Do you not want to change your mind, Mr.. I don’t want to change my name because my dad is he’s my hero, if it wasn’t for my dad, I would be dead by now. I, I can say that a man is going to give me as much or be that person is always there as my dad is. So it does make sense to me. What do you think of that, Alex?

    [02:28:31]

    You can get married. That’s right. Is this a hill you’re going to die? Old Alex. My name is. How would you go? Which is this broadly unpronounceable and practically unstoppable. So I’m definitely not going to tell anybody who didn’t want to share my surname ever. So I would dislike it. But I don’t mean to impress a lifetime of having to spell it out phonetically or anybody else in the world that you think take on that burden to claim that it’s not it’s not.

    [02:29:10]

    Have to sell my name here. OK, I have some like that. Personally, it’s not. So it’s not something that’s that’s important to me. So, you know, I guess I guess kind of going back to what you’re saying, Rob, you know, that’s that’s a fight that I would choose not to pay for.

    [02:29:35]

    I have a very good basis, but there are some. But there are some groups where that would become a subject of contention. Some families and you have very important I had a friend that had a fight with her almost husband at the time because she said that she didn’t want to take her name and they had a massive fight over that.

    [02:30:02]

    She did not take his name. In the end, they got to the Honeymoon Hotel and said, Mr. and Mrs. I don’t know what his name is, actually, but they said his name and he looked at her. See, I don’t know what your point was because everyone will think that you have my name, but they had a massive fight over that. And I was like, it’s OK. So I think I think really it’s about what are the real reasons?

    [02:30:40]

    And then really, honestly, the reasons. And then it’s just for the couple to to decide. And so the difference between like whenever there’s a problem is because of how you feel and then you have to match reality with a different story until you find the story that makes sense and makes you feel good with the same situation. And some couples, it’s. I mean, when you look at why the U.S. Customs are. I mean, that was really about ownership of women.

    [02:31:17]

    Yeah, it was about women not being their own property.

    [02:31:24]

    The charter law still exists in some places, you know. I used to get it when I was in Jamaica. Oh, you know, that is just the old laws on the books that have removed them. But yes, he needs to sign this for you and like, what the hell? No way. No, no, it’s not happening.

    [02:31:47]

    I spoke at my wedding and everybody was just totally oh, she had to do that because, you know, the bride doesn’t speak or I spoke to the bride to be you, Estella and Portugal. You do. No.

    [02:32:12]

    No, I wasn’t. No, they are not expected to speak. The boogying gives a speech and the bride just smiles when the bride was not happy.

    [02:32:22]

    She spoke well, then insisted that my sister insisted a wedding on on having a speech. And my other sister, her maid of honor, did the speech as well. So they have the groom’s speech bride speech, the best one speech. And the speech really, really did. But I think it’s.

    [02:32:51]

    Having the many of those discussions before actual marriage, though, Rob, and if I remember my situation, who we spoke to was the priest and unmarried gentleman who had no clue about marriage, who was trying to tell us about marriage.

    [02:33:14]

    It was no looking back at it in our US. Those are educationist all over again, doesn’t it? Precisely. So that’s that’s the same as giving couples therapy in my country. That happens. And I was like, but in what basis? They don’t allow gays to marry. So in what basis are you going to give couple advice?

    [02:33:38]

    Because because when you look at the history of the church, the story is Moses went into like, was there a fire or something? And then he took out the name on the tablet, the Ten Commandments, the whole Jesus. And the pope is ordained and is Jesus representative back in the Catholic Church. So that’s the story that the story of the Bible. Well, it was a book written by men. And yet but what happens in society is that when you make something important, sacred and certain, nothing is ever done.

    [02:34:25]

    It becomes immune to no one can question it. So like even Latin, the pageantry around the queen, is it the whole purpose of it is that no one can question it becomes like the emperor’s new clothes.

    [02:34:39]

    But it was just used rope. You said it’s what? Yeah, like the pageantry of the queen around the queen and of the ceremonies, you know, on certain or sacred was sacred, free things, I can’t remember where I got it from, but sacred, certain and important means that something is never challenged. And so when you have sacraments of religion and it’s like people say, oh, you like you can’t question religion because, you know, nobody’s allowed to question religion because when it’s questioning, science wasn’t allowed to question religion for a long time and because its power comes from not being questioned.

    [02:35:36]

    And so the power of the church is so strong that things that make no sense, like priests, even the fact of priest not being able to marry. That’s the story. And then that priests know, even though even in the face of so much abuse and when you look at medieval times, how they vote, how corrupt they were, and even in the face of that, because you’re not allowed to challenge that narrative. I have, they are the direct conduits of God.

    [02:36:11]

    So it all depends on the story. And it’s knowing like the whole thing, I think, for you is about. People who have something to gain, as in church government, everyone, they protect their stories by making them unchallengeable, but another way they do it is by humiliating humiliation and shame. Yeah, I mean, when you look at I mean, Hitler did essentially the same as he made himself like their religious things, had Hitler instead of Jesus, and they had to treat Hitler as if he was Jesus.

    [02:36:50]

    And you use force, fear and ostracize people. Yeah. But in that regard, then cultism then becomes a force against which free thinking and I’m putting all of the various types of groups which are organized in our own mind control, where mind and physical control, if you’re truly if you truly want to be able to look at oneself and one’s place. In the universe, then you really have to be able to remove the shackles imposed by any of these groups and be willing to test theories tests, test all manifestations of of of rules and whatever you want to call them, guides, whatever you things that are put out to circumscribe how you live your life.

    [02:38:12]

    And I think that maybe in today’s society, when there are so many examples of people who are able to do that, people who are constricted by these rules have serious conflict. And I really wonder, I probably spend a lot of time wondering about happiness if I live in such an organized and such a restricted life based on all of these rules, if you can truly be happy. And if what if what their experiences, happiness, troubles through whatever it is versus what they’re seeing of those who seem to abide by none of these rules.

    [02:39:02]

    I think the the core of happiness is freedom and, yeah, anything anything like I think you just have to look when you when you feel that you just have to look and you have to look at what is control and control can be a partner in a relationship, can be someone you work with. Well, anything that is control is where someone is trying to make you be their idea of what they want you to be. His parents, like, you know, parents, however much they love you, they’ve got an idea of what’s best for you.

    [02:39:44]

    And yes, so the core of it is self responsibility, is that which means which goes back to, you know, the whole thing of depression and people not wanting to face up to things. And the core of that is that we have to take responsibility for everything, the good and bad, because otherwise we’ve given control to something, someone or something else. So if we say it’s the circumstances, if we say to someone else, what that means is we’ve given away our responsibility and we’ve given away our ability to change it.

    [02:40:20]

    And at the center of that is the sense that we are able and worthy, which is for some is the definition of self-esteem. So I think we give away responsibility when we show that we we are able to make her a competent response. Yeah, yeah.

    [02:40:36]

    And in so many ways, we’re told that we know because we grow up with all these big institutions and with teachers and things who tend to know more and so. We grow up with everyone around us knowing more than we know about babies and children, and so we end up stuck. We end up believing more in them and in us. And there’s a point of adulthood which is really I think Alex cannot with that, which is really where you take control and you take responsibility and you take control of your own story.

    [02:41:19]

    And if you don’t do that, then you can’t be happy and. You know, your relationship, like you call the relationship, is an extension of your happiness. But some people seem to be content to move from.

    [02:41:36]

    Well, as you say, from the parents, the control of parents to the control of school, control of church, control of various institutions. And their life is dictated by one after the other or a combination of at the same time.

    [02:41:56]

    So it’s like they’re sleepwalking through life. But that’s because ultimately underneath they feel that. They feel that they are not competent. So they hand over that control to the church government, whatever. Exactly. So that’s what this is based on. But that is what democracy in politics is based on, it’s based on this person who can like the whole thing with Trump because people really believe that they needed him to make America great again because they don’t feel that they can do it for themselves because they feel small in comparison to the laws.

    [02:42:37]

    When you look at whether it’s Brexit or whether it’s Trump or whatever, actually. In our lives, whether we left left Europe or we stayed in Europe, is is not going to make to each of our lives. Financial terms is probably a make a difference of a few grand, whereas a potential we all have for this career or that career, which can be tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions in some cases, is our success or failure is far more to do with us than it is with the political or the economic landscape.

    [02:43:24]

    But if you do not feel that you are the best person that you can be and you feel that you are a victim of whatever it may be, and you have somebody giving you what seems to be a promise of something better, then you are going to cling to that because it makes you feel superior. Once again, it makes you feel good again in yourself. And that’s the American experiment at the moment with Trump, with what Trump was promising, in particular, disadvantaged poor whites in the rural parts of America and.

    [02:44:10]

    People on the outside looking in America cannot understand if they were to go into the rural. I went to university in Alabama. OK, so I could have been in the boonies. And I was telling you, you want to see poverty.

    [02:44:30]

    You want to see people who are ignorant of the world. The number of times that I had to explain that I came from a sovereign country. That was not a part of a state. It’s not Jamaica Plains, New York. It’s a country in the western Caribbean Sea, you know, et cetera, et cetera. They have no clue about anything beyond the borders of America or their state. So their place in the world is compromised in the first place.

    [02:45:04]

    And what he was promising them was that they were going to be reinstated into this position where, as the founding fathers seem to have thought, that the poorest of the white man there would be superior to all others in America, no matter how poor, impoverished, uneducated he was. And that’s what Trump reignited in without explicitly stating it. And so now they are going to be crushed once again. And it’s that the. Yeah, and I think everything in our world from school, from the media, everything tells us that we’re small and it’s down to someone else, it’s down to economics, it’s down to politics, he’s down to whatever.

    [02:46:13]

    And that’s why people get so irate that there’s a lot of victim narrative that’s being sort of shoved about whether it’s with race or sex or gender or sexually. It’s, you know, you’re a victim, which is completely disempowering, which is the opposite of obviously what we want. So I think people are being encouraged to talk to actually think for themselves.

    [02:46:40]

    That is, someone said it quite the most. The biggest challenge was something like that, the most revolutionary thing you can do is think for yourself.

    [02:46:59]

    But the ability to think for oneself. Is OK, if you if you if you’re on if you’re a hermit, maybe that’s why people get permits in the past where they could think unfettered without fear of any sort of retribution or, you know, they could think the most scandalous thoughts. But now we have several fora that we can use to explore, even though you have this cancer culture thing coming into play nowadays. But nonetheless, you can find ways and means of exploring your thinking, be passively just by listening or engaging like we are now without fear of being labeled subversive or whatever that term may be applied to us, but.

    [02:48:03]

    Once again, I think that is something that is actively discouraged from you are young, so many of the questions that we are now asking, if we had the opportunity in our youth, we could have asked and be better equipped. From very early in our growth, for example, even at university, when you go to university, you’re discovering what it is to be free of family and who you are exploring your sexuality. You’re doing all kinds of things and stuff, but nothing, nothing in terms of any kind of.

    [02:48:43]

    Incyte Beed, a trusted person to even have a conversation with. I was lucky in that my first year at university I was 18 and the psychiatrist at the university clinic set up a peer group, a peer counseling group. And my friends and I, we all became part of that group and we stayed together for four years. So we would go on retreats and we would discuss issues. And if people came, fellow students come to us, we would have at least we would be able to listen to them.

    [02:49:19]

    We couldn’t give counseling or anything, but we could at least listen to them and, you know, be there for them. But by and large, many people don’t even have that. And then it becomes kind of ingrained in you that the natural thing to do is to keep it all to yourself, because you you are not accustomed to talking to anybody and to share and to share and to share issues. Yeah, I think that’s so I think what what really motivates people is feeling.

    [02:49:59]

    Is sadness like feeling unhappy is where and I think as a culture, we reached the point where levels of suicide, depression, anxiety is so high and is part of it is to do with expectation because people didn’t used to expect any better. Whereas now we’re expecting, like what we what we’re living and what we’re expecting aren’t matching up. And so this is why we suddenly start to. Look into these things, but then he goes back to a bit of Maslow’s hierarchy of where physical needs are most important and then moving up to self actualization and so on.

    [02:50:45]

    So I think it’s I think society is much better and it will grow, but it’ll go out of the way of growth through pain and through conflict. But I think we also have to acknowledge that we are not unique in all circumstances and may have variations on it in our stories, but we can always find people who have elements of our experience that we can have some commonality and we can on that basis have a discussion or, you know, find a way to look at it to if it’s only to even feel better to feel that way.

    [02:51:30]

    OK, fine. I’m not alone in this issue. If nothing else, it’s not just seeking a solution, but at least you know that others do understand your plight.

    [02:51:39]

    I think the great crime of our culture is it’s made us feel that we’re the only ones. People feel like a divorce is a personal failure. And yet. Fifty five percent of marriages end in divorce. So you’re not in the minority. But that pressure to feel like failure shuts you up. So no one talks about it. Yeah. And also, I think one of the ways I look is every human problem has some way of being solved by someone.

    [02:52:15]

    And you can find any example of someone who’s done it. Yeah, exactly, and which is why I think Facebook, a lot of the social media does more harm than good because you go on and people spend hours on it. But what you see on it does not this does not reflect the issues or it puts a sticking plaster on it or it’s romanticizes it and takes away from the seriousness of the issue. It compounds your feelings of of unworthiness and self-esteem instead, etc.

    [02:52:55]

    . And so that’s that to me adds another dimension, which is quite serious to this pool.

    [02:53:02]

    So I think that I think that is coming out. I think I think the Trump thing is really good because it showed the whole problems in America that were covered up by sort of political correctness. And it also showed that the how social media and also like the kind of thing with all the conspiracy theories and all the different ideas that then. So I think these are all going to be worked out, but we have to have some time from it to in order to see for it.

    [02:53:41]

    And when you see, like, the sexual dilemma and the people are coming out about how it’s gamed and engineered to. We’re really just recognizing that Facebook isn’t providing this service to make everyone feel good, but they’re doing it for money and we are the product and therefore they’re engineered to manipulate those for their own ends. And it’s just recognizing that everyone from the companies that advertise to the government, the politicians and the governments who want to be in power to.

    [02:54:18]

    The church will convince us to believe in them to exist.

    [02:54:23]

    All of these are working for their own agendas in the House and that one cannot live on virtual friends alone. One needs to get real friends until we have virtual reality anyway.

    [02:54:41]

    Until then. Until then. And we are totally immersed in it, then that’s fine. But right now, there’s a separation between reality and the virtual world. And I suspect that for a while yet we still want to feel, touch, hug a real life computer. It is funny that you say that because I was talking to a friend yesterday and she has a cousin like twenty one years old and is really struggling because it’s social skills and the friends, they don’t know how to socialize and now with covid worse.

    [02:55:17]

    And so it doesn’t really interact with anyone at present because it’s all machines and they are not taking advantage of certain things that we have, not like Skype and doing whatever. They don’t know because they don’t want to call friends, which is really weird. They don’t speak. On the whole, I don’t know how to I feel it’s really, really sad. It’s really sad. Have you seen Simon Cynic’s talk on Millennial’s? Yes, I think I saw that.

    [02:55:49]

    I think that that was brilliant, just about everybody is talking about like when everything is too easy.

    [02:55:57]

    Yes, I have seen one of the real things. I’ll take more. Really, what we get our life is what we give in to life, from relationships, from life and career, everything. And so it’s. Yes, that willingness to do the work, many of them, and then just to wrap up that that willingness is about what kills.

    [02:56:26]

    Well, Rob, your services will be needed for a very long time.

    [02:56:34]

    A social project. We can start a social project with your therapeutical side and I’ll start with the social studies. I think I’ve seen some of them, some of these young people, and they can’t even look you in the eye and they haven’t yet. They find it very difficult to look you in the eye. It’s very difficult for them. I think it’s probably too intense for them. I don’t know. I don’t know. Is that different?

    [02:57:08]

    It’s different in the sense that I think they feel that there’s a difference. I find that there’s a difference because it’s it’s along with the inability to actually even ask a question. It’s not about shyness anymore because I’m not talking the gangly 15, 16 year old. I’m talking even older than that because your eyes are always on the screen of this little texting and they don’t speak on the phone and they don’t they don’t have to look at you even if they’re on online, they’re doing something or zooming or Skype or whatever.

    [02:57:48]

    They’re doing things with the other person. So it’s not about sitting and actually looking at the person’s facial expressions or anything.

    [02:57:58]

    They’re using emojis as emojis. They don’t have to be at the risk of making a wide and offensive generalization, I suspect. But I think also, you know, when you when so much gratification is kind of thought from from social media and from presenting this kind of this picture perfect view of yourself to the world, and that’s who you are. There’s a real there’s a real fear of being vulnerable to somebody. So, you know, meeting somebody in person, speaking on the phone, speaking of the video, you know, you don’t get the opportunity to kind of pretty open up and say the right thing and always post the right picture.

    [02:58:41]

    It’s like, well, I might want spilled coffee on myself or I get a word or not know what to say. And and, you know, that can be very vulnerable if you’re not. I don’t know if that’s kind of something that you usually kind of hide behind or if that’s where your main source of gratification comes from.

    [02:59:01]

    But you’re right. You can you can’t shut off a real person. But you can you know, it’s not exactly.

    [02:59:12]

    Oh, dear. OK, well, thank you for for being here. It’s nice to see you, Alex.

    [02:59:25]

    Yes. Lovely to meet you. Thank you for having Stampfel. So I hope to see you next week or whenever you’re free.

    [02:59:38]

    Lovely. What’s next week?

    [02:59:41]

    And I had a few topics down. I think I was thinking, looking into integrity, compassion for all those individual qualities, a little bit more refined. I think probably that. Yeah, that’s good. Just how most are going to change the name of the group. But why? Because when I thought about it so severely, I changed from relationship. I have to think for it because then when I thought about it, really, when someone doesn’t know anything about it, they think free rebellion and things like that.

    [03:00:20]

    I don’t want to be in a rebellion. So I think as a as a as a point of meeting someone, having a discussion around relationships is more relevant. So this is more my philosophical thing for people like Ron, who sort of understands a little bit more about the relationship skills.

    [03:00:43]

    But yeah, so I think I going to take you back to talking about relationships so well.

    [03:00:54]

    So the idea behind it is still the same. But I know I know you appealed to my sense of, you know, rebellion and establishment.

    [03:01:11]

    How can you be honest with relationship, rebellion, rebellion against rebellion, against traditional relationships?

    [03:01:26]

    No, it’s OK.

    [03:01:28]

    Yeah, well, maybe it’s discouraging a few people from actually joining up because I think otherwise you’re like when you say on meet up and you’re looking up and you got something, was that not the same people who would be discussing, like all of you, that you can free from that? So, yeah, I think that’s the next stage. Well, if you say so, I was also thinking about it. I think the book, a couple of books I want to write and one of them I’m going to call the relationship mindset now I’m going to call it the stories we tell ourselves about relationships.

    [03:02:16]

    But actually there is something about rebelling against the norm in terms of creating a and and an evolved relationship.

    [03:02:27]

    Yeah, I have rebelled against many of the strictures that we now find govern how we approach our relationships. And there is a rebellion against that.

    [03:02:41]

    So I would hold a rebellion where I love it and the rebellion is the philosophy. But it’s just when you confront someone with a philosophy, you know, they’re not understanding what it’s really about. So you give them like. What we’re actually doing, talking mostly about relationships, but then as they come in, they learn a lot from philosophical, but someone doesn’t get that the first time that they look at it, that’s fine.

    [03:03:16]

    Yeah.

    [03:03:16]

    So I was jumping from what we’re about, which was really about sharing with you, but that’s not the first thing someone is interested in.

    [03:03:28]

    So this is what, Rob, whether you change the name or not, you know, the discussion has evolved to a point where if they happened, if somebody new title or no title, they still don’t have the foundations. Yeah, well, I’ve also got an entry, so like an entry point of a relational as it relates to Mostri relationship, heaven and hell, the Finke free rebellion is the second part. Mastery, past mastery, expectations I haven’t done yet.

    [03:04:08]

    And. One of the one, but is the point of his five things to learn about us? Yeah, that would be the point.

    [03:04:20]

    OK, anyway, have a good have a good week and I will see you next week or whatever. Just keep on. Bye.