The Gottman’s Shared House Relationship Model

    In this episode our intrepid Rebels were challenged to work in teams and build a model of how to make a relationship work.

    After this, we looked at the Gottman’s Shared House relationship model. 

    Transcript

    Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. Tonight, we’re here for the the government shutdown relationship House model that we’re going to discuss. So you’ve just been in the breakout room talking about what you think your past relationships may have needed or what they were missing and what would have made them work if they were meant to work. Does anyone does anyone have any insights or thoughts to share based on.

    That discussion. I have a nice term that came up in my group not needing to have a fair partnership, a sense of a fair partnership, but I like that term needing to have or not need.

    Yeah, that’s that’s that’s that’s a shortfall in a relationship, not having one. But that’s what they would love to have. So that’s a shortcoming. Not having one. OK, that’s a good one. Anyone else stand standing up for a balanced relationship at the same time, standing up, great defending. Now, I’m struggling to remember if Rosa or Rosa.

    Yes, so we agreed with the girls that it was communication and trust and we talked about how. Sometimes taking a bit longer to get to know the person is a bit more worth it so that you get that kind of connection with them and then you get more communication and more trust and more openness to me personally. What that was, what locked in all of my past relationships was the communication and trust. And like I mentioned last week, there was this lack of vulnerability from the other side, like I couldn’t trust the person because they weren’t vulnerable with me.

    So it was just a one way street, really.

    OK, OK. Any any other qualities, so attributes of authenticity, honesty. Being present and also we have communication. OK, I come validation. OK, compatability. We cannot feel sorry. Another one is not knowing what we need, what we want.

    OK, self-awareness. Yeah. Within Rispoli, respectful boundaries, boundaries. Are not getting not not getting physical too soon. So, like, say, if you had a date in plan where you didn’t have physical contact to say like eight dates or whatever, you might decide that allows you to see the person as they really are and not get caught up in all the chemistry, which is wonderful. But if you’re OK, it’s almost like a drug. You know, you can get hooked and she’s free and not really see what you’ve got.

    Do you think that is just going to build up the chemistry and delay it? Or do you think that’s going to be a way around that? I think if you give yourself time to see where what the person is actually about and they’re a decent human being, there’s nothing wrong with me and a decent human being and that being chemistry. But if there’s just chemistry, there’s no compatibility that is doomed. I think that’s my personal experience and opinion. There’s gotta be something more.

    It’s okay to have the physical and the the connection and the compatibility. Ideally, you’re not going to marry someone you don’t find you don’t find attractive.

    Are you OK? And we had in our group the trying to avoid the conflict. Avoid conflict. By pleasing or just simply avoiding? OK. I made suggestions there, got Carol. Sorry about that. Yeah, I just made the suggestion that it seems like you can only really meet and connect with somebody to the level that they’ve done that with themselves. So how well they know themselves, how developed they are is the depth that you can merge with them.

    Mm hmm. I think it comes down to that. I think I can’t remember who it was that you talked about being vulnerability, the vulnerability. And that’s quite interesting, because when you do find someone who is willing to go further, more vulnerable than you. Is that going to feel threatening because there’s a point where all of us have where we feel comfortable and a lot of people say that they want a lot of communication and vulnerability, but it becomes then threatening when someone does go to that level, because then you find the limits of your own readiness to go to the thing.

    And I think you’re really spot on that role. But I think that’s why it’s important not to share vulnerability, see too soon. So you say if you went on a date for the second time with somebody and they started opening up about their life, you would think that was a red flag straight away. But if they said the same thing on the 10th day, it would be appropriate. May be just about the pace of the getting to know someone not doing it too quickly, just slowing everything down.

    Yeah, it’s it’s it’s not what you do. It’s the context in which you do it. The context is all important.

    And you have to be careful about cultural norms, though. If you’re an American, you will open up immediately. You will start to get that’s true. Culturally, they’re more open. So you may find that a little bit overwhelming.

    But, you know, a pretty open it’s wonderful, isn’t it, that that sort of emotional openness. I lived in America for five years and that is really beautiful in other cultures like Colombia, and they’re very gregarious and that’s beautiful. But what I’m trying to say is if you start sort of telling someone all your emotional history that whatever culture you’re in, that is kind of like, hang on a minute, that’s a bit too much in there.

    No, that’s the kind of if you are talking to somebody who is of the same culture, it may be normal for both of them. You may think it’s not the done thing, but that’s normal for them. But I think it’s more if it’s two people from two different cultures, how do you make that happy meeting that happy half halfway point where you can both work with the differences between you? I think can I present a different view, please?

    I believe if he’s not the right person for you or you are not the right person for him or her.

    Sorry, then. We are not willing to go that far to be vulnerable and open and transparent. Good poing, good polling, poorly in polling. I think that’s the difficulty I’ve had in past relationships, actually, and not trying to communicate people all the time and trying to conflate resolve and not being met halfway. I guess they’re not willing to be vulnerable or face their issues or be honest with themselves and with me. Yeah, and I guess it just depends how resolved they are within themselves, really.

    I think I think everyone everyone has a level that they’re willing to open up to and can connect to. And one of the problems that people have when they are dating or in a relationship, and then there’s all these kind of tricks and techniques and the rules and all of these things. And what they do is they essentially mask who you are. So the goal isn’t to make a relationship last with someone. The goal is to get the relationship that you want.

    And so the more quicker you can get to who someone is, the quicker you can work out that in Winstone relationship, you shouldn’t be. I need to make this work. It should be. Can it work with this person? Yeah.

    Mean spot on. You just hit the nail on the head. And so the quicker that you can get to that and then the less emotional thing there is if it doesn’t, if they’re not the right person. So yeah, it’s really just about finding the level that you can connect someone with. That they allow you to and you are comfortable with them. Sometimes it’s just simply the person got so much trauma, why it’s not even aware it’s having these issues, so it’s not really not honest with itself, it just simply never reached that crucial level.

    It’s just been always busy, busy, and that’s our these time issues, we try to be busy and we try to solve a lot of problems that should be first ourselves, but we should be every single day for ourselves, like so many great people does. First two, three hours. It should be yours, not even your partner, not even anybody else. It should be your wake up early, do your three hours for yourselves. Then after go and do the other stuff.

    Yeah, it’s easy to lose yourself in a relationship, and so many people do lose themselves in trying to be the person to please or the person that keeps the relationship going. OK, so we’ve we’ve got quite we’ve got quite a few ideas so that everyone still confident they have a good grasp of their feeling and understanding. So when I saw when I first read it, I used to just write stuff for us to talk a lot. And so if he came here expecting to listen, to talk, then that’s not what we want.

    We’re going to do. This is about being engaged and everyone sharing their views that we will come away with something better than any one of us had to start with. Now, what I want to do now is, is an exercise and we’re going to work in teams of about four or five in breakout rooms. And what I’d like you to do is think up if you had to. And I need to, because you’ve been assigned the task of making a model, the best model you can come up with in 20 minutes as a group for how to make your relationship work.

    AK. Does that make sense? We say that again, please. Sorry. So we’re going to work in groups in four or five in the breakout room and the idea is to take what is essential for building a relationship model. So I don’t know if you can see the whole thing. I’ve put it up as a virtual background of this is the Gutman’s relationship model. So what I’d like you to do before we go through it and talk about it, I’d like you to think about what in your view as a group, would it take to make a relationship work?

    So the government have been working on this like 40 years, but you’ve got 20 minutes. But just to come up with the best idea you have. And then so then we can we can compare that against the governments. OK, so we’ve got someone who wanted to do a kind of regulars know how things work in each group. If someone can take notes to be the spokesman and write down the model and draw in whatever, whatever kind of model seems to make sense.

    OK. Is that volunteering better? Yes. If it starts with self-knowledge, self awareness, knowing the self and one word values. So who you are and what you want in life next, honestly communicate honestly with your partner or prospective partner. This is driven by vulnerability, which in turn brings about trust and authenticity is at the center of it. So we had millions of words like tolerance and patience and empathy and understanding, and we spoke about willingness to invest in a relationship and having an emotional bank account and how we need to be willing to create a balance.

    But at the heart of it all really was honesty, starting with honesty to self Monkeybone. What you want and an honest. It’s OK, yeah, that’s those kids. Thank you. Does anyone else from that group who wants to do anything else in. Before we move on. OK, which group thinks that? So tonight we haven’t got Irial here, so it’s not going to be no bribery with apple crumble. So which group, just on the merits of the work that they’ve done, thinks that they have a better model or.

    Or is that sent out? Or who has an alternative model, is that Janosz? Yeah, we actually find a couple of good points. One of them was the courage. To be bold and to do the things like. Also, the self reflect, we said, which is related more further to understanding the healing from the traumas, how to even do that, to be aware about. Dialogue to resolve the problems. Rather than just its proper listin and really understanding and the space to giving for each other, especially when the trauma will trigger.

    And we also said, so don’t try to help others without being asked to help, because by that you actually not giving trust, you actually taking out the ability to learn how to solve that problem in the future. And by like that, it’s the person can feel it in control, and they’re also the ones who are aware of the common trauma triangle of. Victim, victim, Villone, and remember the other one, but yeah, becomes, you know, that kind of trauma of Survivor and saved.

    Could I ask what was the coverage needed for? So even to try to solve the problems, you know, for anything because solved, then we know what to do. But you actually have to put your ass there to do it. You have to be show up. And for that, you need a lot of courage. It’s not just self confidence. That’s not enough. You have to go there and do it. You have to go there and you have to be there and just the least.

    And that’s a courage. It’s Bradley Brown, really nice talking about that in Netflix, you can find it’s really nice. Because to me, the word courage says that you’re willing to make the effort and to be willing to make the effort to me speaks of having that value, because I think that was somebody who you don’t value, not willing to put in that effort.

    You need courage to trust Jesus and to give yourself completely. OK, is anyone else from Genesis greet anyone else kind of thing to say? OK, which says it is two more groups within the. He would like to talk from one of the others. I’m doing my good Irene and Matthews Group. OK, OK, OK.

    We came up with the idea of building a committed team, so it’s two individuals working together to build a committed team which has a sense of fun and enjoys physical and emotional intimacy. Yeah, I can’t even read my own handwriting. Sorry.

    And contributing to that, uh, the following things, um, authenticity which was mentioned before.

    Commitment. Conflict resolution and learning. Effective, these two separate things, conflict resolution and learning and yeah, and learning as in how to learn in conflict, learning, learning from the experience, from the conflict and the resolution thereof.

    Right. Effective communication, of course, that is all tied into that, but separate and apart from that as well, learning to ask for what you want. Being able to ask you, which I think also ties in with courage. Can create encouraging and appreciating individual growth. OK, and, of course, values always fit into that. And providing dynamic support. Dynamic, yeah, it way the changes it also one supports and the other supports. Yeah, yeah.

    And it may vary throughout, OK.

    You for the biggest list, we like to talk. OK, one more group whose was the last group? Nicole. And so, yeah, we had our analysis just about managed to get something together, but we’re talking first, we reckon it should be based on clear boundaries. About what both parties want, what you look for, what your morals and values are. Equals basically going from a place of equality with a partner, authenticity, which is really important and and with that we discuss that pertaining to autonomy as well.

    So having your own things going on, your own interests, a little bit of introspection, I guess, and honesty. I mean, that’s a given. And then we were feeling after this sort of communication and conflict resolution, so it with a bit of emotional intelligence, it’s got to be based on respect. And you to be able to communicate and resolve your issues. I’ve got to be vulnerable with each other. And then we’re feeling like shared humor is also important and teamwork, like Sandra was just talking about anyone else from the group mission.

    And it’s only two more to be Sandra’s group type patient, loving, caring. OK. OK, so. I think now if we go quick and give you three minutes, same groups to come up with three. So amalgamates amalgamate, which is more important, Kifri, when I did this, I made like this model based on my ideas and then I figured out what is that the core of the all? Because it’s easy to remember free. And it’s interesting that only one of them is turned up.

    Okay, so back in the same breakout rooms click fire free. And you see, you just need to really quickly agree amongst yourself, like I think or you assign authenticity and autonomy can probably be merged. And then we’ll come back in three minutes for just free. Free for each. So quickly, what are the three from each group? Compatibility, authenticity, interdependence. We found this difficult to narrow down, we went with communication, conflict resolution, respect, and then we went to show on the last one was sort of bounced around empathy and love.

    But I think authenticity is quite important as well.

    OK. It’s really hard to do in the short time and the other two groups. One of them was the authenticity aswell. We said all the communication to the solving problems. And the third one was a little bit like how we could describe. I believe I can explain. So you can explain. OK, I’ll add something, Sidrah Mutual Attraction’s. I guess you can say compatability, so which includes physical attractions, mental attraction, emotional attraction, spiritual attraction.

    A case different, like all three levels of attraction. Yeah, or more. Okay. Physical, mental, intellectual and same as mental, but emotional and spiritual. OK. And Kate and Betty. British group Honesty Values and Curtaining Katamon.

    AK. OK, so that’s interesting. So authenticity is showing up. It’s strange how in a group how much variety there is, and I think one of that one of the reasons for that is that words are very difficult. Words that I say would mean something slightly different to you. And so is really getting to the definitions of that. OK, so now I’m going to run through the government’s model. So that the government said John Gottman started work research on relationships about 40 years ago, saying that he he had no idea how to have a relationship.

    He had no idea about them. And really, he is someone very small, numbers driven, statistics driven. So he himan Bob Levinson just did this research and I didn’t intervene. They didn’t do anything. They just like the main research is in what they call a love lab. So they have like this flat where a couple will come in as if it’s like an Airbnb for a weekend and they’ll just be there as if they’re away for a weekend.

    And there’s cameras all around the lab, the couple of wired up. So it’s taking all their senses, you know, like heart rate, skin, all of these things you get in physiological states and they just watch them and they just analyze the video and they looked at how they talk to each other. I looked at how they disagreed. And interim government claims that he can think he said ninety seven percent. He can claim who’s going to which relationships are going to last and which aren’t.

    Primarily on how they argue it’s not if they are arguing isn’t the sign of a problem, it’s how you argue. So to set this up first by because what we’ve done so said basically most of what I’ve learned on relationships is based on the comments and then I’ve looked at so the governments that goal. So they differ from someone like Hovell Hendriks, whose goal is to be very idealistic. And they have a story that relationships are part of the journey.

    And so it’s a bit of a leap. It’s not maybe it’s true, maybe it’s not, but it’s not provable. Whereas the governments are very much only work on provable. And he’s spoken that their goal is to help couples and be able to have a pastry together. It’s not to be anything more than that. It’s not any great spiritual or that it’s just to be able to have a functioning relationship. So that’s where they came from. Now, John Gottman for 20 years, never had any theories.

    He had lots of research data, but he never intervened, never did anything. And it was only when he met his now wife and she’d been working as a therapist. And she was deeply and as a as a therapist. And she was able to type the data and build a story from it and say from that story, they now have the shared relationship model, that they have something that they can use as a basis for therapy. So. So let me go through the the the model, so essentially starts with building love maps.

    Now, probably the best selling relationship book is the Five Love Languages and five languages. Just a very broad generalization of some people like physical affection. Some people like words, words of affirmation. Some people like acts of service. Some people like presence. And some people like physical touch. So what that’s generally that points us to is people receive and love different differently. But the idea of the Gutman’s love maps is much deeper than that. That is, you understand what someone’s life is.

    Someone’s life is built out of hopes and dreams and fears, and it’s who’s important to them. What is their work mattered to them? What is this? This event meaning their life. So it’s understanding more and more what what your partner. What’s important to them? So. What we’ve what we’ve come up with, like in my models and in your models, is most of what we’ve come up with is what individuals need to come. Now, the government had talked a lot about relationships, about this is how you build a relationship.

    So it’s quite technical. And what I think it misses is it misses all the ingredients that we’ve talked about that someone has to have that qualifies them to have this relationship. So you can say do this relationship, but if you don’t have the self-awareness, if you don’t have the honesty, the communication, the vulnerability, all of those things, you’re not going to do this. So this is really about building love maps is really about deep empathy, really caring and listening and understanding what’s going on in your partner’s life.

    So the next level is to share fondness and admiration and one of the things that they say that they can distinguish between couples who are having a hard time, who are you can break through that and couples that can’t is that they talk to them about how did you meet? And the couples that will go back, oh, well, you know, she was she was the most beautiful woman and we met and we just had this great time and and he was so charming and he was the couples that have that fond memories.

    And I can see good in their in their partner have the ability to then go back and heal because they still have something positive, whereas couples that they go, I don’t know why I stuck with him. He was just he was just a miserable git and he was just there. And I was feeling like those couples, they don’t have that fondness and admiration since they don’t have that base to really go back to. So they talk a lot about bids now, a bid is sometimes like you want your partner’s attention and you might talk about something that’s going on, you might point something out, and you’re not really talking about that, but you’re using that as a device to get their attention and to open a dialogue.

    So couples that do that and the other person doesn’t pick up on it are a couples that don’t last because one is always making a bid. And then the others. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, like a couple, what you say makes no sense. And she’s off again, you know, that kind of not paying respect to them, whereas the couples that are not taking on face value. But I’m responding in the unspoken communication of what they’ve said.

    So that’s the other explicit communication of isn’t it a nice day? And then the unsaid and implicit of I’m wanting to connect to you. So the ones that respond to that, that which they they call turning towards instead of turning away. And so when they talk about a positive perspective and. This is generally thinking of your partner, so there’s research that shows. That pop that couples that last are deluded in a positive sense, so they give their partner.

    Abilities and qualities that they don’t really deserve. Because the difference. Is and I can’t remember who to research, but they talked about someone who who’s done the research on this, but essentially you have a choice between thinking of your partner and thinking negatively. The people who think negatively are to remember how it was phrased. They’re like nurturing betrayal, because what they’re doing is they’re going, you know, like, oh, look at him, sleep on the couch, you know, like Dorothy from accounts that we keep Derek from marketing this week or something.

    Look at Derek from marketing. I could be with him and I could be having fun this weekend. Or, you know, there’s this this other person is interested in me. And so the people that look outside of themselves and I like, well, look at him and look what I could be having outside. So then they tend to have a negative view of their partner. So the couples that last said what they’re really doing is setting up to betray their partner sooner or later, whereas the couples that are.

    Committed like this is, you know, this is. You may still be the same slob sitting on a sofa, but he’s had a hard week that he did for me if I was feeling tired and or give their partner the benefit of the doubt.

    In other words, because they love because they feel they can’t do better. Well. There comes a point where you can always look if you’re looking for maximization, there comes a point where you can always. Like you’d be chopping and changing from relationship to relationship and what’s really going to make you happy is not someone who’s free. Percent better looking point, five percent richer or kinder or whatever, but it’s somewhere where you can be there has to be this sense of like we’re in it together.

    So we are as a team. Now, if it is like the relationship, if they really are like. So. So my my thing is that there’s this free elements to a relationship that you is them. And there’s the interaction between you and. You either show up as enriching the other person or poisoning and they show up as enriching you or poisoning you. And I think where someone is poisoning, then that means it’s not you don’t want to be in the relationship.

    But if they’re showing up as enriching, then there might be someone who might be a step up. But somewhere you have to have that loyalty that you’re committed to it. Does that make sense? Yeah, I suppose you’re getting more and more happy and you sit there in between your life, then there’s no need to keep being the maximizer and keep looking.

    Yeah, I don’t think you should delude yourself, like if you’re a witch, which it does happen in toxic relationships with someone’s getting battered and bruised and whatever. And yet there you go. Yep, I love them. Yeah. But know once a year we take some nice holidays. We kind so. There is you shouldn’t delude yourself about someone who isn’t good for you, but, yeah, once you’ve committed, I think you have to dance with the one that brought you OK.

    So then the next part is about managing conflict. And so they talk about their being free, real parts to managing conflict as in. They say that should traditionally and typically men tend not to accept their wives influence. So this tends to be more men. And I think that goes back to traditional roles and maybe is changing. The dynamics of that are changing. But men are typically being told to be like you’re the head of the household and you should be in control.

    We should know. And sometimes men have difficulty in accepting a partner’s influence. And there’s also people to talk to about men like the difference between genders. We’re going to go into that more in a future meet up. And so there is about dialogue. It’s like I think every group has something about conflict resolution, communication. So it’s really about being able to talk about problems and of course, these specific processes in the specific ways that are more effective at being able to do that.

    And the last one is really interesting in terms of conflict, because we all think of conflict as being with our partner, but they talk about practicing, self-serving and self-serving is when you feel injured, not immediately lashing out. So this is where when I say like enriching and poisoning, some people lash out when they’ve had a bad day and they go, oh, but yeah, but you’re the one you’re the one closest to me. But so what that means is that you’ve done is that we all have the stress of life.

    We all have to navigate through life. And it’s the ability to navigate through life without making our hardships turn into something poisonous. For our partner. So self-serving, it’s about the ability to when you feel anxious, when you feel stressed, the ability to soothe yourself without lashing out and without blaming your partner for how you’re feeling, because sometimes we’re feeling down and then we look to blame anyone but ourselves. And so we blame our partner for how we’re feeling when it if we really look, it’s not necessarily them.

    OK, so then these two pillars on each side of this, which is. Commitment, so that and so one of the reasons we talked about in terms of the positive perspective, if you will, not committed to the relationship, someone is going to be committed to you. If you’re not committed, then someone is going to trust you. So there has to be some sense that you’re it as a team. And then the other pillar is trust and trust is built.

    When? Trust is built when we have roused and we see how the other person treats us and it’s built when we need support. And so the government’s key motto is that. When you have a baby, the world stops and the idea is their idea of this. Is that. When when your partner is hurting, that you drop that, drop everything to help them feel better. So that that that sort of plays into what Sondra’s we’re talking about dynamic, dynamic helps support so that you’re going to talk it through and you’re going to be there and you can obviously let things happen and someone might be facing redundancy.

    Someone might had a health challenge. You can’t necessarily solve the problem, but you can empathize and be there for that as much as you can. So it’s the idea that we’re where this relationship is safe from the world. OK, and so then you get the last couple, which is. So what it is, is like these are the foundations, and so then what it’s about is we come to a relationship because it enhances our life. And so their way of expressing it is making life dreams come true.

    And so what that means is that your you care about and you’re going to support your partner in achieving their dreams. And so this is really goes into the building love maps of knowing what he wants and needs, and then how can you support them in that? Because of the relationship, because ultimately we all have hopes and dreams and our relationships are part of that journey, and if the relationship gets in the way and we have to choose between this and this, and if there’s something that we’ve always really wanted to do, then the relationship probably is not going to survive, because even if you give up that there’s still going to be that pull, that this is the thing.

    This is what my life was meant to be. And you stop me there. And that’s going to be like this resentment between you. So. And then the last one is correct, shared meaning. And so this is like talking about rituals and so like, what does Christmas mean for you as a family? You is a relationship. What does birth, what birthdays mean? What does our anniversary mean? What does a holiday mean? How do we do like?

    These are the rituals of what we do. But it’s also the big roles in life are sex, money, children, career, domestic duties. Now, John Goodman said he he asked people like, what is money mean? And he said he stopped at one hundred different meanings of what money meant to people. So money meant caring, money meant power management control, money meant freedom, all of these things. And so this is, I think, why we have so many different words to express something that I think the gist of.

    We can probably come up with something that we all that meant all of it, but we all use different ones. So the shared meaning is about like, what’s your future vision? What do you want for your. So this plays into that. His group had quite strongly values is what do we value. What do we. What are we doing when we how do we spend our money, how do we spend our time, how do we spend our resources?

    For what value, and it’s working, but the arguments that we have are mostly about something that we’re on different spectrums, that money means caring to one person and it means control to someone else. And because we’ve never really refined that, we fight and we think we’re fighting about something that we spend money on. But actually we’re fighting about, what does that money mean? What what could we have bought? So that’s really the sound relationship house model.

    I just like to say I found that very insightful. I think it’s a great model. We have to agree because, well, you were saying I was just thinking of so many different scenarios and situations, I would just like I’m from my mind so that they put into words. So, yeah, yeah. I agree with a lot of that. Almost all of their basic. Now, I think the one element that they have, they don’t really address or it’s not really what they’re trying to address, but in order to do that, there needs to be a certain level of self awareness, self mastery and vulnerability and courage that all of the things that you’ve picked up on your hands up.

    Yeah, I tried to do some of this personal exploration with a partner, and it didn’t quite work because I didn’t have the foundations at the bottom in place. So maybe there was some parts lacking and then we weren’t actually able in some ways to create shared meaning and plan for making my dreams come true, because although I’m quite fourth with with the other party wasn’t. So, yeah, just just something to say that if you if you want to evolve in all these different things, a bit like Maslow’s, if you don’t have the foundations, it’s possible that you may not be able to achieve those higher levels of foundations.

    In what sense? Well, it’s a little bit embarrassing, but I suppose on a day to day level that sometimes we were bickering perhaps I mean, this is quite a while ago. But so it’s hard then to sit down and then have an open and frank, energetic conversation where you’re sharing your dreams and vulnerabilities and able to dig deep because you’ve been open with somebody who you argued about leaving the Jamile on the side the previous night before. It didn’t happen.

    But it’s an example.

    Yeah, yeah. And I think it is quite difficult for a couple to do alone as well. I’m planning I’m going to do workshops, and I think that the governments have to have a program as well, but I think it can be it can be difficult. It’s like lots of people. You see lots of people claiming to be everyone’s claiming to be the leading relationship expert. Not it’s interesting. John Goodman doesn’t claim to be that. But there are lots of people and I think.

    How can you say that you’re a relationship expert, because how can you have a relationship if you’re relationship expert, then you always have to be right? And how can I how can you have a relationship them, because it’s automatically unequal? So I think. I think he’s very I think in some I think we all need I think people are a closed system and a relationship is a closed system. And you need something outside of that stands back and talks about that as well, about having some third some like other friends or something that you can discuss things with, because otherwise it’s it’s like especially if you’re someone who’s introducing to partner and so you’re kind of giving it second hand.

    And without having like 40 years of understanding, of knowing that you’re not you haven’t got all the grasp of the things and you’re trying to explain it to someone without fully knowing it. And then they’re going, well, that doesn’t make sense now. And he also feels like to some people, if he’s not framed right, it’s going to feel like it’s something that you want to do and it’s been done to them, so. That’s why I think like retreat’s or something like that can give the basis.

    So it’s like the right context because it’s all about context, isn’t it? So like you say, like if you’re bickering, then you’re sort of starting from a different place and that becomes harder to have that discussion. I think it’s a really, really brilliant country, information you just shared with us. Well, thanks a lot. I really like the stuff about us having making a bit and that sometimes it’s not what we’re saying directly, it’s what we’re saying indirectly.

    And if that person’s turning towards you and they’re open and present, then they would pick that up as opposed to just being dismissive. I thought that was a really deep point and I really like the idea of the love thing and about again, it ties in with what I was saying about having values and priorities, because you don’t have the same hopes and dreams and fears that you can share and you’re moving towards them. How can really create a strong relationship?

    Because I think that’s what makes people come together isn’t the same likes, but the same priorities. So I think that’s a really good point. And I was just really interested when you said that trust comes from when you support somebody and when you said when you heard the world stops, I thought I was really powerful and deep.

    Yeah, that’s really that’s really the sum of the government. Yeah. Which I think is. Because because their model is quiet for three, six, nine, nine different elements that can be quite complex just by one of the reasons why I said can we break it down for free? But being able to have that motto, like if you have that that motto mantra that guides everything. One of the like the love maps, because the five love languages so popular and so widely used, I all right, Gary Chapman, who wrote it in one of his frustrations with it was that lots of people have done it.

    And if they go, they go, oh, my, my, my love is acts of service. I want you to do this. And he’s his whole thing. He said that people misunderstood it in that it wasn’t about this is what I need, but it’s about understanding people are different. So not just what you need, but also understanding the other person. Sarah.

    You’re muted. Yeah, it was just a very quick point of being somebody’s number one fan. Bitcoin itself will evolve from time to time. It’s going to happen. But if you’re that person’s number one fan, you know, they are the most incredible person to you like crap. But really, you would still see them as being you’re their number one fan. So, like, when you’re looking back. But the people that had successful relationships, that’s because they’re memories of their partner.

    Oh, she was so beautiful. He was so amazing. And they’ve got that. That’s how they view them. So if you view the person like that, you view them with those spectacles on. They are the most amazing person you even when they piss you off or whatever. I think that that’s really going to see you in good stead rather than not what you said, just setting yourself up for failure. If you’re looking at somebody and hating on them and not being happy with them, it’s not going to last forever.

    It’s just a matter of time, isn’t it? Yeah, it’s it’s I think that’s what we’re kind of looking for in a relationship, someone who looks at us like that. And none of us deserve it all of the time. No. And obviously, it’s not going to it’s not making excuses for someone that doesn’t deserve it generally. But if we decide that we’re in that relationship like Eric Eric from who says that love is a verb, love is not something we feel we love, something that we do.

    And why it’s so hard is because we have to put in that work. And so, like Helen Fisher talks about the romantic drive of being up to four years, somewhere between like six months and four years, that most people feel the lust, the initial novelty is love. But actually, it’s that is just. That is really kind of the honeymoon stage. But. Once you get past that, there’s going to be this is where like Staffy from accounts or from marketing, there’s always going to be someone else who looks attractive.

    There’s always going to be someone else who appears to have everything. And so over the course of if you want to have a sustainable and lasting relationship, there has to come a point where you decide this is the person. And if that’s the person, then you have to, like lots of people, talk about polyamory and, you know, like relationships now should be we should look at relationships differently. And I think that really is. Part of success in anything is about sacrifice.

    It’s about commitment. It’s about sticking. You know, like if you’re wanting to achieve anything, then a lot of it is work you like. If you want to be a black belt on a martial art, that means that you have to take like five to 10 years of dedicated effort, of doing the same thing that gets boring. And it’s like George Lennon talked about. That’s Mastery’s. The relentless focus on the one thing and getting better and better, and I think that is ultimately what it takes in a relationship, is the commitment to cutting off other options.

    And, yeah, sort of deluding yourself. Because there are always going to be attractive alternatives, but it’s the ability to sacrifice them for the lasting relationship. Thank you, Carl. Yeah, just something just kind of rattling around in my head, so. There’s talk here of fondness and admiration. I feel allow me just to elaborate a bit, but I would say is as a British culture, I mean, depending on where you are on the economic scale, but let’s just say in working class circles, there is an element of people chipping away at each other in a kind of joking sort of way and in a playful way for humility.

    But behind that would be love or caring and sharing. And what I’m trying to say is, is that are we as a society, if I may go abroad instead of kind of segregating, are we made that way today? Oh, hello, darling. How is your day and that sort of thing as a as opposed to a different way of being? Does that make any sense to you? It does, yes. So I think people often talk about Harville Hendrix and he’s the best selling book, but I’ve never been able to get into it.

    And part of it is because it comes they come across as I was on a workshop where they were on and I’ve seen talks and I’ve never got past the bit. That just seems like very Californian. That’s probably a generalization, but it just seems really American and sort of fake of where they go. You know, I am wonderful. You are wonderful. We are wonderful. And you should say that. And I think we’ll say something like that.

    It’s really just it just sounds like it’s like, say, these affirmations. And so I’ve never got past that. It always seems to be quite superficial. And I’m sure there’s lots of people there’s millions people who love their work. So I’m sure it has value, but it doesn’t speak to me and. So the reason I’m saying that is I think the banter and the I think you can you can have couples, they’re like, oh, they’ll get you.

    She’s not going again. But it’s the meaning beneath the words. And so it’s not necessarily you don’t necessarily have to dress it up if the other person knows what you mean. And so you can have that banter and have a derogatory name to that, if you know. That underneath it is a loving intention, whereas for me, you know, like I listen to some of this very sound, just sounds fine to me and I would look at that and be.

    I’d rather someone be honest. I mean, and so in that there is an honesty and a recognition that they’re not willing to be vulnerable. In the sense of they’re not willing to say say they say nice words, but I think they know like if they do know, like if if it’s meant.

    Genuinely and with genuine kindness, then I think they they know if that makes sense, but the claim that apart from the cheerleading element of what they’re doing, they’re saying and that forced, exuberant display of affection and all the rest of it, that it is trying to put it to the fore, that it’s almost like practicing and trying to reinforce it and make it become a part of of how you display your your feelings.

    So it’s so overt and it seems so practiced and rehearsed, it’s almost as though trying to tell you that this is exactly how you should be feeling by doing and saying that’s what it is that you’re you’re kind of cemented it into your into your your being.

    And the person is is the fondness and admiration aspect. What about you making the choice to be someone who you genuinely respect and admire, which again comes down to you, not who they are, but who you’re choosing to have a relationship with? And I think it relates to what Sarah was just saying about being someone’s biggest fan. If you’re a fan or somebody like Lady Gaga, you’re not bothered when her next song isn’t your favorite. You just you have a genuine admiration and respect.

    If it’s reciprocated, I would think. Suppose you’re a fan and you are doing all the right things, but the person doesn’t give you back much in return. What I ask you, Sandra, is would it be enough if, for example, I always remembered your birthday? I would always be on time when I was there, I’d say I’d be there to protect you on a daily basis. I just go about my life and I don’t necessarily.

    How are you? Oh, let’s have a hug and all that stuff I’m just talking about. Like, if I do and this is maybe I’m going the duty of love, that actual doing of love is not enough or is that not enough? And maybe what I’m. Actually, the birthday is it’s for me if you acknowledge the birthday is not what you give me on the birthday, that’s usually significant. Because there are people who will get you the same thing, know, it’s like having your secretary write in the diary and get you.

    That’s just totally impersonal. Can that be so to me? That doesn’t show me that you love me. That just shows me that you’ve got an efficient secretary and you’ve got money to buy me something that you think can keep me OK. So that doesn’t work. But if you on a continuous basis can show me that you appreciate me and it’s not just love it, love, love it, it can be just a hand on a shoulder in person.

    It doesn’t have to be extravagant things. It’s just in a way that your knowledge in my presence and you like that I am in your space, you want me there and you may be reading a book. We don’t see anything for hours. You may just get up and you’re going to make a cup of tea and you ask me if I want one and I will not because my head is in my book or on my computer screen. But if you are, you are appreciative of my being in your space and you are thinking about me and vice versa.

    So to me it’s just little things not being continuous. Oh, darling, sweetheart, I love you. I love you. I love you. You are my everything. I don’t want to hear that every day. After a while I’m going to say, what are you up to where you are, you know, like this. This is too much country. You’re doing this. I cannot stop the number one fan. What I mean is not that it’s not a cheerleader with the pom pom.

    It’s like, yeah, it’s nice to say yeah. Every now and then I love you or your wonderful or whatever you love about us. And it’s not that actual display, it’s that, you know, that person’s always going to come back and tell you the truth. That person, if they in a room with ten people, they’re not going to be putting you down and speaking about you. And if anybody says anything about you, they’re going to come running back.

    And, you know, that person’s always got your back in that sense. Even if you’re angry and pissed off with them, they’re not going to go about your business to people and run you down or you’re not going to be worried in that way because, you know, when it comes down to the crunch, they have got you they’ve got your back number one fan.

    Yeah. So that’s that’s where you have trust. You know that they’re always going to be there. Yeah.

    And it could be just it doesn’t need to be all with words and displays. It couldn’t just be when you’re when you’re in the shit they’ll all if you need any, you know, and obviously you’re doing the same, but it’s not one sided. It’s having security in your relationship.

    That’s Yeah. Yeah. You just know because they’ve proved it, they’ve shown you they’re not backstabbing you and talking about you or putting you down a lot as it could go a bit too far. You know, it’s it’s just, you know, they respect you and they love you and nobody else is going to be able to get in between that because you feel it, because that person’s loyal to you. Working as a team? Yeah, yeah. But if you’re looking and thinking, I look, you know, if you’re looking at them and you’re in them and you’re building all these things up in your head, it’s not going to get anywhere, is it?

    Because you don’t expect you’re not their number one fan? You don’t really think that much of them. Yeah. You know, so you’re going to be gone, aren’t you? Are you’re going to be cheating or are you just going to be taking advantage? Was Janice for you? I was going to say, I think, how would you say you didn’t want to do it all the time or was it not enough? I think it’s it’s it doesn’t have to be all the time.

    It’s just consistency. It doesn’t have to be all the time. It’s just that these little things every now and again. And I think when you the longer you’ve been with someone, you don’t necessarily expect it so often. You know, you can go for what you can go for a while with none and then some positive little, you know, doing nice things. It’s almost like when you sit about a bank account before, if they’ve got loads in the bank account, they’ve done lots of good things before.

    Then if there’s a point where they’re not doing anything good because they’re really stressed, you’re kind of okay because there’s all this in the bank and then all of a sudden the consistency comes back. And and I think if it if the ground works, they’re like you like the foundations, then the relationship can survive those gaps for a while. So it doesn’t have to be like, you know, over the top. Great big things all the time, every day.

    So I don’t think you said, oh, I think I’m doing it wrong. It’s not necessary that it’s the consistency and that then it returns. If there’s like a bit of a gap, then it returns.

    You say, oh, that’s yeah, I think consistency is really important in that that’s what develops trust because that’s how you know who someone is. Yeah.

    Because then you can put it down to something being not quite right rather than the relationship being overall. Yeah.

    And and also I think this is where like the love match is really important because it’s individual, because some people will one of us will never fade because that means that they there’s some people it won’t matter so much to. So it’s understanding what your partner, what they’re reading into, what you do. And yes, that’s where you understanding the people at what you define trust, as you said earlier on, that when somebody supports you and just now you said consistency.

    OK, so trust is confidence that someone. Is confidence that you can rely on someone, so it’s that they have their back, your back is that they won’t hurt you. So there’s different elements to trust because there’s trusting someone won’t hurt you. There’s trusting someone cares about you. There’s trusting that someone Montanti is trusting that someone won’t betray you, trusting that someone won’t abandon you. So trust is a bit like confidence and trust is, in a sense, confidence that someone won’t do something.

    So it’s just based on past experience, which comes down to consistency.

    Yeah, because what we judge, like the best judge of future behavior, is past behavior. So we have to we judge based on what we think someone’s motives are, based on what they’ve done in the past, based on how they react to things. So trust is really. If someone’s consistent, you tend to trust them, if they’re inconsistent. You don’t know how to predict what they’re going to do. If someone’s one week down the next, you never really know where you’re going to be.

    And so you don’t trust them. Does that make sense? Yes. It’s about predictability, but based on the consistent past behavior which you’re projecting into the future.

    Yes. Yeah, really, you get a sense of someone and then you get a sense of how they’re going to react.

    Yeah, so it’s it could be trusting a positive or negative way, because if they’ve let you down, then you’ll be able to predict that they’ll do that again, which is to say, you can trust that they’ll let you down again.

    Yeah. Yeah. So you will. Yes. So there’s going to be a sense that you mistrust them and. So it’s it’s like that trust exercise isn’t a trust exercise where you fall back into someone’s arms, and if you think that sometimes they may not be there, you’re not going to trust them.

    But if you know that every time they’re going to be there to catch you, then you trust them or you about going back to the point that you made earlier, this whole notion of what I do for your birthday. You know, if it’s enough or whatever, to me, a true sign of being connected with another person is really understanding what. That what they really appreciate and in some instances, it has nothing to do with money. If you take me out and drive me up into the mountains or to the to the beach and we sit down and there is no money and nothing involved, but you just take me somewhere like that.

    That would be the best birthday for me. And in other words, it doesn’t have to be I don’t really understand what I love, that’s the point I’m getting at.

    I know, you know, it’s being connected to that person. You would know that about me because you’re connected to how I feel and you see the things that I how I respond, like my plans behind me. They’re not mine. But those plans, I, I will kill you for them because I love guns. And if you bought me an orchid it could be five pounds. I would just love you. It would be the best present ever.

    So I’d prefer you did that instead of killing me. But if you want to I mean. Yeah, you did. You know, I’ve read what you said really stuck with me. It is so interesting because you were saying about that you don’t necessarily have to show an overt sense that the small signs of you enjoy that person in your space, you acknowledge them in their presence. I’ve seen relationships go by the wayside because people bury their head in devices, laptops, cell phones, and that is non presence.

    And even though you are there, this whole thing of being present is a real something. And what I was pointing to, I wasn’t saying I remembered your birthday was more sense of due to Juta for love compared to kind of romantic notion of engagement that was really trying to get to. But thank you also for the advice, buying flowers and small things. And that’s like little notes and stuff. And I got to what Mr.. Don’t save it all for the grand gesture once the year three hundred and sixty four other days to cover.

    I used to have a boyfriend every time he left my home. All that with him. When I’d come back, I’d find a note that he’d written for me that I didn’t know about the age I ever put in my bag or put on my TV or list somewhere. So whenever I left it time, I’d spent time with him, I’d come back and that would be there. And I thought that was really, really sweet. So kind of practice your handwriting.

    Yeah, we like those things.

    I think my point about the president, I think that’s really powerful. And what you said, you see so many young couples that sit beside each other on the bus, they buy from their smartphones. And it’s just asking someone to actually be present because, of course, it is before the definition of prison is your presence. That’s a gift. Is that’s what you’re giving someone is not the object, but your presence. So when you speak of somebody making a note or giving you some sort of gift, what they’re telling you is I was thinking of you.

    You were present. Even though I’m not here with you, you are in my my thoughts. So that’s what presence is. It’s the ultimate gift. So if somebody is present with you, even though they’re physically it’s worthless, you and I know what gives you pleasure.

    I know what you’re about. I understand your makeup. And to me, if you’re not in tune with that person, you will discover that about the other person.

    I guess I’m also trying to communicate that I felt that my. Sense of duty and love, always thinking of planning, doing things like that. It wasn’t quite enough and I am alone in the duties. Not enough. You have to. There’s more work to it, perhaps. But I still felt that a lot of what I did was underestimated or undermined or not not valued enough, but against your will. Do you feel this pressure you’re putting on yourself?

    No, but I don’t I’m not saying it is. It just sounds like you’re describing it. It just sounds like you’re doing what you feel you should do, not what they actually expected of you. It’s just someone in a marriage, and she complains she’s they’re still together, they’ve been together for over 20 years. And every time that we’re out and she’s away from him for five minutes, all she talks about is how she doesn’t feel loved in her relationship.

    And he said to her, well, I like the washing machine.

    And I think also that you’ve got to be careful about the making, the the the organized gestures of affection, where you have to do the planning and the choreography to make it right. There is little room for enjoyment and spontaneity in that because you are forever it’s organized and a proper relationship should be free flowing in some respects. That’s when you see the real person. When you get you know, you let your hair down, you just don’t do anything.

    It’s not planned to the hilt all the time because then you should be tired after a while. My goodness gracious. How much planning can one man do you know this over the weekend rehearsal for the birthday. This this is the anniversary. Oh my goodness gracious. The birthday, whatever. That’s too much planning. There needs to be time to just. You know, I think if you look at cars, you can only engineer a car to last for so long.

    If a car is really badly built, the friction will mean that the car will break quickly. But you can’t engineer it perfectly. So they always last. And so if you look at relationships in the same way, you can engineer a relationship to last. You can engineer it so badly that there’s so much friction. Right. But you can’t make a relationship that isn’t going to work. And ultimately, it comes down to you, the right person, the right context, right environment.

    And if you have that, it’s not necessarily about individual things that you do. It’s just the general dynamics. So they can they can make someone a little bit happier, but that little bit happier isn’t going to make the relationship last forever. But also, if one person is doing all of the planning and organizing, that other person becomes a passive bystander in that relationship and comes to expect and not necessarily do not necessarily put themselves out.

    It’s also a sense of that. It can be where someone feels when people get into relationships. Sometimes there’s a feeling of inequality. Sometimes there’s a feeling like I’ve got someone who’s who’s better than I expected and the feeling like I’ve not been good enough and having to be better. And so that can be one of the ways that that whole dynamic plays out and it levels because what people superficially look like is what they really are five years in. And so what you feel you like, who you thought you were getting into relationship isn’t necessarily who you were.

    So you’ve been very patient.

    I think, Sandra, go through this point as well. Need, you know, like we don’t need to be perfect. It’s just so much this perfectly honest men. Men want to be perfect. Well, guess what? Who knows. It’s perfect what you do. It’s only yourself. Nobody else can know. And you take out that old come expectation. You can enjoy whatever you do. You need the first two points. And after whatever flaw with that, enjoy the moment.

    I used to have Planas a car seat as well. I used to plan everything and was the outcome now make me angry, didn’t kill as I wanted. What’s happened actually just grew up. Doesn’t work, need to change. Because what that says to me is that you get caught up in the thing itself and you’ve forgotten the relationship that’s become secondary to the performance. What the man’s got this associate the day they expecting to be there. Obviously the top, that’s that’s what they kind of teaching, you know, and that’s what actually big demands is.

    Also, I remember Allan saying a couple of months ago about feeling the pressure of always being a joke on a day. And there is something in dating dynamics and. In. The whole relationship model, that mentality that we have that feels like someone has to perform. Sarah, your hand up. Is that still from last night’s nothing? OK, sorry, Betty. OK, well, I don’t know if this is worth throwing into the mix, but it’s an interesting thing I’ve noticed as well the.

    Sometimes it depends on your mind, state, it’s actually slows things down a bit and come back to that instead of said that just you present with somebody even so completely different worlds and don’t have that much in common, you can get some sort of form of bonds that way because you were in bed with that person and just not that can happen.

    Yes, a good point because you can’t connect. And this connection is about death of presence. OK, well, thank you for being here and sharing your perspectives and. Developing our relationship knowledge. So next week, we’ve got a forgotten we’ve got next week, even though I just put it up today. Well, we have another one next week and something. Sorry. Oh, yes, chemistry and compatibility. Yes. Yes. So we’ll be working that out.

    Next week, this has been wonderful. I feel like we could discuss it all night.

    Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s a shame that we’re stuck in a chatroom room or if we had we’re able to I think we would be able to build out a model and develop not just the qualities, but how they interrelate.

    What were your three words then? The are the ideal moral integrity, respect and kindness, especially on that, because they came from integrity. You have so they’re like the models that you you bring to the relationship. If you I think we went through this before in relationship heaven and hell. Where if you if you show up with integrity. You create a trust in the right environment. And respect in the sense of being really empathic and understanding them in the sense of knowing and love maps and really that’s who they are matters, which then develops communication and kindness.

    Anything to read for next week? Um, no, uh, no, I haven’t really, really not that. But it now it’s not based on any particular book or anything. No, I think we’ll just we’ll just come, you know. I think so. I think what we’re really looking at we talked about attraction. And I think chemistry is a part of that. And compatibility is chemistry is love. Chemistry is part of attraction and compatibility is part of the long term maintenance of that relationship.

    So, yeah, she’s pretty. That’s to think about. And then we’ll we’ll work out. So, I mean, what to think about is what, Chris, what’s the chemistry? So if you were looking at chemical chemicals, are you looking at this chemical in this chemical, have this reaction? So what are the factors in personality and people that create that different response? So who are people that you respond to? Well, who people respond to you not so well and compatability then is.

    What do you need to support, you want equality in order to feel trust, in order to feel supported. What do you need from someone? So I think there the elements of chemistry, compatability. Kash. OK, well, thank you, everyone. Have a great week. I guess not just factual.

    I think your.

    Transcript

    Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. Tonight, we're here for the the government shutdown relationship House model that we're going to discuss. So you've just been in the breakout room talking about what you think your past relationships may have needed or what they were missing and what would have made them work if they were meant to work. Does anyone does anyone have any insights or thoughts to share based on.

    That discussion. I have a nice term that came up in my group not needing to have a fair partnership, a sense of a fair partnership, but I like that term needing to have or not need.

    Yeah, that's that's that's that's a shortfall in a relationship, not having one. But that's what they would love to have. So that's a shortcoming. Not having one. OK, that's a good one. Anyone else stand standing up for a balanced relationship at the same time, standing up, great defending. Now, I'm struggling to remember if Rosa or Rosa.

    Yes, so we agreed with the girls that it was communication and trust and we talked about how. Sometimes taking a bit longer to get to know the person is a bit more worth it so that you get that kind of connection with them and then you get more communication and more trust and more openness to me personally. What that was, what locked in all of my past relationships was the communication and trust. And like I mentioned last week, there was this lack of vulnerability from the other side, like I couldn't trust the person because they weren't vulnerable with me.

    So it was just a one way street, really.

    OK, OK. Any any other qualities, so attributes of authenticity, honesty. Being present and also we have communication. OK, I come validation. OK, compatability. We cannot feel sorry. Another one is not knowing what we need, what we want.

    OK, self-awareness. Yeah. Within Rispoli, respectful boundaries, boundaries. Are not getting not not getting physical too soon. So, like, say, if you had a date in plan where you didn't have physical contact to say like eight dates or whatever, you might decide that allows you to see the person as they really are and not get caught up in all the chemistry, which is wonderful. But if you're OK, it's almost like a drug. You know, you can get hooked and she's free and not really see what you've got.

    Do you think that is just going to build up the chemistry and delay it? Or do you think that's going to be a way around that? I think if you give yourself time to see where what the person is actually about and they're a decent human being, there's nothing wrong with me and a decent human being and that being chemistry. But if there's just chemistry, there's no compatibility that is doomed. I think that's my personal experience and opinion. There's gotta be something more.

    It's okay to have the physical and the the connection and the compatibility. Ideally, you're not going to marry someone you don't find you don't find attractive.

    Are you OK? And we had in our group the trying to avoid the conflict. Avoid conflict. By pleasing or just simply avoiding? OK. I made suggestions there, got Carol. Sorry about that. Yeah, I just made the suggestion that it seems like you can only really meet and connect with somebody to the level that they've done that with themselves. So how well they know themselves, how developed they are is the depth that you can merge with them.

    Mm hmm. I think it comes down to that. I think I can't remember who it was that you talked about being vulnerability, the vulnerability. And that's quite interesting, because when you do find someone who is willing to go further, more vulnerable than you. Is that going to feel threatening because there's a point where all of us have where we feel comfortable and a lot of people say that they want a lot of communication and vulnerability, but it becomes then threatening when someone does go to that level, because then you find the limits of your own readiness to go to the thing.

    And I think you're really spot on that role. But I think that's why it's important not to share vulnerability, see too soon. So you say if you went on a date for the second time with somebody and they started opening up about their life, you would think that was a red flag straight away. But if they said the same thing on the 10th day, it would be appropriate. May be just about the pace of the getting to know someone not doing it too quickly, just slowing everything down.

    Yeah, it's it's it's not what you do. It's the context in which you do it. The context is all important.

    And you have to be careful about cultural norms, though. If you're an American, you will open up immediately. You will start to get that's true. Culturally, they're more open. So you may find that a little bit overwhelming.

    But, you know, a pretty open it's wonderful, isn't it, that that sort of emotional openness. I lived in America for five years and that is really beautiful in other cultures like Colombia, and they're very gregarious and that's beautiful. But what I'm trying to say is if you start sort of telling someone all your emotional history that whatever culture you're in, that is kind of like, hang on a minute, that's a bit too much in there.

    No, that's the kind of if you are talking to somebody who is of the same culture, it may be normal for both of them. You may think it's not the done thing, but that's normal for them. But I think it's more if it's two people from two different cultures, how do you make that happy meeting that happy half halfway point where you can both work with the differences between you? I think can I present a different view, please?

    I believe if he's not the right person for you or you are not the right person for him or her.

    Sorry, then. We are not willing to go that far to be vulnerable and open and transparent. Good poing, good polling, poorly in polling. I think that's the difficulty I've had in past relationships, actually, and not trying to communicate people all the time and trying to conflate resolve and not being met halfway. I guess they're not willing to be vulnerable or face their issues or be honest with themselves and with me. Yeah, and I guess it just depends how resolved they are within themselves, really.

    I think I think everyone everyone has a level that they're willing to open up to and can connect to. And one of the problems that people have when they are dating or in a relationship, and then there's all these kind of tricks and techniques and the rules and all of these things. And what they do is they essentially mask who you are. So the goal isn't to make a relationship last with someone. The goal is to get the relationship that you want.

    And so the more quicker you can get to who someone is, the quicker you can work out that in Winstone relationship, you shouldn't be. I need to make this work. It should be. Can it work with this person? Yeah.

    Mean spot on. You just hit the nail on the head. And so the quicker that you can get to that and then the less emotional thing there is if it doesn't, if they're not the right person. So yeah, it's really just about finding the level that you can connect someone with. That they allow you to and you are comfortable with them. Sometimes it's just simply the person got so much trauma, why it's not even aware it's having these issues, so it's not really not honest with itself, it just simply never reached that crucial level.

    It's just been always busy, busy, and that's our these time issues, we try to be busy and we try to solve a lot of problems that should be first ourselves, but we should be every single day for ourselves, like so many great people does. First two, three hours. It should be yours, not even your partner, not even anybody else. It should be your wake up early, do your three hours for yourselves. Then after go and do the other stuff.

    Yeah, it's easy to lose yourself in a relationship, and so many people do lose themselves in trying to be the person to please or the person that keeps the relationship going. OK, so we've we've got quite we've got quite a few ideas so that everyone still confident they have a good grasp of their feeling and understanding. So when I saw when I first read it, I used to just write stuff for us to talk a lot. And so if he came here expecting to listen, to talk, then that's not what we want.

    We're going to do. This is about being engaged and everyone sharing their views that we will come away with something better than any one of us had to start with. Now, what I want to do now is, is an exercise and we're going to work in teams of about four or five in breakout rooms. And what I'd like you to do is think up if you had to. And I need to, because you've been assigned the task of making a model, the best model you can come up with in 20 minutes as a group for how to make your relationship work.

    AK. Does that make sense? We say that again, please. Sorry. So we're going to work in groups in four or five in the breakout room and the idea is to take what is essential for building a relationship model. So I don't know if you can see the whole thing. I've put it up as a virtual background of this is the Gutman's relationship model. So what I'd like you to do before we go through it and talk about it, I'd like you to think about what in your view as a group, would it take to make a relationship work?

    So the government have been working on this like 40 years, but you've got 20 minutes. But just to come up with the best idea you have. And then so then we can we can compare that against the governments. OK, so we've got someone who wanted to do a kind of regulars know how things work in each group. If someone can take notes to be the spokesman and write down the model and draw in whatever, whatever kind of model seems to make sense.

    OK. Is that volunteering better? Yes. If it starts with self-knowledge, self awareness, knowing the self and one word values. So who you are and what you want in life next, honestly communicate honestly with your partner or prospective partner. This is driven by vulnerability, which in turn brings about trust and authenticity is at the center of it. So we had millions of words like tolerance and patience and empathy and understanding, and we spoke about willingness to invest in a relationship and having an emotional bank account and how we need to be willing to create a balance.

    But at the heart of it all really was honesty, starting with honesty to self Monkeybone. What you want and an honest. It's OK, yeah, that's those kids. Thank you. Does anyone else from that group who wants to do anything else in. Before we move on. OK, which group thinks that? So tonight we haven't got Irial here, so it's not going to be no bribery with apple crumble. So which group, just on the merits of the work that they've done, thinks that they have a better model or.

    Or is that sent out? Or who has an alternative model, is that Janosz? Yeah, we actually find a couple of good points. One of them was the courage. To be bold and to do the things like. Also, the self reflect, we said, which is related more further to understanding the healing from the traumas, how to even do that, to be aware about. Dialogue to resolve the problems. Rather than just its proper listin and really understanding and the space to giving for each other, especially when the trauma will trigger.

    And we also said, so don't try to help others without being asked to help, because by that you actually not giving trust, you actually taking out the ability to learn how to solve that problem in the future. And by like that, it's the person can feel it in control, and they're also the ones who are aware of the common trauma triangle of. Victim, victim, Villone, and remember the other one, but yeah, becomes, you know, that kind of trauma of Survivor and saved.

    Could I ask what was the coverage needed for? So even to try to solve the problems, you know, for anything because solved, then we know what to do. But you actually have to put your ass there to do it. You have to be show up. And for that, you need a lot of courage. It's not just self confidence. That's not enough. You have to go there and do it. You have to go there and you have to be there and just the least.

    And that's a courage. It's Bradley Brown, really nice talking about that in Netflix, you can find it's really nice. Because to me, the word courage says that you're willing to make the effort and to be willing to make the effort to me speaks of having that value, because I think that was somebody who you don't value, not willing to put in that effort.

    You need courage to trust Jesus and to give yourself completely. OK, is anyone else from Genesis greet anyone else kind of thing to say? OK, which says it is two more groups within the. He would like to talk from one of the others. I'm doing my good Irene and Matthews Group. OK, OK, OK.

    We came up with the idea of building a committed team, so it's two individuals working together to build a committed team which has a sense of fun and enjoys physical and emotional intimacy. Yeah, I can't even read my own handwriting. Sorry.

    And contributing to that, uh, the following things, um, authenticity which was mentioned before.

    Commitment. Conflict resolution and learning. Effective, these two separate things, conflict resolution and learning and yeah, and learning as in how to learn in conflict, learning, learning from the experience, from the conflict and the resolution thereof.

    Right. Effective communication, of course, that is all tied into that, but separate and apart from that as well, learning to ask for what you want. Being able to ask you, which I think also ties in with courage. Can create encouraging and appreciating individual growth. OK, and, of course, values always fit into that. And providing dynamic support. Dynamic, yeah, it way the changes it also one supports and the other supports. Yeah, yeah.

    And it may vary throughout, OK.

    You for the biggest list, we like to talk. OK, one more group whose was the last group? Nicole. And so, yeah, we had our analysis just about managed to get something together, but we're talking first, we reckon it should be based on clear boundaries. About what both parties want, what you look for, what your morals and values are. Equals basically going from a place of equality with a partner, authenticity, which is really important and and with that we discuss that pertaining to autonomy as well.

    So having your own things going on, your own interests, a little bit of introspection, I guess, and honesty. I mean, that's a given. And then we were feeling after this sort of communication and conflict resolution, so it with a bit of emotional intelligence, it's got to be based on respect. And you to be able to communicate and resolve your issues. I've got to be vulnerable with each other. And then we're feeling like shared humor is also important and teamwork, like Sandra was just talking about anyone else from the group mission.

    And it's only two more to be Sandra's group type patient, loving, caring. OK. OK, so. I think now if we go quick and give you three minutes, same groups to come up with three. So amalgamates amalgamate, which is more important, Kifri, when I did this, I made like this model based on my ideas and then I figured out what is that the core of the all? Because it's easy to remember free. And it's interesting that only one of them is turned up.

    Okay, so back in the same breakout rooms click fire free. And you see, you just need to really quickly agree amongst yourself, like I think or you assign authenticity and autonomy can probably be merged. And then we'll come back in three minutes for just free. Free for each. So quickly, what are the three from each group? Compatibility, authenticity, interdependence. We found this difficult to narrow down, we went with communication, conflict resolution, respect, and then we went to show on the last one was sort of bounced around empathy and love.

    But I think authenticity is quite important as well.

    OK. It's really hard to do in the short time and the other two groups. One of them was the authenticity aswell. We said all the communication to the solving problems. And the third one was a little bit like how we could describe. I believe I can explain. So you can explain. OK, I'll add something, Sidrah Mutual Attraction's. I guess you can say compatability, so which includes physical attractions, mental attraction, emotional attraction, spiritual attraction.

    A case different, like all three levels of attraction. Yeah, or more. Okay. Physical, mental, intellectual and same as mental, but emotional and spiritual. OK. And Kate and Betty. British group Honesty Values and Curtaining Katamon.

    AK. OK, so that's interesting. So authenticity is showing up. It's strange how in a group how much variety there is, and I think one of that one of the reasons for that is that words are very difficult. Words that I say would mean something slightly different to you. And so is really getting to the definitions of that. OK, so now I'm going to run through the government's model. So that the government said John Gottman started work research on relationships about 40 years ago, saying that he he had no idea how to have a relationship.

    He had no idea about them. And really, he is someone very small, numbers driven, statistics driven. So he himan Bob Levinson just did this research and I didn't intervene. They didn't do anything. They just like the main research is in what they call a love lab. So they have like this flat where a couple will come in as if it's like an Airbnb for a weekend and they'll just be there as if they're away for a weekend.

    And there's cameras all around the lab, the couple of wired up. So it's taking all their senses, you know, like heart rate, skin, all of these things you get in physiological states and they just watch them and they just analyze the video and they looked at how they talk to each other. I looked at how they disagreed. And interim government claims that he can think he said ninety seven percent. He can claim who's going to which relationships are going to last and which aren't.

    Primarily on how they argue it's not if they are arguing isn't the sign of a problem, it's how you argue. So to set this up first by because what we've done so said basically most of what I've learned on relationships is based on the comments and then I've looked at so the governments that goal. So they differ from someone like Hovell Hendriks, whose goal is to be very idealistic. And they have a story that relationships are part of the journey.

    And so it's a bit of a leap. It's not maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but it's not provable. Whereas the governments are very much only work on provable. And he's spoken that their goal is to help couples and be able to have a pastry together. It's not to be anything more than that. It's not any great spiritual or that it's just to be able to have a functioning relationship. So that's where they came from. Now, John Gottman for 20 years, never had any theories.

    He had lots of research data, but he never intervened, never did anything. And it was only when he met his now wife and she'd been working as a therapist. And she was deeply and as a as a therapist. And she was able to type the data and build a story from it and say from that story, they now have the shared relationship model, that they have something that they can use as a basis for therapy. So. So let me go through the the the model, so essentially starts with building love maps.

    Now, probably the best selling relationship book is the Five Love Languages and five languages. Just a very broad generalization of some people like physical affection. Some people like words, words of affirmation. Some people like acts of service. Some people like presence. And some people like physical touch. So what that's generally that points us to is people receive and love different differently. But the idea of the Gutman's love maps is much deeper than that. That is, you understand what someone's life is.

    Someone's life is built out of hopes and dreams and fears, and it's who's important to them. What is their work mattered to them? What is this? This event meaning their life. So it's understanding more and more what what your partner. What's important to them? So. What we've what we've come up with, like in my models and in your models, is most of what we've come up with is what individuals need to come. Now, the government had talked a lot about relationships, about this is how you build a relationship.

    So it's quite technical. And what I think it misses is it misses all the ingredients that we've talked about that someone has to have that qualifies them to have this relationship. So you can say do this relationship, but if you don't have the self-awareness, if you don't have the honesty, the communication, the vulnerability, all of those things, you're not going to do this. So this is really about building love maps is really about deep empathy, really caring and listening and understanding what's going on in your partner's life.

    So the next level is to share fondness and admiration and one of the things that they say that they can distinguish between couples who are having a hard time, who are you can break through that and couples that can't is that they talk to them about how did you meet? And the couples that will go back, oh, well, you know, she was she was the most beautiful woman and we met and we just had this great time and and he was so charming and he was the couples that have that fond memories.

    And I can see good in their in their partner have the ability to then go back and heal because they still have something positive, whereas couples that they go, I don't know why I stuck with him. He was just he was just a miserable git and he was just there. And I was feeling like those couples, they don't have that fondness and admiration since they don't have that base to really go back to. So they talk a lot about bids now, a bid is sometimes like you want your partner's attention and you might talk about something that's going on, you might point something out, and you're not really talking about that, but you're using that as a device to get their attention and to open a dialogue.

    So couples that do that and the other person doesn't pick up on it are a couples that don't last because one is always making a bid. And then the others. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, like a couple, what you say makes no sense. And she's off again, you know, that kind of not paying respect to them, whereas the couples that are not taking on face value. But I'm responding in the unspoken communication of what they've said.

    So that's the other explicit communication of isn't it a nice day? And then the unsaid and implicit of I'm wanting to connect to you. So the ones that respond to that, that which they they call turning towards instead of turning away. And so when they talk about a positive perspective and. This is generally thinking of your partner, so there's research that shows. That pop that couples that last are deluded in a positive sense, so they give their partner.

    Abilities and qualities that they don't really deserve. Because the difference. Is and I can't remember who to research, but they talked about someone who who's done the research on this, but essentially you have a choice between thinking of your partner and thinking negatively. The people who think negatively are to remember how it was phrased. They're like nurturing betrayal, because what they're doing is they're going, you know, like, oh, look at him, sleep on the couch, you know, like Dorothy from accounts that we keep Derek from marketing this week or something.

    Look at Derek from marketing. I could be with him and I could be having fun this weekend. Or, you know, there's this this other person is interested in me. And so the people that look outside of themselves and I like, well, look at him and look what I could be having outside. So then they tend to have a negative view of their partner. So the couples that last said what they're really doing is setting up to betray their partner sooner or later, whereas the couples that are.

    Committed like this is, you know, this is. You may still be the same slob sitting on a sofa, but he's had a hard week that he did for me if I was feeling tired and or give their partner the benefit of the doubt.

    In other words, because they love because they feel they can't do better. Well. There comes a point where you can always look if you're looking for maximization, there comes a point where you can always. Like you'd be chopping and changing from relationship to relationship and what's really going to make you happy is not someone who's free. Percent better looking point, five percent richer or kinder or whatever, but it's somewhere where you can be there has to be this sense of like we're in it together.

    So we are as a team. Now, if it is like the relationship, if they really are like. So. So my my thing is that there's this free elements to a relationship that you is them. And there's the interaction between you and. You either show up as enriching the other person or poisoning and they show up as enriching you or poisoning you. And I think where someone is poisoning, then that means it's not you don't want to be in the relationship.

    But if they're showing up as enriching, then there might be someone who might be a step up. But somewhere you have to have that loyalty that you're committed to it. Does that make sense? Yeah, I suppose you're getting more and more happy and you sit there in between your life, then there's no need to keep being the maximizer and keep looking.

    Yeah, I don't think you should delude yourself, like if you're a witch, which it does happen in toxic relationships with someone's getting battered and bruised and whatever. And yet there you go. Yep, I love them. Yeah. But know once a year we take some nice holidays. We kind so. There is you shouldn't delude yourself about someone who isn't good for you, but, yeah, once you've committed, I think you have to dance with the one that brought you OK.

    So then the next part is about managing conflict. And so they talk about their being free, real parts to managing conflict as in. They say that should traditionally and typically men tend not to accept their wives influence. So this tends to be more men. And I think that goes back to traditional roles and maybe is changing. The dynamics of that are changing. But men are typically being told to be like you're the head of the household and you should be in control.

    We should know. And sometimes men have difficulty in accepting a partner's influence. And there's also people to talk to about men like the difference between genders. We're going to go into that more in a future meet up. And so there is about dialogue. It's like I think every group has something about conflict resolution, communication. So it's really about being able to talk about problems and of course, these specific processes in the specific ways that are more effective at being able to do that.

    And the last one is really interesting in terms of conflict, because we all think of conflict as being with our partner, but they talk about practicing, self-serving and self-serving is when you feel injured, not immediately lashing out. So this is where when I say like enriching and poisoning, some people lash out when they've had a bad day and they go, oh, but yeah, but you're the one you're the one closest to me. But so what that means is that you've done is that we all have the stress of life.

    We all have to navigate through life. And it's the ability to navigate through life without making our hardships turn into something poisonous. For our partner. So self-serving, it's about the ability to when you feel anxious, when you feel stressed, the ability to soothe yourself without lashing out and without blaming your partner for how you're feeling, because sometimes we're feeling down and then we look to blame anyone but ourselves. And so we blame our partner for how we're feeling when it if we really look, it's not necessarily them.

    OK, so then these two pillars on each side of this, which is. Commitment, so that and so one of the reasons we talked about in terms of the positive perspective, if you will, not committed to the relationship, someone is going to be committed to you. If you're not committed, then someone is going to trust you. So there has to be some sense that you're it as a team. And then the other pillar is trust and trust is built.

    When? Trust is built when we have roused and we see how the other person treats us and it's built when we need support. And so the government's key motto is that. When you have a baby, the world stops and the idea is their idea of this. Is that. When when your partner is hurting, that you drop that, drop everything to help them feel better. So that that that sort of plays into what Sondra's we're talking about dynamic, dynamic helps support so that you're going to talk it through and you're going to be there and you can obviously let things happen and someone might be facing redundancy.

    Someone might had a health challenge. You can't necessarily solve the problem, but you can empathize and be there for that as much as you can. So it's the idea that we're where this relationship is safe from the world. OK, and so then you get the last couple, which is. So what it is, is like these are the foundations, and so then what it's about is we come to a relationship because it enhances our life. And so their way of expressing it is making life dreams come true.

    And so what that means is that your you care about and you're going to support your partner in achieving their dreams. And so this is really goes into the building love maps of knowing what he wants and needs, and then how can you support them in that? Because of the relationship, because ultimately we all have hopes and dreams and our relationships are part of that journey, and if the relationship gets in the way and we have to choose between this and this, and if there's something that we've always really wanted to do, then the relationship probably is not going to survive, because even if you give up that there's still going to be that pull, that this is the thing.

    This is what my life was meant to be. And you stop me there. And that's going to be like this resentment between you. So. And then the last one is correct, shared meaning. And so this is like talking about rituals and so like, what does Christmas mean for you as a family? You is a relationship. What does birth, what birthdays mean? What does our anniversary mean? What does a holiday mean? How do we do like?

    These are the rituals of what we do. But it's also the big roles in life are sex, money, children, career, domestic duties. Now, John Goodman said he he asked people like, what is money mean? And he said he stopped at one hundred different meanings of what money meant to people. So money meant caring, money meant power management control, money meant freedom, all of these things. And so this is, I think, why we have so many different words to express something that I think the gist of.

    We can probably come up with something that we all that meant all of it, but we all use different ones. So the shared meaning is about like, what's your future vision? What do you want for your. So this plays into that. His group had quite strongly values is what do we value. What do we. What are we doing when we how do we spend our money, how do we spend our time, how do we spend our resources?

    For what value, and it's working, but the arguments that we have are mostly about something that we're on different spectrums, that money means caring to one person and it means control to someone else. And because we've never really refined that, we fight and we think we're fighting about something that we spend money on. But actually we're fighting about, what does that money mean? What what could we have bought? So that's really the sound relationship house model.

    I just like to say I found that very insightful. I think it's a great model. We have to agree because, well, you were saying I was just thinking of so many different scenarios and situations, I would just like I'm from my mind so that they put into words. So, yeah, yeah. I agree with a lot of that. Almost all of their basic. Now, I think the one element that they have, they don't really address or it's not really what they're trying to address, but in order to do that, there needs to be a certain level of self awareness, self mastery and vulnerability and courage that all of the things that you've picked up on your hands up.

    Yeah, I tried to do some of this personal exploration with a partner, and it didn't quite work because I didn't have the foundations at the bottom in place. So maybe there was some parts lacking and then we weren't actually able in some ways to create shared meaning and plan for making my dreams come true, because although I'm quite fourth with with the other party wasn't. So, yeah, just just something to say that if you if you want to evolve in all these different things, a bit like Maslow's, if you don't have the foundations, it's possible that you may not be able to achieve those higher levels of foundations.

    In what sense? Well, it's a little bit embarrassing, but I suppose on a day to day level that sometimes we were bickering perhaps I mean, this is quite a while ago. But so it's hard then to sit down and then have an open and frank, energetic conversation where you're sharing your dreams and vulnerabilities and able to dig deep because you've been open with somebody who you argued about leaving the Jamile on the side the previous night before. It didn't happen.

    But it's an example.

    Yeah, yeah. And I think it is quite difficult for a couple to do alone as well. I'm planning I'm going to do workshops, and I think that the governments have to have a program as well, but I think it can be it can be difficult. It's like lots of people. You see lots of people claiming to be everyone's claiming to be the leading relationship expert. Not it's interesting. John Goodman doesn't claim to be that. But there are lots of people and I think.

    How can you say that you're a relationship expert, because how can you have a relationship if you're relationship expert, then you always have to be right? And how can I how can you have a relationship them, because it's automatically unequal? So I think. I think he's very I think in some I think we all need I think people are a closed system and a relationship is a closed system. And you need something outside of that stands back and talks about that as well, about having some third some like other friends or something that you can discuss things with, because otherwise it's it's like especially if you're someone who's introducing to partner and so you're kind of giving it second hand.

    And without having like 40 years of understanding, of knowing that you're not you haven't got all the grasp of the things and you're trying to explain it to someone without fully knowing it. And then they're going, well, that doesn't make sense now. And he also feels like to some people, if he's not framed right, it's going to feel like it's something that you want to do and it's been done to them, so. That's why I think like retreat's or something like that can give the basis.

    So it's like the right context because it's all about context, isn't it? So like you say, like if you're bickering, then you're sort of starting from a different place and that becomes harder to have that discussion. I think it's a really, really brilliant country, information you just shared with us. Well, thanks a lot. I really like the stuff about us having making a bit and that sometimes it's not what we're saying directly, it's what we're saying indirectly.

    And if that person's turning towards you and they're open and present, then they would pick that up as opposed to just being dismissive. I thought that was a really deep point and I really like the idea of the love thing and about again, it ties in with what I was saying about having values and priorities, because you don't have the same hopes and dreams and fears that you can share and you're moving towards them. How can really create a strong relationship?

    Because I think that's what makes people come together isn't the same likes, but the same priorities. So I think that's a really good point. And I was just really interested when you said that trust comes from when you support somebody and when you said when you heard the world stops, I thought I was really powerful and deep.

    Yeah, that's really that's really the sum of the government. Yeah. Which I think is. Because because their model is quiet for three, six, nine, nine different elements that can be quite complex just by one of the reasons why I said can we break it down for free? But being able to have that motto, like if you have that that motto mantra that guides everything. One of the like the love maps, because the five love languages so popular and so widely used, I all right, Gary Chapman, who wrote it in one of his frustrations with it was that lots of people have done it.

    And if they go, they go, oh, my, my, my love is acts of service. I want you to do this. And he's his whole thing. He said that people misunderstood it in that it wasn't about this is what I need, but it's about understanding people are different. So not just what you need, but also understanding the other person. Sarah.

    You're muted. Yeah, it was just a very quick point of being somebody's number one fan. Bitcoin itself will evolve from time to time. It's going to happen. But if you're that person's number one fan, you know, they are the most incredible person to you like crap. But really, you would still see them as being you're their number one fan. So, like, when you're looking back. But the people that had successful relationships, that's because they're memories of their partner.

    Oh, she was so beautiful. He was so amazing. And they've got that. That's how they view them. So if you view the person like that, you view them with those spectacles on. They are the most amazing person you even when they piss you off or whatever. I think that that's really going to see you in good stead rather than not what you said, just setting yourself up for failure. If you're looking at somebody and hating on them and not being happy with them, it's not going to last forever.

    It's just a matter of time, isn't it? Yeah, it's it's I think that's what we're kind of looking for in a relationship, someone who looks at us like that. And none of us deserve it all of the time. No. And obviously, it's not going to it's not making excuses for someone that doesn't deserve it generally. But if we decide that we're in that relationship like Eric Eric from who says that love is a verb, love is not something we feel we love, something that we do.

    And why it's so hard is because we have to put in that work. And so, like Helen Fisher talks about the romantic drive of being up to four years, somewhere between like six months and four years, that most people feel the lust, the initial novelty is love. But actually, it's that is just. That is really kind of the honeymoon stage. But. Once you get past that, there's going to be this is where like Staffy from accounts or from marketing, there's always going to be someone else who looks attractive.

    There's always going to be someone else who appears to have everything. And so over the course of if you want to have a sustainable and lasting relationship, there has to come a point where you decide this is the person. And if that's the person, then you have to, like lots of people, talk about polyamory and, you know, like relationships now should be we should look at relationships differently. And I think that really is. Part of success in anything is about sacrifice.

    It's about commitment. It's about sticking. You know, like if you're wanting to achieve anything, then a lot of it is work you like. If you want to be a black belt on a martial art, that means that you have to take like five to 10 years of dedicated effort, of doing the same thing that gets boring. And it's like George Lennon talked about. That's Mastery's. The relentless focus on the one thing and getting better and better, and I think that is ultimately what it takes in a relationship, is the commitment to cutting off other options.

    And, yeah, sort of deluding yourself. Because there are always going to be attractive alternatives, but it's the ability to sacrifice them for the lasting relationship. Thank you, Carl. Yeah, just something just kind of rattling around in my head, so. There's talk here of fondness and admiration. I feel allow me just to elaborate a bit, but I would say is as a British culture, I mean, depending on where you are on the economic scale, but let's just say in working class circles, there is an element of people chipping away at each other in a kind of joking sort of way and in a playful way for humility.

    But behind that would be love or caring and sharing. And what I'm trying to say is, is that are we as a society, if I may go abroad instead of kind of segregating, are we made that way today? Oh, hello, darling. How is your day and that sort of thing as a as opposed to a different way of being? Does that make any sense to you? It does, yes. So I think people often talk about Harville Hendrix and he's the best selling book, but I've never been able to get into it.

    And part of it is because it comes they come across as I was on a workshop where they were on and I've seen talks and I've never got past the bit. That just seems like very Californian. That's probably a generalization, but it just seems really American and sort of fake of where they go. You know, I am wonderful. You are wonderful. We are wonderful. And you should say that. And I think we'll say something like that.

    It's really just it just sounds like it's like, say, these affirmations. And so I've never got past that. It always seems to be quite superficial. And I'm sure there's lots of people there's millions people who love their work. So I'm sure it has value, but it doesn't speak to me and. So the reason I'm saying that is I think the banter and the I think you can you can have couples, they're like, oh, they'll get you.

    She's not going again. But it's the meaning beneath the words. And so it's not necessarily you don't necessarily have to dress it up if the other person knows what you mean. And so you can have that banter and have a derogatory name to that, if you know. That underneath it is a loving intention, whereas for me, you know, like I listen to some of this very sound, just sounds fine to me and I would look at that and be.

    I'd rather someone be honest. I mean, and so in that there is an honesty and a recognition that they're not willing to be vulnerable. In the sense of they're not willing to say say they say nice words, but I think they know like if they do know, like if if it's meant.

    Genuinely and with genuine kindness, then I think they they know if that makes sense, but the claim that apart from the cheerleading element of what they're doing, they're saying and that forced, exuberant display of affection and all the rest of it, that it is trying to put it to the fore, that it's almost like practicing and trying to reinforce it and make it become a part of of how you display your your feelings.

    So it's so overt and it seems so practiced and rehearsed, it's almost as though trying to tell you that this is exactly how you should be feeling by doing and saying that's what it is that you're you're kind of cemented it into your into your your being.

    And the person is is the fondness and admiration aspect. What about you making the choice to be someone who you genuinely respect and admire, which again comes down to you, not who they are, but who you're choosing to have a relationship with? And I think it relates to what Sarah was just saying about being someone's biggest fan. If you're a fan or somebody like Lady Gaga, you're not bothered when her next song isn't your favorite. You just you have a genuine admiration and respect.

    If it's reciprocated, I would think. Suppose you're a fan and you are doing all the right things, but the person doesn't give you back much in return. What I ask you, Sandra, is would it be enough if, for example, I always remembered your birthday? I would always be on time when I was there, I'd say I'd be there to protect you on a daily basis. I just go about my life and I don't necessarily.

    How are you? Oh, let's have a hug and all that stuff I'm just talking about. Like, if I do and this is maybe I'm going the duty of love, that actual doing of love is not enough or is that not enough? And maybe what I'm. Actually, the birthday is it's for me if you acknowledge the birthday is not what you give me on the birthday, that's usually significant. Because there are people who will get you the same thing, know, it's like having your secretary write in the diary and get you.

    That's just totally impersonal. Can that be so to me? That doesn't show me that you love me. That just shows me that you've got an efficient secretary and you've got money to buy me something that you think can keep me OK. So that doesn't work. But if you on a continuous basis can show me that you appreciate me and it's not just love it, love, love it, it can be just a hand on a shoulder in person.

    It doesn't have to be extravagant things. It's just in a way that your knowledge in my presence and you like that I am in your space, you want me there and you may be reading a book. We don't see anything for hours. You may just get up and you're going to make a cup of tea and you ask me if I want one and I will not because my head is in my book or on my computer screen. But if you are, you are appreciative of my being in your space and you are thinking about me and vice versa.

    So to me it's just little things not being continuous. Oh, darling, sweetheart, I love you. I love you. I love you. You are my everything. I don't want to hear that every day. After a while I'm going to say, what are you up to where you are, you know, like this. This is too much country. You're doing this. I cannot stop the number one fan. What I mean is not that it's not a cheerleader with the pom pom.

    It's like, yeah, it's nice to say yeah. Every now and then I love you or your wonderful or whatever you love about us. And it's not that actual display, it's that, you know, that person's always going to come back and tell you the truth. That person, if they in a room with ten people, they're not going to be putting you down and speaking about you. And if anybody says anything about you, they're going to come running back.

    And, you know, that person's always got your back in that sense. Even if you're angry and pissed off with them, they're not going to go about your business to people and run you down or you're not going to be worried in that way because, you know, when it comes down to the crunch, they have got you they've got your back number one fan.

    Yeah. So that's that's where you have trust. You know that they're always going to be there. Yeah.

    And it could be just it doesn't need to be all with words and displays. It couldn't just be when you're when you're in the shit they'll all if you need any, you know, and obviously you're doing the same, but it's not one sided. It's having security in your relationship.

    That's Yeah. Yeah. You just know because they've proved it, they've shown you they're not backstabbing you and talking about you or putting you down a lot as it could go a bit too far. You know, it's it's just, you know, they respect you and they love you and nobody else is going to be able to get in between that because you feel it, because that person's loyal to you. Working as a team? Yeah, yeah. But if you're looking and thinking, I look, you know, if you're looking at them and you're in them and you're building all these things up in your head, it's not going to get anywhere, is it?

    Because you don't expect you're not their number one fan? You don't really think that much of them. Yeah. You know, so you're going to be gone, aren't you? Are you're going to be cheating or are you just going to be taking advantage? Was Janice for you? I was going to say, I think, how would you say you didn't want to do it all the time or was it not enough? I think it's it's it doesn't have to be all the time.

    It's just consistency. It doesn't have to be all the time. It's just that these little things every now and again. And I think when you the longer you've been with someone, you don't necessarily expect it so often. You know, you can go for what you can go for a while with none and then some positive little, you know, doing nice things. It's almost like when you sit about a bank account before, if they've got loads in the bank account, they've done lots of good things before.

    Then if there's a point where they're not doing anything good because they're really stressed, you're kind of okay because there's all this in the bank and then all of a sudden the consistency comes back. And and I think if it if the ground works, they're like you like the foundations, then the relationship can survive those gaps for a while. So it doesn't have to be like, you know, over the top. Great big things all the time, every day.

    So I don't think you said, oh, I think I'm doing it wrong. It's not necessary that it's the consistency and that then it returns. If there's like a bit of a gap, then it returns.

    You say, oh, that's yeah, I think consistency is really important in that that's what develops trust because that's how you know who someone is. Yeah.

    Because then you can put it down to something being not quite right rather than the relationship being overall. Yeah.

    And and also I think this is where like the love match is really important because it's individual, because some people will one of us will never fade because that means that they there's some people it won't matter so much to. So it's understanding what your partner, what they're reading into, what you do. And yes, that's where you understanding the people at what you define trust, as you said earlier on, that when somebody supports you and just now you said consistency.

    OK, so trust is confidence that someone. Is confidence that you can rely on someone, so it's that they have their back, your back is that they won't hurt you. So there's different elements to trust because there's trusting someone won't hurt you. There's trusting someone cares about you. There's trusting that someone Montanti is trusting that someone won't betray you, trusting that someone won't abandon you. So trust is a bit like confidence and trust is, in a sense, confidence that someone won't do something.

    So it's just based on past experience, which comes down to consistency.

    Yeah, because what we judge, like the best judge of future behavior, is past behavior. So we have to we judge based on what we think someone's motives are, based on what they've done in the past, based on how they react to things. So trust is really. If someone's consistent, you tend to trust them, if they're inconsistent. You don't know how to predict what they're going to do. If someone's one week down the next, you never really know where you're going to be.

    And so you don't trust them. Does that make sense? Yes. It's about predictability, but based on the consistent past behavior which you're projecting into the future.

    Yes. Yeah, really, you get a sense of someone and then you get a sense of how they're going to react.

    Yeah, so it's it could be trusting a positive or negative way, because if they've let you down, then you'll be able to predict that they'll do that again, which is to say, you can trust that they'll let you down again.

    Yeah. Yeah. So you will. Yes. So there's going to be a sense that you mistrust them and. So it's it's like that trust exercise isn't a trust exercise where you fall back into someone's arms, and if you think that sometimes they may not be there, you're not going to trust them.

    But if you know that every time they're going to be there to catch you, then you trust them or you about going back to the point that you made earlier, this whole notion of what I do for your birthday. You know, if it's enough or whatever, to me, a true sign of being connected with another person is really understanding what. That what they really appreciate and in some instances, it has nothing to do with money. If you take me out and drive me up into the mountains or to the to the beach and we sit down and there is no money and nothing involved, but you just take me somewhere like that.

    That would be the best birthday for me. And in other words, it doesn't have to be I don't really understand what I love, that's the point I'm getting at.

    I know, you know, it's being connected to that person. You would know that about me because you're connected to how I feel and you see the things that I how I respond, like my plans behind me. They're not mine. But those plans, I, I will kill you for them because I love guns. And if you bought me an orchid it could be five pounds. I would just love you. It would be the best present ever.

    So I'd prefer you did that instead of killing me. But if you want to I mean. Yeah, you did. You know, I've read what you said really stuck with me. It is so interesting because you were saying about that you don't necessarily have to show an overt sense that the small signs of you enjoy that person in your space, you acknowledge them in their presence. I've seen relationships go by the wayside because people bury their head in devices, laptops, cell phones, and that is non presence.

    And even though you are there, this whole thing of being present is a real something. And what I was pointing to, I wasn't saying I remembered your birthday was more sense of due to Juta for love compared to kind of romantic notion of engagement that was really trying to get to. But thank you also for the advice, buying flowers and small things. And that's like little notes and stuff. And I got to what Mr.. Don't save it all for the grand gesture once the year three hundred and sixty four other days to cover.

    I used to have a boyfriend every time he left my home. All that with him. When I'd come back, I'd find a note that he'd written for me that I didn't know about the age I ever put in my bag or put on my TV or list somewhere. So whenever I left it time, I'd spent time with him, I'd come back and that would be there. And I thought that was really, really sweet. So kind of practice your handwriting.

    Yeah, we like those things.

    I think my point about the president, I think that's really powerful. And what you said, you see so many young couples that sit beside each other on the bus, they buy from their smartphones. And it's just asking someone to actually be present because, of course, it is before the definition of prison is your presence. That's a gift. Is that's what you're giving someone is not the object, but your presence. So when you speak of somebody making a note or giving you some sort of gift, what they're telling you is I was thinking of you.

    You were present. Even though I'm not here with you, you are in my my thoughts. So that's what presence is. It's the ultimate gift. So if somebody is present with you, even though they're physically it's worthless, you and I know what gives you pleasure.

    I know what you're about. I understand your makeup. And to me, if you're not in tune with that person, you will discover that about the other person.

    I guess I'm also trying to communicate that I felt that my. Sense of duty and love, always thinking of planning, doing things like that. It wasn't quite enough and I am alone in the duties. Not enough. You have to. There's more work to it, perhaps. But I still felt that a lot of what I did was underestimated or undermined or not not valued enough, but against your will. Do you feel this pressure you're putting on yourself?

    No, but I don't I'm not saying it is. It just sounds like you're describing it. It just sounds like you're doing what you feel you should do, not what they actually expected of you. It's just someone in a marriage, and she complains she's they're still together, they've been together for over 20 years. And every time that we're out and she's away from him for five minutes, all she talks about is how she doesn't feel loved in her relationship.

    And he said to her, well, I like the washing machine.

    And I think also that you've got to be careful about the making, the the the organized gestures of affection, where you have to do the planning and the choreography to make it right. There is little room for enjoyment and spontaneity in that because you are forever it's organized and a proper relationship should be free flowing in some respects. That's when you see the real person. When you get you know, you let your hair down, you just don't do anything.

    It's not planned to the hilt all the time because then you should be tired after a while. My goodness gracious. How much planning can one man do you know this over the weekend rehearsal for the birthday. This this is the anniversary. Oh my goodness gracious. The birthday, whatever. That's too much planning. There needs to be time to just. You know, I think if you look at cars, you can only engineer a car to last for so long.

    If a car is really badly built, the friction will mean that the car will break quickly. But you can't engineer it perfectly. So they always last. And so if you look at relationships in the same way, you can engineer a relationship to last. You can engineer it so badly that there's so much friction. Right. But you can't make a relationship that isn't going to work. And ultimately, it comes down to you, the right person, the right context, right environment.

    And if you have that, it's not necessarily about individual things that you do. It's just the general dynamics. So they can they can make someone a little bit happier, but that little bit happier isn't going to make the relationship last forever. But also, if one person is doing all of the planning and organizing, that other person becomes a passive bystander in that relationship and comes to expect and not necessarily do not necessarily put themselves out.

    It's also a sense of that. It can be where someone feels when people get into relationships. Sometimes there's a feeling of inequality. Sometimes there's a feeling like I've got someone who's who's better than I expected and the feeling like I've not been good enough and having to be better. And so that can be one of the ways that that whole dynamic plays out and it levels because what people superficially look like is what they really are five years in. And so what you feel you like, who you thought you were getting into relationship isn't necessarily who you were.

    So you've been very patient.

    I think, Sandra, go through this point as well. Need, you know, like we don't need to be perfect. It's just so much this perfectly honest men. Men want to be perfect. Well, guess what? Who knows. It's perfect what you do. It's only yourself. Nobody else can know. And you take out that old come expectation. You can enjoy whatever you do. You need the first two points. And after whatever flaw with that, enjoy the moment.

    I used to have Planas a car seat as well. I used to plan everything and was the outcome now make me angry, didn't kill as I wanted. What's happened actually just grew up. Doesn't work, need to change. Because what that says to me is that you get caught up in the thing itself and you've forgotten the relationship that's become secondary to the performance. What the man's got this associate the day they expecting to be there. Obviously the top, that's that's what they kind of teaching, you know, and that's what actually big demands is.

    Also, I remember Allan saying a couple of months ago about feeling the pressure of always being a joke on a day. And there is something in dating dynamics and. In. The whole relationship model, that mentality that we have that feels like someone has to perform. Sarah, your hand up. Is that still from last night's nothing? OK, sorry, Betty. OK, well, I don't know if this is worth throwing into the mix, but it's an interesting thing I've noticed as well the.

    Sometimes it depends on your mind, state, it's actually slows things down a bit and come back to that instead of said that just you present with somebody even so completely different worlds and don't have that much in common, you can get some sort of form of bonds that way because you were in bed with that person and just not that can happen.

    Yes, a good point because you can't connect. And this connection is about death of presence. OK, well, thank you for being here and sharing your perspectives and. Developing our relationship knowledge. So next week, we've got a forgotten we've got next week, even though I just put it up today. Well, we have another one next week and something. Sorry. Oh, yes, chemistry and compatibility. Yes. Yes. So we'll be working that out.

    Next week, this has been wonderful. I feel like we could discuss it all night.

    Yeah, yeah. It's it's a shame that we're stuck in a chatroom room or if we had we're able to I think we would be able to build out a model and develop not just the qualities, but how they interrelate.

    What were your three words then? The are the ideal moral integrity, respect and kindness, especially on that, because they came from integrity. You have so they're like the models that you you bring to the relationship. If you I think we went through this before in relationship heaven and hell. Where if you if you show up with integrity. You create a trust in the right environment. And respect in the sense of being really empathic and understanding them in the sense of knowing and love maps and really that's who they are matters, which then develops communication and kindness.

    Anything to read for next week? Um, no, uh, no, I haven't really, really not that. But it now it's not based on any particular book or anything. No, I think we'll just we'll just come, you know. I think so. I think what we're really looking at we talked about attraction. And I think chemistry is a part of that. And compatibility is chemistry is love. Chemistry is part of attraction and compatibility is part of the long term maintenance of that relationship.

    So, yeah, she's pretty. That's to think about. And then we'll we'll work out. So, I mean, what to think about is what, Chris, what's the chemistry? So if you were looking at chemical chemicals, are you looking at this chemical in this chemical, have this reaction? So what are the factors in personality and people that create that different response? So who are people that you respond to? Well, who people respond to you not so well and compatability then is.

    What do you need to support, you want equality in order to feel trust, in order to feel supported. What do you need from someone? So I think there the elements of chemistry, compatability. Kash. OK, well, thank you, everyone. Have a great week. I guess not just factual.

    I think your.