The Enchantment Dating Strategy

    In this Meetup we discussed the Enchantment Dating Strategy. As usual we veered through a wide range of topics and brought a range of views and perspectives to the debate.

    Transcript

    [00:00]

    So our topic tonight is the Enchantment Dating Strategy.

    [00:04]

    What was the discussion like in the breakout rooms?

    [00:06]

    We came up with some things, we came up with stuff, but I think it was a little bit of a struggle. OK, so what was the general consensus about approaches on dating?

    [00:19]

    I think they were quite good at pointing out things that didn’t work, but I’m not sure we could actually come up with anything great.

    [00:26]

    OK, OK then. So that might be a good approach.

    [00:32]

    So what didn’t work like? Definitely big challenge that they put people on the spot. So in real life I think it was very well.

    [00:44]

    I could imagine that being some some awkward situations.

    [00:49]

    I was coming to the workplace in a toxic male environment from a woman says he was the last piece Sandra was coming from a woman in a toxic male environment like a me.

    [01:08]

    That’s speech. So embarrassing. Publicly embarrassing. Yes, yes, yes.

    [01:18]

    Point of the question that how you come across it makes a difference to whether you would be a pain in your heart to someone.

    [01:26]

    Sorry. Can you say it again, Betty? Yeah.

    [01:28]

    What’s the point of the question? Was that how you come across to someone, but also whether you’re appealing or not?

    [01:38]

    Not necessarily the point. The question was what approach is attractive?

    [01:42]

    Because it may be that someone comes with the perfect approach and yet you still aren’t attracted to them and you’re not going to get into a relationship with someone you’re not interested in. But it’s too to learn from good examples and from that. Nothing for me, sorry, the Sheila for me. The environment was important, so for me, you know, it’s I wouldn’t mind being picked up in a bar in the bar.

    [02:23]

    Can I just pause you there a moment, Sheila?

    [02:25]

    I’m just going to mute everyone because you got some background noise and then if you can answer yourself.

    [02:37]

    Yes, sorry about that. That’s OK. So saying for me, being approached in a bar is not my ideal environment to be approached, because I tend to think if you’re being approached in a bar, it’s just. And I stereotyping here, I know it’s like a guy on the make, you know, it’s not after a serious or, you know, looking to be in a relationship. He’s he’s looking for a pick up. So that, for me, is completely off putting.

    [03:11]

    Sorry, can I come in there a little bit? It’s funny you say that because I think the complete opposite.

    [03:18]

    I’m actually saying to the people of my great courtroom that quite often it’s the environment for me as well, the place I don’t really appreciate somebody approaching me. I mean, for example, I don’t own the street or supermarket or places that I’m perhaps not open to being approached. But I find that if I go to a restaurant or a bar or a pub, then I I’m a bit more open to being approached. Whether that person is doing it, just like you said, someone on the make or just whatever, I try to ascertain that in the conversational in their approach to me and take it from there, really.

    [04:02]

    So it’s it’s funny that you say that I just sort of base it on the fact that I don’t feel so confident to receive attention in certain places, that I don’t feel comfortable in a bar situation.

    [04:17]

    OK, well, I feel more open because I feel like I wouldn’t mind in that sort of environment restaurant. It’s not an issue, which is interesting. Sheila, really interesting case for you. So would you be more open to sort of receiving an approach sort of in the supermarket, for example, or on the street?

    [04:39]

    No, probably not. Again, like you said, I’m guess I’m not expecting it. I guess, you know, if it was, say, at a dinner party, a friend’s house or, you know, even in a restaurant. And I think it’s probably my own hang up that, you know, I’m I don’t really drink drink occasionally. And for me being in a bar, I’m probably there with a friend. But secondly, I guess, is the fact that I don’t drink.

    [05:03]

    I feel as if I don’t feel a bit for fraud, impostor being in a bar. So I’m not comfortable in my own skin in that environment anyway.

    [05:12]

    OK, ok, that’s interesting. So from both, they said it is individual and where you feel comfortable, but it’s about feeling comfortable. Is where you’re going to be more confident with the approach and more receptive?

    [05:36]

    It is it is absolutely for me the case, I think so I think to be receptive to an approach, I think you have to have. Confidence in you, I think, dare I say, attractiveness in that environment, and although in a bar I may I may have dressed, you know, I feel my self-esteem may be there and my confidence might be there, but just. I still feel this imposter syndrome being in a bar. That’s very interesting.

    [06:12]

    Where their location doesn’t bother me. The person bothers me. So I couldn’t care less. It could be anywhere and it has been any and everywhere, so, you know, so but it’s the person so I zero in on the person.

    [06:31]

    So is that the person that’s attractive or the person that you makes you feel comfortable with the approach?

    [06:40]

    A little bit of both. Yeah, because if I think if I think you’re creepy or just totally off, I just can’t I don’t like you. No matter how good the introduction or the opening lines or whatever the circumstances are, it’s not happening. I’m not going there.

    [07:03]

    It’s the gut feel, I think. Yeah. And I’ve had and I’ve had pretty interesting topics and invitations as I told my group, some of them and the person, no, it’s not happening.

    [07:21]

    I don’t like you.

    [07:23]

    It brings to mind two situations, two approaches I’ve experienced. One was I was in a park in Sydney when I was travelling and I got approached by this guy who there was nobody else in this park or very few people out of nowhere. This guy appeared. And so I started chatting up, OK, this is really creepy. So I got out of that situation pretty sharpish. And then there was another time I was in in a museum in New York.

    [07:52]

    And it was actually my last day. And I was actually trying to get to this museum and see this exhibit before I had to get to the airport. And I was approached by a guy that worked there. He was like security. And I was like he was actually having a really interesting conversation. But I was, you know, I knew I had to leave within, like the hour because I was literally on the way to the airport. And so, again, it was, again, gut feel, the environment, a gut feel.

    [08:23]

    One of the things that’s kind of picking up, which you find quite interesting, is the discussions about environment and also how the environment is influencing somebody else’s or the person who’s approaching intense. Because the intent is basically what that patient is wanting by speaking to somebody else, obviously, in this case we would assume or making out that that person is trying to hash it out on a date or whatever it might be. So how do we. How do we actually know what the intent is, because surely the only true person I ever know is the intent behind any particular action is the person themselves.

    [09:19]

    So are we not being a bit too restrictive and saying, oh, yeah, because it’s about it’s there because it’s in a park if they’re shot, because then she could market it. If the judge thought it kind of like, throw that out there just for some opinions. Alan, what do you mean by intent?

    [09:38]

    Well, the intent behind us, you know, asking about so you get approached. So I can’t remember who it was. But somebody mentioned before that they’re not comfortable about being poached in a bar or something like that.

    [09:58]

    It’s because you’ve got photoperiod and. You’re you’re kind of the assumption behind that is because you were saying that they might just want to have a one night stand with you or whatever it might be. Well. I don’t think that we can assume things like that because the. Life is basically show into chaos that we really don’t have any control over what goes on at all. We have little control of ourselves, so we have even less control over other people.

    [10:34]

    And by control, what I mean is by controlling the situation. So we believe in that case that that person is as God and negative intentions. It’s not what we want. And therefore we’re going to reject it because that’s what we we assume. But I don’t think we can assume things just because of the environments that we’re in. And I think that kind of this and this is just my opinion, I think that kind of blocks the truth, because the only way you’re going to find out is to engage in conversation, OK, if that person turns out to be a shlaim or what makes it clear that the the just after the one night stand will.

    [11:14]

    Fair enough, but I don’t think it’s right to just dismiss on the basis of environments only. But sometimes you have an interaction with somebody and it’s not serious, it’s just a hello or there is just some a bit of some kind of an attraction, but it’s not going to go anywhere. It’s just a bit of flirting. It’s hello, you know, whatever. And you move on. I don’t think every interaction is necessarily going to turn out to be something.

    [11:49]

    Serious are, you know, it’s going to go any further. It’s just another human being trying to connect with another human being. And hi. Hello. And you smile or whatever it is. I remember walking somewhere. I was going to a meeting somewhere in London, and I’m busy walking to get to my meeting. And this gentleman is coming on the pavement and I’m focusing on getting there. And he passed me. And somehow I just thought, what’s going on here, because he was looking at me and I turned around and there he was, he stopped, he was looking at me and he was shaking his head and he was just doing this.

    [12:35]

    And I just looked at him and smiled and said, yeah, OK, good one. And that was it. There was nothing there for him to. He never wanted anything from me. I didn’t want anything from him. It was just hello in it, you know, and two people passing by. And a smile. And I think you don’t read anything into that, it’s just a pleasant day, it’s just another human being and you feel that you’ve connected with somebody in some way.

    [13:07]

    And I think sometimes if we were too restrictive, we don’t even allow ourselves to see to acknowledge another person in a pleasant way, because we are thinking that they want something from us all the time and maybe they don’t. It’s just. I see you, I like what I see. I think you might be a nice person, so hello. And that’s it, you know, so I’m just saying that to say that there are different types of interactions and there are different levels of interactions and most of them are not going to be.

    [13:48]

    Lead into a relationship of any kind.

    [13:51]

    But they do enrich us, I think so sometimes we shouldn’t just see look at look at another person as a potential date, a potential.

    [14:04]

    My right, my one and only my. Made to be. I think it’s a debate to just no answer to it, and you’ll never find there’s no right or wrong. I mean, in my experience, you’ve got guys I was trying to tell the story, but we got switched back into the main room.

    [14:23]

    What was why suddenly 14 years ago. And he uses that as an excuse to to empower women and chat them up with move on to the next. And he’s doing it about five times. Unbelievable. But then there’s also women in the group that, you know, the pretty the bad guys, and they spend the night getting drinks bought for them all night and they go from guy to guy, getting a free night all the time, free meal, free drinks and people like us, honest people even in the middle of all those sharks.

    [14:59]

    And it’s hard. It’s difficult. And when you’ve been divorced and you’re thrown in the middle of it, it’s soul destroying. And when you don’t get to the last thing you need is that because he’s just you just being taken by shock all the time. And it’s awful. And for someone who’s got a low confidence anyway, it can it can really it can really knock you down. I don’t know anybody else thinks about be creative.

    [15:23]

    Don’t go to a bar, go go to a park, take a picnic lunch and go and sit in the park and chat. Don’t go to a bar and spend all your money buying drinks for ladies who are not interested in you. Go for a walk. It’s free.

    [15:36]

    Yeah, yeah. I have a the plane and my wife and I decided that I was going to say why I’m so grateful for the fact that violence is all the rage for the purpose. Stop this session.

    [16:22]

    I don’t think we can hear you.

    [16:23]

    I don’t know if anyone else can make out what you’re saying, but it’s not coming from clearly that loud mouth a little. I think it might be a signal because you listen, which my laptop from work is better not in your backpack, OK? And I was just saying basically I agree with what Alan was saying. I don’t think know people honestly. People evacuated out, you got to know people a little bit by now. Well, I think the environment and somebody in a bar, for example, I think the ratio of genuine people who are looking for their relationships versus people who are just out for that phone is probably a lot lower than, say, for a while.

    [17:23]

    I was all about close relationships, so I might be more likely to be. So, yeah, I think as humans, we work on rules of thumb, and that’s basically because we can’t continue living forever since we work on on Gen generally journalisms.

    [17:53]

    So then the question is, so what really the questions turn round to is an approach is about someone who makes an approach, but it’s also about the person who receives the approach. And so what we’ve found so far is that some environments, some approaches make someone feel uncomfortable.

    [18:20]

    So if we’re in a tight market and we’re interested and is there something we can do as the receiver over of an approach should be more comfortable to be more confident, to be more receptive?

    [18:38]

    Yeah. Sorry. Can you hear me? I don’t have my signals really, but yeah. No we can hear you. Well thank you. I personally feel that when it comes to dating. I don’t think you can just be one person in dating and then another person outside in everyday life. Can you still hear me? Yeah, yeah. I think that if you want to be the type of person who can be accepted to be an approach, it’s not just exclusive to dating.

    [19:09]

    So I think for me, what helps is in my everyday life, I just became more approachable and people approach me more. And then every time I get approached, even if it’s just friendship or as Sandra was saying, just an interaction with another human, you get used to interacting with people that you don’t know on a regular basis. So I speak to people every day, every time I go out, but I don’t have that. Oh, God, you know how this going to go.

    [19:35]

    Why don’t I just free-flow with human beings? Because I don’t have a what’s the word I don’t have a preconception or I feel comfortable with other people that I don’t know. But I think maybe sometimes if you’re not used to being like that in your everyday life, when you go into the dating world, it’s very hard to all of a sudden just be like that, you know what I mean?

    [19:57]

    Definitely. That’s that’s interesting. You brought up an interesting point, I think, for those who are able to able to be on camera, would you still a yes or no? And for those without the camera on, if you just if you can do the reactions and you can just do a thumbs up or. Yeah, from ZAPU. Yes, just a thumbs up. Yes, so generally not just enticing, but are you comfortable in being approached in interactions with someone would just come up to you.

    [20:38]

    So if you are just hands up and ask. Sorry, could you repeat the question? Yeah, I understand generally, generally speaking.

    [20:54]

    Are you comfortable not just indicting situation, but someone just coming up to you randomly and starting the conversation or we don’t know what the intent is or why? Yeah, I think I am.

    [21:12]

    I think I’m very approachable. Yeah. Yeah. I would I would say I’m probably not, and that’s just basically because I think I’m in my head a lot and I sort of operate with in compartmentalize and it’s probably something I think I should develop more.

    [21:40]

    Is anyone else feel that that’s an area that they could work on themselves, which is it’s kind of like, you know, certain situations and you kind of go and I’m not really aware of what’s going on.

    [21:56]

    And suddenly someone might say something and you don’t, I suppose that you haven’t really thought it through and you don’t really know how to react. And I think some people are more comfortable with that.

    [22:10]

    Can I sort of sort of share something, Kittson? Sure. I do feel like I’m approachable and I think just the type of work that I do, I have to be approachable and I work in education. And there was a situation with them when I was studying for uni. There was this person and what I found now and now I know the term that he was in some ways breadcrumb ing me. So every time I met the person, you know, Behi, you know, just a quick chat, maybe grab a coffee or something, but I was never quite sure.

    [22:51]

    Can you can you hear me? Sorry.

    [22:52]

    Yes, OK, I’m just going to get a better thank you. Um and it just kept on going on and on and on for a very good couple of years.

    [23:08]

    And I never really got to the to understand whether there was anything. And I just felt like now I’ve got the terms, you know, when we sort of read about dating and things like that or watching YouTube videos sort of pick up some terms that perhaps we can think about in the past and all that, that was that was breadcrumb and go, oh, that person ghosted me. So I understand what happened there, for example. And I have to say, even now, it’s a long time ago, I still think, you know, did that person.

    [23:38]

    Oh, well. And it’s a horrible situation. So he was always trying me the whole backgrounds.

    [23:43]

    So if we can just clarify for everyone what breadcrumb is. So I understand Brick Coming is kind of keeping you on Crum’s to that. You’re about four whenever they’re ready. Yeah.

    [23:57]

    I mean, nothing ever came of it, but it was just I was never sure if there was anything and the approach was, is that the person was plotting and would have, you know, interesting and sometimes deep conversations and then nothing could, then it would be very like not even away. But if I if I see him. So it was it was it was quite. Yeah, yeah. It’s not a nice, nice situation. I don’t know if it was an experience that.

    [24:26]

    Yes. I stringing you along. Yeah. But there was no there was never anything.

    [24:32]

    On the table, nothing, nothing offered, if that makes sense. So it was just perhaps a surreal approach, a he was a serial moment that just constantly giving something, but nothing was coming out of it.

    [24:47]

    Well, where do you think it was just just friendliness or do you think it was an intent?

    [24:58]

    I don’t know anything. I just I just don’t know, and it’s weird. Yes, I’m still thinking about it. I mean, I guess perhaps I don’t know. I really don’t know. Could be hedging his bets, possibly.

    [25:19]

    I think there’s some fellows. Well, girls do it as well. You have two or three and you you have to do enough to keep them interested. Why do you spend the time claiming to be making up your mind to see who is going to be the one? And you never do that.

    [25:40]

    Now, you’re right and it’s not enough. It’s not a pleasant situation at all. And now. No, yeah, I definitely feel like I mean, it’s I can’t judge because I think when it comes to dating, it’s to do with intent. But I think everybody who takes part in dating has to be aware of themselves and also how other people can be like. And you do have to I found out you do have to have that resilience to sort of feel like if someone doesn’t like you, it’s not to say that you would be they just don’t like you.

    [26:12]

    You have to be OK with people not liking you and comfortable with that. And I happen, you know, breadcrumbs, which I don’t even really like the term because I think he just didn’t like me that much. And it’s that that’s OK. I mean, but I do feel like coming is intentional because sometimes, as I said, that’s sometimes just what people do. I think dating is all about not all about you and it’s all about you.

    [26:36]

    But you have to know what you want out of something or you have to know your intentions in your own heart. And then it gets easier to sort of deal with other people because you don’t take as personally. And it’s very true and it’s very true. Thank you, Alicia. I’ve got to speak to your name quickly. Thank you. Yeah, you’re right. Absolutely.

    [27:00]

    And Sandra, how do you know what somebody is in Templestowe of them observing their actions over a period of time? Was. Yeah, because you don’t know what’s on their mind and they might say one thing and do another, so other than watching them and seeing what they actually do, we don’t know what their intent is doing. I believe that I approach is OK, because we were interested in one thing. So I always felt like Christmas is any guide to follow through life, just trying to get me a no fly zone so that every single person and always I can’t the always is only one thing on the mind.

    [27:51]

    But yeah, I think my question is, is there any sort of telltale signs between a guy approach, like some some guy say, for example, more professional and more of a professional relationship, you know, which one would have been professional, which actually interesting now. It’s about body language, isn’t it? I mean, I work in education as well, and I started learning body language, which behavior to look, you know, when it’s going to be a kick off and things are kind of took it to another level of study, to the other body language.

    [28:32]

    Now, I’m obviously a section of that is courtship behavior.

    [28:38]

    And I’ve been on a couple of dates with a couple of women and good looking ladies, and you take them out to a restaurant and all they do too long line for, say, a month before they come across is a certain sort of person.

    [28:51]

    But then when you actually get on the meal with them, it’s a completely different person to sit in preening themselves and looking at other guys at the bar and you just think you’re a completely different person.

    [29:03]

    So if if I was a female and I was in a bar getting chatted up by a guy, the first thing I’d be watching is his body language. And 100 percent, you know what he should be looking at, what he should be looking at, maybe. And then he’s looking at your chest or the other is on the first day and kick him straight right away. And, you know, just to a bit of courtship and you tell a gentleman straight away and you can tell people why, you know, the one thing you cannot hide and what you want with your eyes, everything else, you can fake your eyes or maybe you’re a bit of that study in courtship.

    [29:46]

    Possibly. And I say that although I agree in essence, that I think that there’s some some people that they themselves would have studied or have knowledge of body language and will use that to appear charismatic. So I would say actually don’t look at their body language per say, but just look at their actions or behavior over a period of time, because at the end of the day, you don’t know someone based on their image that they present.

    [30:11]

    Is the body language, though, isn’t that even if you’re not studying the body language, their actual behavior is the one body language as well, isn’t it? We define body language is the way they act in general.

    [30:24]

    Yes, you can fake a lot of things. You can fake a lot of things.

    [30:26]

    But, you know, there are little telltale telltale signs. You’re not going to spot it all in one night, but over the same time, you’re not going to sleep with him on the first night, are you? So, you know, you might be looking at three weeks before you end up sleeping with a guy over three weeks.

    [30:43]

    You’re going to know you’re going to know if he’s fibbing by. Really? Did did you have more to add, Alan? Alan, sit in the chair. This is a lot.

    [31:06]

    No, I was just saying there’s a lot of feedback on the on the line. Oh, yeah. That’s better. Yeah, I think I think it’s a hard one to call, really, because it’s different strokes for different folks, isn’t it? But I think instinct is something that definitely shouldn’t be ignored. We do have a tendency of human beings to. To try and force ourselves to like someone when we when we do like them, so we’ll ignore particular faults.

    [31:43]

    And from a personal point of view, I can honestly say that I’ve that. Being wrong on pretty much early impressions of somebody I can wholeheartedly say that I have ignored based on the fact that it might be really good looking or or particularly charming or particularly funny or whatever it might be. But your instinct, instinct doesn’t like people will want to believe in certain lies about people. So my advice would be follow your instinct. I have come from a different.

    [32:27]

    And as I’m searching for the right word, OK? The way I was I was brought up was Girlschool, the usual stuff and blah, blah, blah. But nonetheless, you are aware of like in, you know, the usual stuff, like in boys and girls at sea, you start to learn the song and the dance, so to speak, even though you are not in it. You know, you’re seeing it, you’re observing it.

    [33:04]

    But so you haven’t you haven’t had any practice. But you you are aware of it. You see others, you see it happening and that kind of thing. But. In Jamaica, we are a lot less circumspect than here, so men try their luck. It’s just it’s par for the course. You try your luck and if you succeed, fine. If you don’t, you move on to the next one and whatever.

    [33:38]

    And so I have a barrier. I’m very pleasant and very friendly, but I have a barrier and it’s to protect myself. And I develop that from a very, very young age because.

    [33:53]

    There are people, men and boys coming at you and you and I remember from I was probably about 12, my standard defense was, if you come if you if you if you come if you try to get too close to me or if you try to get familiar with me, my standard response would be I’m going to tell my father and he shoot you.

    [34:21]

    Yes, and my father was known as Mr. Cook. OK, so fantastic opportunity or not that Mr. Kim Kardashian anymore, he had given up his gun, but that’s none of your business. And so that kept me away from the older man.

    [34:38]

    Who would the predators and. The boys that didn’t matter to them, but I had a mechanism to to to keep the boys away. So even though I am this old now, I still have some of that kind of protective shield. And so unpleasant, I was the forbidden talk, but I am not going to let you into so I’m not going to think that you’re my significant other on meeting you for the first time and let you into my space.

    [35:16]

    I’m rambling, but you I think you understand what I’m trying to say.

    [35:20]

    I. Because because it’s a fairly free society when it comes to men trying to come at you, you build a barrier which maybe keeps some of the better prospects away from you, especially if they’re shy because they think that you’re aloof or they can’t get through to you even though you smile and you’re pleasant. They know that they’re you know. Itself. And I don’t know if that’s what’s what’s happening with us generally as as females, that subconsciously we are trying to protect ourselves.

    [36:02]

    So sometimes when we we see men, as I think it was, it was it was talking about in the bar versus being in a supermarket, it’s you’re focusing on doing what you’re doing. So you put your barrier up so that you don’t get distracted. Maybe. I don’t know. Yeah, that’s because I’m thinking about shopping.

    [36:30]

    Yeah, I have I’ve got a question about that is so is this really specific to dating or is it specific to feeling embarrassed or feeling uncomfortable in the situation?

    [36:44]

    Is it like a. Being put on the spot in public. Oh, I’m not putting on the spot in the public. Well, OK, let me know. What I meant was what you talked about was you you learn the barrier from, you know, like from boys intentions. But I’m talking about in terms of like in the bar, in the supermarket, is is it about feeling embarrassed, being put on the spot or is it specifically about dating?

    [37:26]

    No, no, no, I’m not embarrassed. If you if it doesn’t matter to me where you meet me and talk to me.

    [37:33]

    Yeah, I got that. Yours is like you’ve got the barrier when people try to punish me. But what I was talking was more to Seward and Sheila and anyone else who felt uncomfortable. And I’m wondering, is it more generally about being embarrassed and put on the spot on a not knowing really what was going on in the situation, or is it specifically about someone taking in 10? For me, about situation. I would feel embarrassed because I didn’t know how to.

    [38:10]

    Act, react. You know, it was a well known fact when I was in sixth form, I knew there were guys interested, but everybody knew my friends knew that I wasn’t allowed to date, I wasn’t allowed to have a boyfriend when I was in school. And that sort of became my shield, I guess. But certainly in a bad situation, yes, I would. I would be embarrassed because I don’t know how to react. For me, I think there is an element of embarrassment.

    [38:45]

    Yes, I, I would agree there is a bit of that. I think when I think about I’m in the supermarket, I’m shopping, and then someone approaches me, it just feels, well, yes, I am embarrassed. I also feel like this is not the right place in my mind as well, but. And so, yeah, I think that that’s what I. I said, yes, but I mean, it could even be on the street, I would feel a bit, you know, there’s no one around, I would still feel the same like this is.

    [39:19]

    Yeah. And I think it’s also related to how I can I am at the time I can this is important to me. I’m open to it. And so I’m probably more open in other places, like a restaurant or a bar or a pub. Yeah, or at a party than I would be walking down the street. Yeah, that makes sense. For me, it would be about not knowing where to go in the not knowing part, which was part I found do that for other signs similar to how to pronounce your name display’s.

    [39:58]

    And where if I’m expecting any interaction online when I’m speaking to someone on the range in that way because I’m expecting. And we focus on people sort of knowing where it’s going or at least working out where it’s going, if you’re right more. That is unexpected, and I have no idea what is going on. We do not know. But isn’t knowing where it’s going, something that occurs after you are in a relationship rather than when you have just met somebody?

    [40:51]

    I think what’s fascinating is the interaction. You not knowing what someone’s intent is, not knowing. I think it’s probably about not feeling in control of the situation. But are you ever because that person that you’re meeting, unless it’s somebody in a group from a group that you’re familiar with, you know nothing about that person. So it’s it’s exploration time, I would think. And you have to be patient as well, I suppose. And so I just want to tell you a bit about the theory of enchantment, which is which really inspired.

    [41:40]

    Tonight’s topic, so the fear of enchantment is a theory from Chloe Valerie. And I’m going to try and remember it. And so basically she was studying what attracted us to certain brands. So, for example, like, why do people like Nike beyond say. Why do people affiliated brands like that and what she found was that. When Nike just do it and nothing of anyone can be an athlete, made people feel that they they had an interest in them becoming something more, Beyonce’s thing like who runs the world, goes around the world, is about girls associated with her, with kind of girl power and feeling like they could be they could be more clever.

    [42:40]

    Valerie. I’ll write it in a shoebox, and so that was really, really what she was looking at and how brands could do that, how how they could enchant in the sense of captivate interest and attract someone’s attention. And so what he basically came down to was free rules and the free rules are treat people. Treat people as people and not political abstractions. So in a sense of not saying, like giving people a label and treating people as a demographic that they’re going to market to, but to them as individuals.

    [43:36]

    So treat people as. People are not a political abstraction. Then it’s criticized to build up. That never to criticize, to tear down, but to uplift, so if, like, sometimes when you’re selling something, you’re telling someone someone’s doing something wrong and you’re going to help them make it better. But if you criticize people. And it leaves them less. Then they feel less capable, less empowered, so it’s you only criticize to build up. And.

    [44:36]

    And I’ve forgotten the last one. And in the last one was. So. Anyway, it’s. So how that how that relates to dating. Is I think that really people are looking to be so my theory before this was his connection over transaction.

    [45:08]

    So I think a lot of dating is transactional and. It’s really about connecting. And it’s about if you’ve got someone, you’ve got a checklist of things for people to make or you are looking for what you can get from them. So. The the idea of enhancing someone is to captivate there and attract attention, which is really what we will our hope is indicting. But it’s. In a sense, that’s. Oh, yeah, which is correct. So we’re even based on political abstractions, these criticisms uplift and empower and lead with love and compassion.

    [46:02]

    Thank you for that, Richard. And really, the connection with dating is. If we could treat people like that and that they would connect with us in a sense of what they can become. And so people felt uplifted, people felt. That you were interested in them rather than meeting their checklist or more ever objective that you had? I think that’s a much more empowering and effective dating strategy. So I’m just wondering if it’s worth having a discussion on.

    [46:50]

    Maybe we could do here or maybe people feel more comfortable in the in the breakout room on does dating make you feel special or commodity’s?

    [47:03]

    Oh. I think I mean, I think a broken record, but I feel like when it comes to what I first thought was whatever you put out there, you get back. So if you are treating dating like a commodity or you’re seeing somebody as well, you can go, then that’s what you’re going to receive. I also think it’s the way that you see yourself as well, like if you appreciate and obviously everyone’s got their own path to that.

    [47:36]

    You know, your flaws, whatever makes you good or whatever you think you can work on, which is fine, then you’re more likely to be a lot more compassionate to other people. Because I think what I’ve seen and probably to be honest in the past for myself, I’ve wanted somebody who I thought was perfect. And then the more I got to know myself, I realized that not only am I not perfect, but perfection doesn’t exist in human form.

    [48:02]

    So I think that when you understand that it’s life is more about connection rather than perfection, then you’re going to have a lot easier dating life because you don’t expect as much. You just you just go with whatever comes your way. And I’m so used to serving in that as well, which is an important part of life. But I think that people put a lot of pressure on themselves to be somebody and to have somebody who is a certain way.

    [48:30]

    I think this is Sheila, I think I agree with Alicia, but I think definitely self-awareness is a very important thing. But I think at a young age with less experience, your. Your framework, I guess, and your perception of dating is different, the more you know yourself, I think the way you are in a relationship is different. I think a lot of people going into relationships, you know, have this framework of what you see in society on TV, what you learn in school from your friends, and you want to be in a relationship because you have this idealism of everything will be perfect once you’re in a relationship.

    [49:15]

    And so you have these expectations. But I think as you become more self-aware and as you become more experienced within yourself. That changes. So I don’t think it’s necessarily intentional that it’s dating is transactional. I’m trying to remember if I’ve ever been enchanted. It’s a lovely concept, isn’t it? Well, I think it’s interesting because enchantment to me sounds like a spell and spells don’t last forever, I think with they end all getting to know anyone, know the bubble eventually bursts and then eventually live the real past.

    [50:06]

    And it’s depending on whether or not you are not happy with that, but whether you can accept the reality of a relationship rather than the fairy tale. Do you think you can have enchantment in a long term relationship, Rob? I think in Trautmann as the concept of being interested in the hope of someone feeling that someone can empower you can make you better than you are. I think that works as a dieting strategy. I think because it builds connection and it builds interest and it builds all of those things that are foundational before a relationship.

    [50:54]

    But then I think the dating relationship on a domestic relationship are two different things. And so I think in terms of when you’re looking at dating, there’s a lot of people that you can have conversations with. Prior to dating, that may never lead to anything, and I think that some of those you could have great relationships with. So I think the enshrinement works as a dating strategy in a sense of building a connection and getting to know someone you know.

    [51:35]

    Can someone captivate you long term? Not in a fun, fantastical sense, but in the sense that you can then build a relationship where you work together as a team. So the domestic relationships, very different. Can it be an advantage? It depends on your definition of enchanted. Can you be interested, empowered, attracted to. Yes. Is it going to be like the magical fairy princess spell? No, but I think there’s a that I think it works primarily dating.

    [52:12]

    And then once you have all those foundations, then maybe you can build it into a lasting relationship. I really like the concept of somebody enchanting in the sense that they’re bringing out the best in you and then making you a better person or you’re being empowered. And I think that if we’re dating, we should be looking for people who are bringing out the best in us, and that’s in all relationships, including platonic relationships. So if we’re in a dating, since we’re looking for the people who actually make us reasonable, and that’s those are the people who we want a relationship with, isn’t it?

    [52:46]

    Mm. Yeah, so I think the word enchantment in this sense, it doesn’t mean the fairy Disney nonsense, it means actually looking for somebody who brings out the best in you and makes you be a better person or aspire to be the best version of yourself.

    [53:04]

    Exactly. You know, I found what had happened very quickly. And I was like, oh, I don’t want to sound as if I was actually talking about a really good concept. And I think it possibly just the way to make it something that is not. Yeah, yes, I mean, basically what I understood and when I sort of said, OK, that’s that’s like a philosophy that works for this is where it came from was apples.

    [53:37]

    It was Apple strategy Guy Kahrizak. He was Apple’s marketing strategist. He talked about enchanting customers. And basically Apple strategy is to is to create products that delight consumers. And so they’re not trying to please people. So so, for example, a lot of dating things work on. I’m going to please someone. I’m going to be really nice and so that they like me and is giving people what I expect. And that’s what a lot of companies do.

    [54:10]

    Whereas what Apple does is they look at the problems and I say, okay, what’s the best way of solving this problem that’s going to delight someone? And so, yeah, that’s really the concept of enchantment in this. What’s the difference between delighting someone and pleasing them to pleasing them to me, pleasing and is giving them what they expect. So if he if you have asked. So, for example. If you’d have asked people back when they had their phones before the iPhone what they would have wanted, they would have wanted a phone with a faster processor or they would have a phone that let them text faster or something.

    [54:58]

    But no one would have conceived the iPhone before they saw it. And and the same thing does if you’d have asked people back when when the railway roads were the main transportation of horses, they would have said they wanted a faster horse or a healthy also or faster train line. So when Henry Ford came out with the car, that’s the difference between liking someone and pleasing someone.

    [55:32]

    Yeah, that’s a really good answer. I like the way you put it. I really wasn’t giving them what they what they already have in a new way. You actually give them more. You exceed their expectations. So you make them, again, a better version of themselves. So you get along on a horse.

    [55:47]

    Then I would go along with my 100 horsepower was this sounds hard work. If we work it out, we work. It’s about fulfilling the person’s potential because if it can be done, then why not do it? And suppose if you can ride one horse and that’s all there is, then fair enough. But if you can actually have a car with 200 horses under the hood, then why not have it? That’s delightful.

    [56:12]

    And see how that works with someone you’re talking to you’ve never met online is that you should you should fulfill your potential.

    [56:20]

    So it’s about not just settling for you all, it’s about reaching for what you can be. So that’s about yourself, I understand, but I thought the concept was to be something somebody else not not yourself is why it works both ways. I’ll give you one of the things we talked about in our breakout groups, and I had I didn’t talk about this, but when you’re given the most outrageous bunch of flowers that is far too big and beyond any size of flowers, you have a war and how it doesn’t delight you at all, even though maybe the intention was to it just is just too much.

    [56:59]

    Yeah. I would say and be totally missed the mark sometimes.

    [57:03]

    Yeah. I would say that’s that’s about pleasing someone rather than delighting. I’m going to give you my adaptation of the five five principles as applied to dating in the moment. But just like Alan Cumming isn’t something to say.

    [57:19]

    Thanks. Yeah, I put a comment in the from the box before with such expectation is the ruination of visual and so expectation is basically control. So you book a holidays to Spain in summer. You’d expect it to be expected to be expect expected to be a beach, you’d expect the food to be good and you expect the people to be nice. If your expectations are met and it’s raining, the the food rubbish, the people are horrible, it’s stone gardens and then that causes trauma.

    [57:52]

    So expectation is, is what we think will happen. And trauma comes in when what we think will happen doesn’t happen, so we booked the holidays to Spain and the example I’m given and someone said, yes, it is going to be rain and the beach is going to be pebbly, the food rubbish and the locals are horrible. It’s not going to be as painful as if you didn’t expect the. And where does this link into what we’re talking about?

    [58:20]

    We all have expectations and it’s you can’t get rid of expectation that would be, you know, that would be impossible to do. And it will be a depressive state if you had no expectations whatsoever, so everybody needs to have expectations, but you have to have a level of autonomy and a level of letting go of control. And I’ll put it perfectly. And his explanation about the lights, inflation and expectation. And having something happen, which is unexpected and positive, is classed as delightful, and it’s those things that that make relationship exciting and we don’t want to be in a board and relationship could be with the best looking man woman in the in the world.

    [59:14]

    But it’s boring. And they just want to sit down every day and watch television, all the ways that with the with the expectation. But that word is that the light the is not at all a new thing is with enchantments. I just wanted to comment on that as well. I personally think it’s a really, really good phrase to use because words themselves are magic spells. And that’s why we use the term spelling, because you cut them the spell by what you say.

    [59:40]

    What you say to somebody makes a huge difference. You can be who you are, how you say something and what you say makes a huge difference in terms of getting what you want or not getting what you want, and you keep these levels of intonation detection that you can use this charm. There’s all sorts of different variables involved in how you say something. But ultimately the enchantments those way, because you’ve got the term of love or being blind to somebody’s faults, technically, you be under the spell if if if you are experiencing those those particular things.

    [01:00:24]

    So just wanted to kind of get my opinion across on those those points. Thank you. And just to just pick up, so I’m like, okay, how do you use this? And is this a lot of work? So say the five steps of how you would apply this to dating or treat people as humans, not as objects. To seek the humanity and only uplift. To be authentic, to be honest and assertive. Seek connection at a level that’s natural and not forced.

    [01:01:13]

    And connection rather than idealization. So. The common complaint that most people have about dating is that they feel that they’ve been treated as as objects, that they feel like they’re commodities.

    [01:01:30]

    So I think I think there’s so many people that are on there with checklists and just looking to use someone for for their own satisfaction or just looking for someone to fill that void void.

    [01:01:43]

    We talked about the jigsaw stand up last last week, and that was really about you find this person, that facial jigsaw, and I think a lot of people don’t want to change, but they just want to find someone that fits into makes their life perfect without them having to change.

    [01:02:03]

    And the problem of relationships is that nobody is there just to fit your jigsaw. And it’s about you have to build and it’s not really necessary to change for someone, but you will change in a relationship. All of us are looking to be. To be seen, to be recognized, to connect as a human, none of us want to feel like a no, none of us want to feel like something like an accessory to someone else.

    [01:02:39]

    And so how do you do that, you do that by authentic connection and. What that means is. Understanding who someone is. Recognizing what someone can be. And just honestly, sharing who you are and when you can do that without any of the games, without any of the ideas of like having to make something work and to please someone having to. Pretend to be something, then you can connect, and that means that you connect what’s beneath the person, beneath lurks, beneath the hype, beneath the salary, beneath the intelligence or whatever what you are as a person, beneath all the qualities that you’re looking for.

    [01:03:30]

    Can you find anything that you can connect with them on on that level? And then it’s about. You can connect to people at different levels because they have barriers, because they’re not who you’re looking for, because they’re a different personality than than you would get on with. It’s about accepting who they are and connecting to them at that level. So and then it’s about not idealising in the sense of trying to make them having this picture, that you get all excited and have all these expectations of who they’re going to be, but understanding who they are and treating them as that rather than.

    [01:04:16]

    Who you would like them to be? And so. Does that answer your question and is anyone else got any questions or comments on how practical this is as a dating strategy? So what is your. One thing I was going to say was, I mean, to Bettys point, I think I think this is generally a good approach to have in life, just in building relationships, not specifically to dating. And I guess it comes from Apple and branding.

    [01:05:02]

    Then you can see the application. But one place I was going to say where I feel sometimes it gets me in trouble is I think I tried to do this and it creates connection. And then I feel I create too many connections with people. And then I have a problem making a decision on bad decisions anyway, and then I’m like because because if you think about it, people are searching for this. They don’t get it from a lot of people.

    [01:05:27]

    So if they find it there, they latch onto it. And then you now created a slight problem, I find, because you’re like. OK, so I mean, so I and I’ve had it with so I seem to get along with quite a lot of people and that’s the downside to it, because then really determining which of those people is actually a good fit for me is hard.

    [01:05:49]

    I’m struggling, OK? Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. But it’s so what you’ve done is you’ve you’ve changed the problem and I so that that that aspects worked. So now you’re on to the next problem. The next problem is filtering and boundaries and being assertive and really being honest.

    [01:06:10]

    So you can so when you have that connection, then it’s just about being really honest about how you feel and where you see them fitting in like, you know, like you’re a nice person, but I’m not that attracted you. And so that’s the issue is that you have difficulty with.

    [01:06:33]

    Yeah. Particularly for a long term thing. Right. Because if it was for a few months, then you take the you just roll the dice and go for it. And if you don’t work, you walk away. But when it’s and I’m also very bad of getting out of things. So. Yeah. So I don’t want to get in. So what is meant in the past is I, I’ve voted not to get in now I’m more willing to get in, but now I’m worried about.

    [01:06:57]

    Am I getting the right thing and then when I’m in my history is this get stuck in easy times when I should have gotten out, so then I’m like, oh no. So in some ways, I wish I was a bit less good at creating connection, because then. So you need to get in so that you have enough practice, I get out hour and part of why they’re attracted to you is because it’s because you’re being you’re creating that connection.

    [01:07:29]

    But are you being completely, authentically honest in telling them how you feel? Well, so I think you’re applying this to something that goes on for a long period of time. I’m playing this to even just first or second or third interactions, which which generally means that if you have a first, they want a second and second, they want a third. And then that is often a marker for people about. OK, so now there’s something happening here.

    [01:07:54]

    And then I’m like, oh no, it’s just doing the things that I think you should do when you meet a human being. And now this is a connection. So, no, I have to be honest. Then at those points, sometimes I just run away because I’m like I’m like, I can’t explain to you that it’s great. And there was a connection, but it’s not enough for me or whatever or or I create lots of connections.

    [01:08:16]

    And this is just another. I mean, that shows that you did everything right in the sense of, you know, people having a good time by being with you.

    [01:08:27]

    That’s that’s the point of this, that people have a good time. And then now for you, the lesson is so. So, yes, it does. I mean, it’s the best way of starting a relationship and it’s OK. But you just have to be very honest, very authentic and be able to know where you are and just be really clear about it. And so so that’s your next challenge.

    [01:08:53]

    But yeah, because I think I think in a relationship it is you do want the whole point of a relationship. It is teamwork is to that you make the other person’s life better and they make your life better. That’s the only point in having a relationship. If not, why would you be in the relationship? So it’s the way of started, but it’s also how you carry on. And you can do that with even the people that you don’t want the relationship with, because you can start, like you say, being the human being.

    [01:09:25]

    You can still be that. But just being clear that you don’t mean any more than the friend or whatever you want to call it. Mm hmm.

    [01:09:34]

    Is it the case with Richard that maybe you feel that you’re responsible for their feelings, which is you don’t want to hurt their feelings and maybe realistically you can step back and see actually as an adult, they’re responsible for their feelings. You’re not responsible for their feelings. So rather than you being concerned with how they feel, you should be concerned with as as Rob set your own boundaries and what you actually want and being honest to yourself as well as them and being authentic.

    [01:10:02]

    Yeah, I mean, that’s definitely part of it. I do I do struggle with any situation where I feel someone my action will hurt somebody in some way. So I do struggle with that.

    [01:10:12]

    So the things I think that would have been helpful to say to yourself there, and I don’t I’m not responsible for how they feel. Um, it might be slightly easier, but probably not a lot easier, I think, because if you if you believe in this about like. You know, trying to yeah, I don’t know, maybe I maybe I should try, I think the problem is I’m just better. This, yeah, it’s not for this discussion, for other discussions, but I struggle with I struggle with what’s the key?

    [01:10:42]

    I argue that people kind of. Think they know what they want, but don’t really know what they need, and I think that’s that’s my my my struggle. So I connect with people. But then, like Rob said, it’s a filtering thing. But I’m struggling to know what the right filter is because because a lot of this is because because I’m one of these people, I definitely don’t feel commodities dating. And I’m not somebody has bad stories.

    [01:11:07]

    Generally, the people I meet, almost without exception, seem to be really great people. So a lot of stories I hear shit I just can’t relate to because I’ve not had this. And I think it’s partly because I tried to do this with people. Um, but but I think, like you say in my mind, is another issue. But I just wanted to share it because I think, you know, the potential like thing to watch out for.

    [01:11:31]

    Yeah, right. Thank you.

    [01:11:32]

    Thank you for the idea of the strategy. It just makes dating better. And I think if more people get more people would have experiences like yours. Hmm. Again, of course, that’s going to mean that leads to another problem. There’s always. Yeah. If everyone’s okay with that, we can talk about this because this is. One of the aspects where it’s going to branch off to, I think Richard sounds like a lovely fellow that I think you sound like a wonderful gentleman.

    [01:12:09]

    Maybe that’s why you find that these ladies are connecting with you and wanting to hold onto you, because when you find a gem, you want to keep it. Think about it.

    [01:12:21]

    Thank you, sir. Oh, look, I don’t want to dominate the session, so let’s let’s let’s go down to I just wanted to put that in there because I say I don’t get me wrong. It doesn’t I won’t change my approach. I still think this is the right approach, particularly the one about the criticizing top left. That’s the big thing. I have discussions with people on that. I think you have to be real with other human beings, and I want them to be real with me.

    [01:12:46]

    And maybe that’s maybe that’s the thing. Maybe I’ll know it when I find somebody that hopefully I, I find that one’s quite hard one for people, for people to criticize and uplift. I think people don’t get why that’s so powerful. But that’s where that’s where you get the growth as a human being. And I think a lot of people don’t go that far. I’ve lost friends through that, like where I’ve criticized them because I went up with them and they thought I was criticizing them and down.

    [01:13:09]

    In fact, one of them came back years later and said, look, I get what you were saying, but.

    [01:13:14]

    So I think the difficulty is the use of the word criticize. Yeah, I think it gets people’s backs up as though you’re pulling them down and it’s more constructive, I suppose. Well, what’s the word that one could use? Challenge.

    [01:13:37]

    Yeah, it’s what you’re really trying to do is is to.

    [01:13:44]

    I suppose in a way, I hate this word, but empower them, but in order to do that, you have to break down whatever the issue is that needs.

    [01:13:56]

    Needs attention, and I think we are conditioned to react negatively when we think we’re being criticized because that’s such a negative thing, it goes to the heart of who you are that you’re not good enough. What you’re doing is not adequate. And it’s very difficult to say I’m doing this for your own good because that’s also a no no. Who are you to tell me that? You know, you’re doing it for my own good. That’s what your teacher tells you.

    [01:14:29]

    You know, not not not a companion, not your parent. But I think that’s something that we all need to learn how to do, that we do it with with diplomacy and with attention to the other person’s feelings and that we also.

    [01:14:49]

    Should be able to receive, on the other hand, some amount of objective criticism on our part as well, maybe from that very same person. So it’s not just given, but also receiving. And thinking of an example, don’t why you criticize well, what would be an example of would you mention your friend who came back years later? I know you don’t want to give too much away, but that would be an example.

    [01:15:24]

    I mean, that was that you couldn’t it could come down to his perception of criticism, whereas if it’s like someone just said, if you worded it differently, you can say the same thing in a different way. And you wouldn’t it wouldn’t perceive it as criticism and it wouldn’t feel down about what he would wait years and years and then come back. Yeah. Hmm.

    [01:15:45]

    Years later, I think one of the one of the issues is that. We’re all told systematically that we’re not good enough, and I think schools really it goes in, we go into school when we get ranked and we fail the test and we’re not, you know, the last one to be picked for or something like that. And everyone’s got these experiences of whether it’s parents, whether schools, whether they meant to or not. We’ve all felt not good enough at times.

    [01:16:17]

    And we’ve all been told what we.

    [01:16:22]

    You know, second best to someone else, and so I think people have an an innate sensitivity. And even when you’re not criticizing. Then I think people feel criticized. And it’s to do with how the sense of self-worth and self-esteem and how resilient they are to feedback. I mean, I think two and three are naturally tied together, so you have to it’s hard. I mean, it’s like a parent, I say I think, isn’t it? I’m not a parent, but I like the concept of being cruel to be kind so that, you know, I’m sure there’s times when parents have to do things to their children, say things that they’d rather not.

    [01:17:07]

    But it’s ultimately done, you know, to give them boundaries or to help them or to guide them or that kind of thing. So to me, I mean, is there that criticism, John? I talk more about honesty. So I find, again, a lot of people often and this is a big dating one, often make people say, oh, yes, I like people that are honest. And I find a lot of people don’t actually like people that are honest.

    [01:17:30]

    And maybe it’s linked to to what Rob saying, which is a lot of people who are honest don’t do it with love. They do it with malintent. But I think if you’re going to grow, you have to be honest and you have to be able to receive, honest to her word, criticism, because that’s the only way you’re stretching yourself. But but but it’s like that thing about it’s all about who tells you, right? So there are some people that come up to you, John, sit you down and say that to your point.

    [01:17:56]

    You know, John, let me the way that situation went down, the way you handled that or this, I don’t think was the best or whatever, and you would take it. And there’s other people where you’d be up and stick your opinion. Maybe so. So which when you day and you’ve met strangers, it’s not easy, you know, balance. Right. To to know, to know. Because if generally when you walk in and somebody is being in any way critical because there’s even like pick up routines that are based on undermining women particularly.

    [01:18:26]

    So so there’s a lot of play at play. But I say I was just pointing out that. I would still use the approach and it’s one approach. I mean, I generally now I’m trying a lot more on things during lockdown, maybe because I had more time to try and go into conversations with people trying hard to really understand what kind of and I think I got part of this from this conversation with Europe over the long term, trying to understand the person that’s in front of me rather than the person that I’m looking for, just just to try and listen and understand and be like.

    [01:18:59]

    If this doesn’t fit me, that’s fine. I mean, they’re a good person, I’ve understood more about them, but it’s not a fit for me rather than coming into the situation with I’m looking for this. I’m looking for that. So but it takes time. It takes time. And I guess the lockdown I had more time than when I was rushing to office meetings and all these kind of things, but. So I’m still for the I’m still for the approach, I’m just saying that, like you say, rope it, just that it can leave another issue.

    [01:19:26]

    I mean, I’m trying so I, I sort of feel the same way. I know that my problem is that I feel like I have a point where people understand all of the. I want to talk to you about. Just for X-axis. Typing in. I think in terms of. In terms of talking like not necessarily exercising, which I think I’ve always had an approach to lead with the truth, and what I learned is. The truth is important, but I think.

    [01:20:26]

    It’s kindness first, it’s that people are more receptive to the truth. When they know that you care. So it’s it’s kindness and value, then the truth. It’s like saying it’s like people don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. I feel like it’s 100 percent true. I also feel like everything that you say needs to be true, but not everything true needs to be said. And I think. And my own personal experience when I’ve tried to be polite to people that I love, like, yeah, well, you know, you do this is not what I said might be right.

    [01:21:07]

    But it’s not it doesn’t always need to be said. Yeah, yeah, it’s like the the British said, is it true, is it kind of useful? And then someone else then added to it. So Bob, is it true? Is it kind of useful? Doesn’t improve on silence. And I think that’s that’s the real test. I think we also need to be careful that we are not trying to create carbon copies of ourselves, too, when we are looking at another person.

    [01:21:56]

    We have to appreciate that people come from different experiences, different backgrounds, et cetera, and that they will do things differently. And part of what we need to do, I think, is we need to, as you’re saying, Rob, assess what these things are. Are they harmful to you or do you find that they are hurtful in any way? Do you find it, you know, disagreeable to you on different levels? If it’s not that if it’s a characteristic of the person that is not offensive in any way, then why seek to change it?

    [01:22:37]

    Because it’s a preference that you you’d rather not see or have. It’s a part of that person. And I think if you’re dating somebody, there’s a lot that you you still don’t know about them. When it’s a family member, for example, it’s probably somebody that you have dealt with for most of your life or you’re familiar with all the family members are. So that discussion has a different tone to it in that you are related. It’s yes, you can have ups and downs in the family, but that relationship doesn’t disappear.

    [01:23:14]

    You will always be related. You can be angry or whatever, but you’ll always be related. Whereas a date, I think you have to put your kid gloves. If you want to preserve that friendship with that person going forward, you have to be really careful what you say, how you say it, when you say it. And it’s not that I’m not saying that you’re shying away from the discussion. I just think that it’s a different approach that you need to take because there’s just so much that you don’t know about that person.

    [01:23:52]

    So in a sense, it’s because of the context of dating means it means something to someone else, therefore you have to be more careful. In how you deliver something. I feel like you have to. Oh, sorry. It was going to be a place going. Oh, thank you. So, yeah, I think you have to do that all the time. I mean. You know, so me and my mom are very different people, and she’s my mum and she’s like will always see me as, you know, her daughter, a child.

    [01:24:41]

    But I feel like it’s not always a valid reason, a way to communicate with somebody. I think that even if it is family, even if it is somebody, you know, for your whole life, for 10, 15 years, I think you can’t speak to people however way you want. I think there’s always a degree of respect. So you have to have and I think that makes relationships stronger. I am 100 percent guilty of speaking to my sister.

    [01:25:09]

    However, I want it because I were parents with a sister. But it’s not it doesn’t. You have like emotional chips in a relationship or like deposits. And every time we do something that is about crossing a boundary, you take our deposit out of that relationship and then you have to put it back in and think that’s the case of every single relationship that you build. And sometimes you can have a close family member who you withdraw so many deposits that it does fracture the relationship in some way.

    [01:25:41]

    I think all relationships need to be built upon. It’s difficult with relationships, we get into routines, we get into habits, and particularly, I think parent child, that if you’ve seen someone from a baby and you’ve seen them grow up in your head, that’s when you picture them. You that’s how you relate to them because, you know, you’ve been the one picking them up, comforting them, keeping them away from burning the hand on the stove.

    [01:26:14]

    And so you had this that role. And then we get into roles and it’s very hard to disassociate from that role and see someone as who they actually are. Is that quote of my title as the only one who takes a measurement and sees me how I am now? The. Yeah, definitely, I think in relationships, you can you can project who they think that you are better than you actually truly are. And I think a testament to a good relationship is always adapting to the changes that somebody else make in themselves and also for you as well, because nothing really stays the same.

    [01:26:57]

    I don’t think anything’s really meant to stay the same. So I think a good relationship to stand the test of time is one where the people allow you to change and that that’s OK for you to change and it’s OK for them to change as well. Retiree. And I think one, what might be useful is if we’re going to break rooms and the idea is to talk about. How could you use this indicting? How could it change dating for you?

    [01:27:43]

    Welcome back. So. Did anyone have any comments or questions after? Breakout rooms, I think the key thing that that’s been made clear for me that the approach is about honesty and authenticity and being present. Yeah, definitely. It was about if you work in mental health as a profession and you’re very good at listening to people and building connection, so they tell you the whole life story that maybe when you go on a date you should, like, not take your work with you and not listen to them and do the opposite of what you do at work, because otherwise you end up in a mess because you connect, but you might not be interested.

    [01:28:28]

    So it’s the same as Richard was saying earlier, but that sounds a bit wrong. OK.

    [01:28:37]

    Yeah, yeah, I can see that. So in a sense of what you’re really doing there when you connect to him in that in that way, in the same way that you would professionally, is you’re activating all their problems and then they’re sort of unloading. OK, so is that just finding out? What you would have found out in three months time later quicker or is it? Or is it your act of writing something that would might not come up?

    [01:29:17]

    And we were just talking the two of us were just talking about the similarities in having people’s whole life stories pulled out because of the report you’re able to build and you may not say anything about yourself. So it takes someone with quite a lot of character to actually ask me questions and supposedly women supposed to do more talking to men on these things. So I always intrigues me when someone actually manages to get me talking. OK. So. That that tells me that there’s a kind of read of.

    [01:29:59]

    So when I’m talking about connecting, I’m talking about fine, you find the topics, the commonalities, so you find things that you’re interested in and you bring those conversations to life. So the fact that you will run like they were unloading their life story tells me that that’s activating something else. It may be just a byproduct of being making people feel comfortable, but I think for me it can be a way of hiding.

    [01:30:41]

    If I’m not actually feeling the connection, I can go into that mode so that I protect myself from feeling vulnerable because it’s a comfy place for me to go professionally.

    [01:30:52]

    Yes. Yes.

    [01:30:54]

    That was kind of what you were saying the connection had to have. What do you say connection is then? Okay, so there is the core of someone who is someone else, there is their identity, identity, their culture, all of these things make up who we are and usually people connect superficially. So what I’m saying is, is really that you should. Understand what other things that drive someone so there’s what someone does. There’s this huge Dumanis, which is a big question, but it’s what they do, how they do it, why they do it.

    [01:31:40]

    And so when you can get to those questions, you’re uncovering people’s passions, the things that drive them like they’re fascinated by politics or they’re fascinated by personal development or gardening or something like that. And when you activating that, you’re getting to know a bit about them and when you can find something that they’re interested in, that you’re interested in. And that’s what that’s how you build a connection, because we connect to people that we see as being like us.

    [01:32:16]

    People that we feel similarity with. So you’re saying that there has to be that commonality and what I’m saying, you find the commonality, there’s always there’s always a commonality that, you know, like people like to look at differences and they like to say, I’m in this group, I’m in this group. But underneath we’re all humans. You know, like you can have a commonality with a dog because we’re all creatures.

    [01:32:45]

    So we’re all ways that life expresses itself. And so we’re all people and we all have this certain universal feeling. So there’s always something we can find in common. But the way that you get to the deepest connection is by finding some common interests, because you’ve got to have something that you’re interested in talking about. Otherwise you’re just sitting there, you know, listening while someone else’s is boring you or you’re boring someone else while they’re not interested. So it’s finding what do you have in common?

    [01:33:18]

    What can you talk about that you both brings both of you in life?

    [01:33:24]

    But you’ve got to be careful, though, Rob, if you’re you can be listening and you could actually be interested, but it could be that you are taking on a project. OK, and in the sense of, you know, they someone that this person needs fixing. You know, you’ve got to be careful.

    [01:33:46]

    Yes. What? OK, so there’s something in the way that I’m saying this and it’s coming across because this is coming up. So let’s to say I got your answer.

    [01:34:00]

    I thought that was a really, really good point that you made about finding a commonality, but not just finding something that they like, but finding something that you both feel passionate about. And then there’s that connection. Yes.

    [01:34:12]

    Because otherwise the conversation is not going to work for one of you.

    [01:34:15]

    And that’s the difference between pleasing someone and as well.

    [01:34:20]

    Yeah, yeah. Because they expect the normal. And I just want to before I just want to pick a moment, Sandra said, because I want to clarify that.

    [01:34:31]

    So when you find a commonality and when it hits their passion, you get to see the structure of the person you get to see. And yes, you will see where some people are broken or not necessarily broken, but where they don’t quite work and their system and how they think it needs to.

    [01:34:53]

    Is it going to work because it is so that doesn’t mean that you fix them, it means that you understand, you get to know who they are quicker. And that doesn’t mean so there’s something. If you feel a responsibility, then that’s something in the way in the mindset of how you’re looking at relationships, because none of us are here to. I mean, people are broken in the sense that what they believe does doesn’t work. But no one’s broken system, no one’s broken in the sense that they they you know, they can’t.

    [01:35:38]

    Do it for themselves and it’s not for us. You know, to to be to to provide therapy or anything for anyone, but it’s so that you know who they are, but you don’t need to take on responsibility for that. It’s just accepting who they are except accepting them for who they are and making your judgment as to where they fit in, like in the filtering sense based on what you learn. I say that against the background that I’ve heard so many men say that she wants to change me.

    [01:36:17]

    She thinks. About, you know, their girlfriends or whatever or their wives or whatever, she’s just trying to change me. She just won’t let me be she, you know, that kind of thing.

    [01:36:30]

    And.

    [01:36:33]

    And you can hear the frustration.

    [01:36:36]

    Yeah, yeah, not in the sense that the one of them is about the connection, not idealisation is understand who they are, but you don’t change anyone.

    [01:36:51]

    You make your decision as to what relationship they are to you based on what they are not in changing them, idealisation, this is where you are trying to change someone to fit your idea of what they should be. Where does, for example. What came out in our group was more or less sort of the type of relationship you’re going to have to know when it comes to, you know, intentions, expectations, is that in the third light fair enough.

    [01:37:26]

    That you don’t you can’t have expectations that you expect somebody to be different. But obviously, you know, when people go, they think there are people are doing it for different reasons. Like some people are more serious and people aren’t as serious. And I think that sometimes you can appreciate the person that someone is. But sometimes there are some things that you just know is just not going to work. Like on spirituality, for example. You don’t know what I mean, like something like that, a value that is so fundamental to you, because if you’re going into a relationship, you want to be able to build together on a foundation of probably shared values in a way, I think I probably probably take from my own example that I would I don’t know why.

    [01:38:10]

    No, but I wouldn’t be able to be with a man who didn’t believe in God, because that’s how I live my life. And I think when I want to have children, I know I’m not to my religion or something about my spirituality sort of way and sort of a way of seeing the world. And I don’t think that I would be able to be with a man who who didn’t have that within himself for his own right. But what about if in 10 years time you read somebody that completely changed your view and you came to the opinion and there wasn’t a God?

    [01:38:48]

    But like, I mean, I don’t I mean, I don’t really see that happening because I do believe in God. So how do you define God? Well, I believe that there is a creator that created us all. I believe that. So for me, it’s not necessarily like without getting to what we can do, but so like religion and spirituality to me are different. This is just the way I see everything. And I feel like everybody has their own divine love.

    [01:39:18]

    I believe in a soul and I believe in the spirit. And I feel like at the center of everything, everyone has it. You can call it consciousness. You can call it whatever you want. But I think that the way I see life is that everybody has that seed within them called a consciousness called spirit. Call it a soul. I think we all have that. And I think that sort of lens, I see the world and I feel like for me, when I think of God, I don’t think of the Christian God or the Jewish God.

    [01:39:47]

    I think that there is a creator of everything. And I think that that part of us, that’s a part of who we are. And for me, nurturing that part of myself is. Very important, and I don’t know if I could be invasive with the press, you just don’t believe in God. What would what would be the breaking point? Like what? How would that break the relationship? Trying to understand what the value means to you and how that.

    [01:40:16]

    Or the way I see the way I see the breaking point, probably be the way I see is that God is love and there’s like a sense of not really seeing who we are on the outside as who we truly are, like, you know, with the politics, with everything like that. I don’t think that that’s actually what life is truly about. I think it’s a soul’s evolution. And I think everyone’s everyone’s got their own purpose to fulfill in this life.

    [01:40:40]

    But it’s not what we see in material form is who we truly are. And if the breaking point for me would be if the guy that I was seeing only saw life in the abstract form and nothing deeper, that makes you who you are. You know, the thought beyond the thought to think of, beyond think. I don’t know if I could be with somebody who didn’t want a deep dive more into what reality truly is.

    [01:41:10]

    It does you can you can have that through, just to be devil’s advocate here, but you could you could find that sense of what you’re talking about. Lot of art as well. I mean, a particular love of because there is you know, you could not be a spiritual person, but still be very good at, you know, music or literature or paintings or sculpture or something. And that also gives you that sort of spiritual sense, because this is a but.

    [01:41:39]

    Now, that doesn’t make sense. Yeah, my parents, it was really just. That was not. And my father was not. And he was the most faithful husband. I wish that, you know, when you say you wish you could have your thought, your father is your idol and he’s not my idol. But in that sense, I give him total respect. And as a result of the way he treated my mother and he never denigrated her religious views because she came from a family of, you know, preachers in the past and what have you.

    [01:42:25]

    And they were fine. They worked together. They were it was it it worked.

    [01:42:34]

    I’m saying this to say that the person who could be the best mate for you may not share your religious views, but as a partner, they could be very, very good.

    [01:42:51]

    And by using that yardstick, you could be cutting off the very person who could make you very happy and.

    [01:43:03]

    I think the important thing is that the person would respect your views. More than having to actually share be of the same persuasion that they respect your views and that they do not hinder your ability to practice their faith. Or putting your faith, your. And vice versa. And they never had religious discussions, they just got was something that we. My mother did her church thing on her prayer thing and what have you and whatever, he just did not participate.

    [01:43:46]

    It’s like an Irish pub. You’re not allowed to talk about politics or religion whatsoever.

    [01:43:52]

    They belong to. Well, there are two parties in Jamaica and each one belong to the other one the other side. So they were they had opposing views in almost everything except us, the children where they were united and also how he treated her with respect. There was never, ever anybody who could say, you know, Mr. So-and-so had a girlfriend around this corner or don’t you know that there’s a little half sister, half brother down the road somewhere?

    [01:44:23]

    No, my father was just totally faithful. He went to work and came home and he stayed with my mother. And that was that. They just didn’t go to church together. She went to church and he sat and listened to his music and whatever else he wanted to do and his dogs, but and they they worked. I’m not trying to convince you, but I’m just giving you a practical example of two people who saw light in terms of religion and politics, the two most important things in a totally different ways.

    [01:45:03]

    In this country that there’s been a movement, hasn’t there, and certainly in the last 20 years, in which the state isn’t the first person to have come up with this. Obviously, there’s been some quite anti religious sense. And obviously some people actually are quite anti religious. And I think religion has things to answer for and that I don’t think there’s any value in it all. And they see no value and they think it’s evil. And I think you definitely don’t want someone like that.

    [01:45:31]

    But there were plenty of people, I think as well, who perhaps the probably you know, they could be agnostic, I suppose, in terms if they don’t really know. I certainly I suppose. But even then, I could even find a decent atheist just provided by some of them, not even want to think about it. So as long as they’re not actually challenging you and saying what you believe in is wrong and you shouldn’t do that because no one wants that really to you know, you talk about fundamental things that make you really want someone in the relationship with someone in one of your fundamental pillars that make you who you are.

    [01:46:09]

    It’s OK to talk about this or that or something. It may be that type of jumper or X, Y, Z or, you know, I don’t I can’t go out with you if you support my just, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I really just sort of pillars. You can’t you don’t want somebody who’s just going to challenge you from the outside together.

    [01:46:29]

    But if you say, for example, go back to the Ten Commandments and say that’s OK, those are the rules that you live by and they’re not being religious doesn’t mean that you don’t conform to those Ten Commandments. You know, you don’t have to be religious. And I think this is one of the things that some people just are unwilling to accept, that you can actually have a high moral code. You can abide by these kind of coincides with the tent, with the same Ten Commandments that you hold dear as coming from the scriptures that you live your life by.

    [01:47:19]

    And somebody who is not religious is also conforming to them. Maybe somebody well, you don’t know how they have arrived at it, but it’s still a code that there’s a common ground between you, you know. And to me, if you have that commonality, why is it that you can’t build a connection about other things? Because if you value your family, you want the best for your children, you’re creating a good home, you and all of those things that go to make a good family?

    [01:47:54]

    I would think that that that’s a pretty good person. Yeah, no, I definitely know I definitely understand that, like, I can understand for sure, like, I don’t think that you have to believe in the same things in order to have a good relationship. I mean, for me, I don’t know, like I see what I would classify myself as religious or spiritual. And for me, it is different. So I wouldn’t necessarily be like, you have to be a Christian faith.

    [01:48:25]

    You have to be Jewish. You have to be Muslim. I don’t believe in that myself. I do think that believing in God can’t be separate from religion, and I don’t really care about how someone chooses to express themselves, but I personally feel like a belief in God is fundamental. And that’s just the way I see it.

    [01:48:50]

    I think, from what I’m understanding is. It’s more that someone’s looking for something deeper rather than everyday life. Yeah, someone that believes in. Yeah, yeah. It’s just I think whenever you touch on spirituality and religion, is this so many people. Explain the same thing in different ways, and we don’t get lost on the words of someone I like Joseph Campbell’s definition that God is the name for the mystery, that we found the mystery of the universe or something like that.

    [01:49:28]

    It’s something that we can’t know, we can never know and we just try and label. And that’s the real problem with words.

    [01:49:36]

    Yeah, I agree. Also, I was curious, when you watch the leadership, did you say to clarify what value does it bring?

    [01:49:45]

    You know what I was I was just trying to challenge is we often. Decide what’s going to be a bright line or what’s going to break the relationship. And I just want you to explore.

    [01:50:04]

    What what was the what was the part of it that was going to. The relationship not work, I definitely feel like that is exactly right, like you can call it. That’s why I mean, I just I just say God, but people say the universe. Some people say, you know, higher up being a single entity, whatever it is. The thing is to look at is the mystery of the universe that we can never know what. I’m not even sitting here and I know God, Jeremy, and I never will admit I’m human, but I think it is that that search for or not even search, but that willingness to be open to not just what’s put in front of us on the TV, the newspaper and what we’re just told in school, although I don’t believe that anyone of school is like that.

    [01:50:54]

    But, you know, to me and I you know, when people just accept reality for what it is and have no desire to know anything more within themselves or in life, I just it’s just that sense of internal adventure.

    [01:51:08]

    Genuine Amien curiosity about the big questions of life.

    [01:51:12]

    Yeah, but when you say, OK, what would not make the relationship work, is that about asking yourself, what do you really need? Is in what’s your values rather than what do you want in a sort of dreamlike way?

    [01:51:25]

    And it’s it’s based on that. Like I said, if you look at when people go dating and women are more picky, so there is a study and it is a bit misrepresented, but they basically showed that women class, only 20 percent of men are above average. And they would want an above average partner. They’ll then look for intelligence, which is like they’ll look for the top 30 percent of intelligence and often it will be high like six feet or over, which is like fourteen point one percent of the population.

    [01:52:13]

    So straight away, people have cut.

    [01:52:18]

    The dating market down to a tiny fraction, and then they wonder what they say, that there’s no good men out there. Well, there are often the filters that they’re using to predetermine who’s going to be the right person isn’t based on the person, but it’s based on their prejudice of what they believe and often.

    [01:52:43]

    In real life, like the abstractions of the ideas that we think that would make someone a good person aren’t necessarily that, and it can we can fall for the definitions that someone labels themselves where someone might may be a bad person, a bad faith, but because they use different terminology or haven’t explored something than that, then people cut themselves out from a whole swathe of people who could potentially be good partners. And scientists blame Hollywood.

    [01:53:27]

    Yeah, but isn’t isn’t it true that on dating sites, there’s there’s not a normal distribution curve of male high because they lie about the high level six-fold? I mean, you know, my longest term. Boyfriend since I’ve been a widow was five foot three, but because we met online talking like this, I didn’t really know what that meant and I thought, oh my words, gosh, that five, four, three is quite short.

    [01:53:56]

    Really is the I thought I might tonalist I might I have had lots of internal dialogue about, you know, stupid things like height. You know, I get caught short and I’m five, 10.

    [01:54:10]

    Do you really think I’m delusional then.

    [01:54:14]

    Well, because women want Brad Pitt basically.

    [01:54:22]

    Well, I’m sorry. Did you just treat women?

    [01:54:26]

    Not grounded in reality, though, because like you said, they want things that aren’t realistic. And if everybody wants men that are above average, but actually they only want the top 20 percent, which obviously is an average, then doesn’t that mean that women are generally delusional?

    [01:54:41]

    To an extent, but dating sites, dating sites promote that? Because when you go to a dating site, you promised everyone and when you getting all these messages from everyone, then it can it can get it can make you unless someone’s really analyzed and worked out that they’re going to look at the messages and then going to sort of nice criteria, but.

    [01:55:09]

    Behind the bigger criteria is, is someone coined if someone committed, is someone really interested, are they open or they honest? All of those things are the real things that really determine a relationship. And yet people are cutting some of those people out because they haven’t got the partly because they don’t present themselves very well. They don’t come across well in their messages. They don’t know they’re not as confident.

    [01:55:35]

    And so people are cutting them out just because of the because they’ve been maybe like if they’re probably a girl, they’ve been bombarded with messages. They have to have some way of filtering. And so that’s just the quickest way. But it’s not necessarily effective for what they want. Women are choosing for shallow things like height rather than actually getting to know someone and their character, but isn’t not a reflection on the person that’s choosing. In other words, they should know a certain point as they go along.

    [01:56:07]

    The journey to the thing that really makes a difference in their life is the person’s character. It is, but I don’t think that there’s. Like I said, most people, they come out of a relationship and we’re assuming, I think most of us are about the age we’ve been in a relationship, and then we come home and I see you’ve been in a relationship or you start dating. No one really knows what do you do. So they go whatever’s on top of their mind, they’ll put in a dating profile.

    [01:56:39]

    They’ll start swiping or sending messages or receiving messages. And I haven’t really got any clear criteria. So if you’re going to do that and even people that are, then, yes, predominantly it’s going to be attraction. It’s going to be like, I want someone. Heart is told me. I want someone who’s got a good job. I want someone who’s good looking.

    [01:57:06]

    So, yes, but it’s based on we don’t really have. In the mainstream, there is no real relationship knowledge to know any better. And everything in the media feeds on all of this stuff, and some people have never gone past, so this is like the primary layer, then there’s the secondary and tertiary layer. Most people have never really gone past the first layer and they just think it’s luck. I think a dating app, however, is very difficult for you to really put yourself in a very good light because they are what I call the hard characteristics your height, your color of your eyes, the things that you just date.

    [01:57:55]

    Those are easy to put down. But the soft, you know, the equivalent of soft skills, they the soft characteristics of yourself, it’s very difficult for you to describe it and for it to sound as though you’re actually being totally honest. So I think that is that’s the rub, because those are the things that, as you’re saying, that really matter. But those are the hardest things to describe and put in a profile and and to make it believable, because I could write I am very kind and very sympathetic.

    [01:58:34]

    And I just did the cynical and I say, yeah, yeah. You’re only saying that because you, you know, and.

    [01:58:42]

    You are saying that is that really true? You know, when it comes to somebody’s character, how do you know unless you get to know them over a period of time? Because, like you said, they can say anything.

    [01:58:52]

    Yeah, they can. I think you can only know by watching what they do.

    [01:59:00]

    But just just to go back just to just to understand it. But I think it’s everyone lists characteristics, which is meaningless because everyone would say that they were honest to reclaim people, compassion, the caring, they give everything. When you look at criminals and serial killers, they say, I was a good person, but it was the situation that I was you know, I always did my best for other people. So that’s meaningless. And that’s why dating profiles are.

    [01:59:29]

    So they just come you but you don’t you show you show the characteristics by telling a story about it. You you make you it’s the way that you present it cerebrally. Do you know John Gray, the guy that wrote Men are from Mars, women are from Venus? I was listening to one of his podcasts and he amusingly, I thought, said that women should really date men, that they don’t completely fancy the pants off because they’re going to behave in a much more sensible way than if they do.

    [02:00:05]

    I thought that was curious. I thought that’s interesting, that if we really fancy them, it will affect our boundaries and everything that he said. That’s not that’s not unique to find out with a character that kindness before you can spend with them. So make sure you don’t really, really fancy the pants off them because, you know, that’s not going to be so much easier to do if you don’t. And I thought that’s that’s quite an interesting thing for him to say.

    [02:00:30]

    He’s he studied it for his lifetime has been.

    [02:00:34]

    But yeah. Yeah, I think. So, like, if you really attracted to someone, you can have a fling with them, but don’t assume that means there is a relationship. That’s why I say you shouldn’t you shouldn’t be looking at.

    [02:00:55]

    Believing that, you know, anything meaningful about someone before about a year, six months to a year, because you need to see them in all different contexts, you need the hormones and the lust and whatever to have died down. So, like, if you’re really attracted and people really want to, you know, like they really fancy someone and, you know, like you say, all those boundaries, you can have a fling, but don’t make it any more meaningful than that.

    [02:01:19]

    Just because you’re having a fling doesn’t mean it means anything more than. It’s it’s very similar. I mean, I think there’s more and more every time we have these sessions, it’s very much like you’re taking out probably five days like you’ll save. And obviously, everyone says the same things and they say that as well. And they would say certain things. And then obviously like the dates about your interviews. And it’s always good to do an interview for a job that you don’t care if you get one, because that helps you learn to relax in an interview, basically that you’ve got more positive stuff yourself.

    [02:01:58]

    And then obviously, what if you get the job, they might they put you on probation, forget them. It’s kind of good that there are real similarities. And I think maybe indicting more than with that is to start more than no actual date in real life for your friends and friends. It is quite mechanical and it can go wrong. But, you know, just because we were talking earlier, I think that with Richard, I think sort of saying something about letting people down.

    [02:02:25]

    And I think you were saying very well, we’ve lost weight and so I’ll break out great. But it’s difficult. But, you know, it’s a let down when you get tired, you don’t get a job and be disappointed if you put work, but you get over it. And I think that’s probably quite a good way to look at it, because sometimes you just have to take that advice and then eventually you actually get the job that you want.

    [02:02:51]

    Yes, I think exactly like that and said wherever wherever is the bit that you have the problem with, like if you’re losing your boundaries with people who are attracted to you, then you can yeah, you can kind of practice and develop skills by going on dates with people that you’re not necessarily you need to mobilize people as well.

    [02:03:18]

    I guess that’s another way. Yeah.

    [02:03:21]

    And and I think ultimately it’s all about practicing and connection and connect it’s connection without losing yourself so that you connect but connect as you are and and then letting go of that. And then it might be like the practice is letting people down. There might be that the practice is being let down wherever your department is holding you back. That’s the bit that you need to develop skill. And so being in the situation is the best. Best way that you can practice and develop that skill.

    [02:04:10]

    Do you feel like with relationships, it’s good to sort of know and I know that women can be guilty. There’s an app on my hands up right now because I’ve been the person who’s been. Right, right. I need to fancy you straight away and it’s unfair. But the thing is, what I’ve learned and I completely agree with you said, well, you know, actually it was rude saying that the guy was like, oh, don’t you know people who are really attracted to you?

    [02:04:40]

    Because I’ve definitely got people I’d been really attracted to. And it’s just literally it’s just not it’s just not a good idea because you do get caught up and it’s just like the hormones, everything like that. And also I feel like there’s different stages of life. But what I’m trying to say is, what do you think it’s helpful to sort of know where you want to end up eventually? For example, I know that I want to get married and have children, but like anything that happens in between, then, you know, I’m not too bothered about because I sort of know where I sort of want to end up.

    [02:05:11]

    So like before, when I wanted to make every single interaction count towards something, I was like, right. This connection, I mean, this is connected. You’ve got me now. But now that I’m like, yeah, you know, I do what marriage and kids. I know it’s going to be a longer process to get there anyway. So I thought there’s a little less pressure, you know what I mean?

    [02:05:30]

    And I think you I think this the experience of life and part of the experience of life is that you can’t control it and it’s exactly what happens. I think you can have a general idea. But knowing that. We don’t know. We don’t know what’s really going to make us happy, and that’s going to change as we change. So I think you can have a general idea but not be too fixated on it. But I think Alan has got something to say.

    [02:06:07]

    But it could be a great night and yeah, it was just them just in relation to Alexis said and a couple of points.

    [02:06:20]

    Just on the most recent one about the gay marriage aspect, that just kind of curious about, what does it actually mean?

    [02:06:31]

    I used to think that I used want to get married as well. And now I. I don’t I just think it’s an idea. I don’t think it is in any shape or form and I don’t think you mean especially if you’re. See, marriage to me is informed by I don’t think it’s a mystery shopping anymore.

    [02:07:01]

    I think it’s more that you contract and am not going to be based on financial security than other things.

    [02:07:10]

    And maybe I’m a bit cynical because I’ve seen so many marriages. Fall apart. But, yeah, it just is it is it’s simply an idea that marriage is this wonderful thing, that that’s always the first question. And secondly, you mentioned about the. The high power, the government in particular, and. Thing that you wouldn’t compromise on, and I think in one way it’s a good thing because it’s good to have shared values. Well, we’ve also got to look at it from the points of view that we all experience of the points of light on that person sort of person, but not necessarily of the same things as what you did.

    [02:08:09]

    But it might be to see how you live your life and the way your energy comes from and how and how you might be more resilient than other people and how you may be more telling.

    [02:08:27]

    I personally believe in them and God himself. So I understand. But as human beings, we don’t always have the same amount of energy to support outside of ourselves to see the outcome. It’s just a little bit more movement.

    [02:08:52]

    Yeah, for sure. Like, well, I’ll just the God first because Canton’s into the marriage. So I completely actually do appreciate all that. You know, you can’t be influenced by people because I know that I had my own sense of what spirituality is and then being around people who are not religious or spiritual or how they’ve used that to become purpose themselves also strengthened my faith as well. So I do completely accept that that can rub off on someone.

    [02:09:27]

    I believe it is their own choice, whether that or not that happens. And I wouldn’t be that to tacitly influence anyone to do such a thing. But if it did happen for them, they thought that’s what was best for them. Then they then that is great. You know, that is a great thing I wouldn’t take credit for, obviously, because, you know, I believe in God. So it wouldn’t be me. But it’s a difficult one because I do for me, it is it is a fundamental knowing and a belief.

    [02:09:58]

    And it kind of goes into the marriage, like I completely understand where you’re coming from, you know, legal agreement and everything that I personally do believe in a spiritual element of marriage, whether or not that’s in a church or not. But we’ll get married at church or anything like that. But I do feel like there is a spiritual energy and alignment when two people do agree to spend a lot of our lives together, for better or for worse and for me is completely spiritual element of things.

    [02:10:29]

    I see marriage as the highest relationship you can probably have with another person other than, you know, children on this Earth. And I think that aside from whatever financial government, I’m not that person to really believe in all that. But for me, the marriage element is a purely spiritual thing. Thank you. Thanks. You know, when there’s bits of you that are confused about what you actually believe yourself, what do you do with those bits when you’re dating?

    [02:11:19]

    Emotion, well, I I had quite a deep faith, I worked as a missionary overseas, something other than my husband died and I lost it all. And so I find this one of the difficulties, terrorism, dating. So I just I’d rather just ignore it. And, yeah, it’s probably quite important as an issue. So it’s interesting that we’re talking about because most I tend to avoid it most of the time because I’m like, I don’t know, I don’t know where I’m at with it myself.

    [02:11:48]

    It’s strange to hear you talking about it because it’s one of those areas that I was so profoundly Mogwai that I’m just like I just I just I just don’t know. And that’s quite a hard it’s quite a hard, strange area for me. What caused the change? Sorry, because the change, the change, I mean, the secondary grief you have around grief, is this horrible what you lose as well as the person?

    [02:12:19]

    Yeah, we don’t with a widow who should really just just.

    [02:12:28]

    I think that’s that’s something that you can have know the discussion. That’s how you feel. You you undecided. I don’t think many of us are really very clear. It’s it’s something that we will work out or it’s something that we changes as we as we go through life and we get like these things happen in life that shake our beliefs and we change when they happen and what we believe changes. So I don’t think I mean, it depends on who you’re dating and it depends.

    [02:13:03]

    And a lot of people will never bring it up. I think it’s helpful to know because on the basis of connection is that for me, when I talk about connection, the first connection is to life is whatever it’s called, whatever. I think you have to have an answer to what is the context, what is the world we’re living in? Because if you if you look at life is again, something that you just play frivolously. But life is a game.

    [02:13:37]

    We were here in these limitations and things, and it’s about what is the meaning to that game. And that is where it’s important, not necessarily in relating to another person, but in knowing what’s the big picture that we’re playing within. And then it’s about connecting yourself, like, who am I who wears my identity within this big context? And then it’s to another person. What role does this person have and what what contract do we have, what agreement that we have, what are our responsibilities to each other and then to the wider world.

    [02:14:13]

    So it’s not necessarily something that you need to have clear. It’s just the more aware you are of wherever you stand on that, I think is helps guide yourself.

    [02:14:26]

    What do you mean when you say come to life?

    [02:14:30]

    So. In terms of connection, the way I picture it is first of all, there’s a big circle and a big circle is. Our awareness, our experience of life, how we envisage what life is, so we all go somewhere and sometime have the question of why did this happen? What you know, why? Why does anything happen? Why are we alive? What’s the point of life? And that’s that big connection, that big circle, does that make sense?

    [02:15:07]

    You’re saying we ask, why are we alive, why are we here? Yeah, I think you see, I think ultimately I mean, I started from the other end with relationship problems. And then when you go, why is that happen? What causes that to happen? What caused that to happen? And it eventually boils down to people’s disagreements or about their disagreements of what life is about, why, you know, when you look at war, war mostly, it’s either politically motivated for for greed and for land grab or power or it’s about fundamental belief of of what is called.

    [02:15:45]

    When you look at the difference between England and America, it’s a difference between God empowers the queen and God allows free will. Does that make sense? OK, let me go a little bit more so. So basically everything that we do and everything we believe has a structure and it has a foundation underneath that. And when you get back to the core belief, the core belief is the question of what is my what is my life about? You know, why are we here?

    [02:16:29]

    What is existence for? How did we come to be here and it’s all the kind of questions that little child asks and in our everyday life we don’t examine them. But when you look at problems, problems come back really to this cool. Core belief or core understanding, and so most of us have never really worked out because we were never at school, were given a religious dogma and were given someone’s idea that most of the time we never really worked out the big questions unless and I think this is what the issue was, was Kettner, is that she wants someone who’s looking at going beyond politics and beyond the everyday life and like understanding what life’s about and growing in that sense.

    [02:17:21]

    And I think that that’s the connection to life. Does that make it any clearer? Betty? So are you saying that a person’s answer to the questions, why am I here, what is life for is their belief system and that belief system is what drives their life that will underpin everything that they do.

    [02:17:46]

    So questions of what I’m doing is meaningless, you know, when people feel like doing that. So basically, I think people have three questions. How can I like what do I have that’s of value to the world and how can I survive and make a living? How do I belong? Who loves me and who do I love? And then the last question is, does my life matter? Did I make a difference? And in order to answer that, you’ve got to have some sense of meaning.

    [02:18:21]

    So questions of purpose, of feeling that you have value, feeling that you you matter and you have any meaning to life, relate to that core belief here.

    [02:18:38]

    Can you give those three again, please? Yes. The first one is is really about strength, is that success is about money. It’s about do I have value for the world? The second one is, do I belong? So who loves me? And I love to who do I love? And the last one is, do I matter? Did I make any difference in the world? So would that be possession’s possessive that you use that term?

    [02:19:12]

    The second one. No, no, no. The first the first one is basically the basic question is, can I live? Can I survive? And then it say, and once you’ve assured survival, it’s about, can I fry it? And then it’s about sort of status like where do I have value? Am I? Where am I in the pecking order? The second one is about the second one is about love is about does anyone care about me?

    [02:19:41]

    Do I care about who do I care about? And it’s about feeling loved, feeling that you belong like we are deeply tribal animals and we need to feel that we belong somewhere. So belonging so so like a beautiful woman will complain about never being loved, who she is just because she’s pretty. People like her, someone who’s rich, were worried that someone only loved them for the money. So it’s beyond the real me. Like, if you really see me, we really like me.

    [02:20:22]

    I agree with you definitely. On your belief system, independent evaluations stuff, obviously, I haven’t said that as eloquently as well what you did and. But yeah, because it does it does drive forward and everything I mean, going back to I think and I know what you said before about the semantics of religion, but I think it’s really important to kind of differentiate, differentiate between the two. And I might be wrong, but I think me in a Alicia.

    [02:21:04]

    Bashing from the same hymn sheet and in God is simply love, and you don’t need to go into the when a or grown a beard or either machine around it just simply it’s just simply love. My personal belief is that this particular place where we are now, if the one reason or another is attached. And it’s not the true reality and not on the pun on the Penge, my beliefs. So in terms of death, the technically there’s no death in my belief because we will go on to what will be the tendency and for that reason that those have a huge impact on how I live my life, not because I feel I have to adhere to a certain set of rules or that if I don’t do that, I’ll end up in hell or anything like that.

    [02:22:14]

    I just think, well, it’s all about love then. A best kind of. Exhibit that as much as you possibly can, because otherwise the evidence. Then it really isn’t about loving the axis of evil and I don’t want to be evil. That’s the that’s what’s really interesting is so so I always look at religion and I think that. Buddha never said Buddhism. Jesus never set up Christianity, and Jesus actually said in the Sermon on the Mount.

    [02:22:53]

    Don’t do this. And they exactly did pretty much what he said not to do so. But the social structure will always use whatever there’s always going to be, political elements come in. And so when you have a big social structure, it becomes about control. And so what what has allegedly happened through history is that. The church, your belief systems have been shaped by what’s politically, politically expedient. So, for example, there’s a there’s a belief that Christians used to believe in reincarnation.

    [02:23:37]

    And it was.

    [02:23:40]

    Constantinople or something like that, Konstantin? Yeah, couldn’t he couldn’t get the soldiers to to follow his will because they thought, well, I’m not gonna kill you, kill people when it’s wrong because. They had the belief in reincarnation, and so they phased out the belief in reincarnation from the Christian texts, but there are.

    [02:24:12]

    There’s lots of examples, you know, like when you go to the selling of indulgences and things like that, where religion has been used to change people’s behavior for political reasons. So so, yeah, I think there’s a difference, and whenever you whenever you look at like a big organization, then it’s going to be. It’s controlled by by humans and humans are going to they you know, they said that really seems like when you have one man, when you say one man is infallible, like in the papal system, then what you’ve basically said is you’ve given you the strength of the purity of the religion accounts on the integrity and the strength and the authenticity of the whole lineage of pope.

    [02:25:10]

    And then you have to say, like, did the smoke coming out, does that really is that really spiritual value or is this a story that someone said so? So, yeah, I think that’s that has a real influence on how our behavior is shaped today in Hinduism, that they have gods like Ganesh I elephants.

    [02:25:36]

    And yet Hindus are very, very spiritual people who also believe in reincarnation because Buddhism I think actually comes back. But they don’t they don’t take their religion in a serious way, I don’t think as. Well, other religions, so I don’t think I don’t think they take it literally. I think basically it’s pretty hard to find a fundamentalist and wanting to kill Muslims because obviously so the fundamentalists just tend to be violent. I don’t think they actually believe in the literal.

    [02:26:15]

    So it’s Hinduism’s a bit of a misnomer, what is basically. None of the none of these religions, because you’ve got Christianity on one of the Ten Commandments, is thou shalt not kill.

    [02:26:30]

    Yes, Christianity tends to tends to believe a lot of sects of Christianity tend to favor the New Testament. But generally, a lot of a lot of the religions tend to view is a little bit. I think it’s like history, but it’s a which I certainly don’t believe in, things like the Covenant, you know, knocking down the walls of Jericho and stuff or people being turned into palace in Seoul or China being in a while. And that is the story.

    [02:27:01]

    So there’s a bit of folklore. But Jesus basically a person who probably existed, God knows what happened. It was explicitly the most popular story. And I agree that religion has been for political reasons, but that’s because it was such an effective form of conflict just by the Romans, who was constantly using that, because he was that it was when the Romans adopted it that it really took off. And it was basically so so it was kind of like a weapon.

    [02:27:28]

    The Romans were using it in that way, obviously. So, again, I think they were using it as a weapon.

    [02:27:37]

    And religion was a genuine Bulimba, I think. But I’m in a. It’s weird, isn’t it, because I don’t know, Christianity is all about love and basically it has been distorted by the established church. I mean, the whole I mean, I was raised a Catholic. My parents are both Catholics. My mom is going to take many times and still gets into trouble because of that, because she thinks that women should have a more active role in the church and she gets tired of priests.

    [02:28:08]

    You have a woman job. How could you have that in the country the way it is, the moment, it’s just not going to fit into this country.

    [02:28:19]

    But I think you have a difference between Hinduism, for example, and, say, Christianity and cleaning up. Yeah, well, there is no stated head of the Hindu faith. If you think about it, there is no pope is no equivalent. And my understanding is that it is what you make it. Your version of Hinduism is what you make it very, very, very individualized.

    [02:28:47]

    So many gods as you want to watch it, the main ones. And you have those who worship Shiva and those who worship what’s their name and so on, so, so forth. And I can’t remember them now. I can remember, but yeah. But it is very fluid and it is what you. The ones that you choose to subscribe to, that you base your faith around and of course, you have the temples and the holy man and the, you know, the the priests, etcetera, etcetera, but there is no hierarchical structure.

    [02:29:24]

    You know, that part, Archbishop, blah, blah, blah.

    [02:29:28]

    You know, those kinds of structures of the court system. The court system is not there. I have to you have to be very careful there.

    [02:29:40]

    It’s it’s entwined in the in the system. But and it’s part and parcel of the socialization, the culture and everything. You have to be careful, though. It’s not something that they it’s not a worship. It’s not something in a script. The Scriptures like, for example, in a Bible that says that there’s a whole social construct. And I agree with you, it’s not the Muslims who believe that. But nonetheless, I think what I’m getting from what Rob was saying is that there is this man made structure, that this person has this.

    [02:30:20]

    He is almost inside living embodiment of God that’s infallible and what he decrees you ought to not question and follow.

    [02:30:32]

    And I think that’s where it becomes very difficult because we are thinking beings in the Bovis boxes isn’t too bad. But the last one was a bit of a. Conservative, I was going to use another word that it began with Ed. And this other these other strictures to try to keep you in line, and I think that’s what some people have difficulty with, why is it that you can’t question and you need to obey unquestioningly when you actually and then when you seek to get answers, you get that do not work.

    [02:31:14]

    They will not answer the questions that you have. I remember my son when he was about eight, he started to ask questions because I’m doing my my my duty. I’m taking my son to church. And he asked a deacon a question. And the response that the man gave him was to give him a book, to read it and read it.

    [02:31:36]

    And he says, Mommy, this makes no sense because I am out of it.

    [02:31:43]

    And that’s the that’s the thing, is that it’s and I think as a child, to go to a Catholic school, you kind of learn to live with that responsibility. Doesn’t really make any sense of substantiation, doesn’t really make any sense. But there are certain parts that you kind of have to to be a Catholic. There are certain that you have to believe, even if you don’t believe them. But, you know, all you have to do is watch for the tapes to realize the person I’ve always been questioning and the questions all the time.

    [02:32:13]

    And I’ve had really positive experiences. Yeah, they mean my aunt was a nun as well as. Interestingly enough, actually, my dad was in the seminary and my mother was formally announced as well, basically. So in an alternative universe, I probably don’t exist. I mean, they both left by the time that they got married and had me basically by the side of my dad. They had both of them left because they didn’t like the established the.

    [02:32:42]

    Organized, organized religion is basically a domestic violence relationship. It’s love the stars it massively into the conversation so she can tell you what doesn’t.

    [02:32:52]

    I think Islam has that and as well, doesn’t it is there if there are plenty of books which which is supposed, you know, laws that you can basically go to the you know, the religious person and get something done or you can write your book.

    [02:33:07]

    Yeah, but what I mean by that is this is look, that’s not love is the passion and domestic violence relationship with believe that they in love. But that’s not true. True love because of manipulation. And why is manipulation that because of power. And that’s what religion is doing. But it’s a distortion of love.

    [02:33:29]

    Yeah. Well, Bob always kind of says, and I agree with him here, is that it isn’t this isn’t religion, is it using religion? It’s not. It’s a different thing, isn’t it? Because you could criticize Bresson’s for going to war, whether it be in Iraq or Afghanistan. But that doesn’t mean to say someone who was British, who lives in the. And I have made a mess of its popularity is like nothing else is like Christianity particularly.

    [02:34:07]

    I mean, Islam is still massively violent as well. I think it’s been the fastest growing religion for. Feel like I feel like obviously like go in if I was going to relate about such relationships and enchantment and everything that, you know, when I say a belief in God would have to underpin the relationship, I’m going to live by the sort of idea that everything that infinite love is the only truth and everything else is illusion. And I feel like anything the way that I see life is anything that causes people to separate and be divided into different categories like Christianity, Islam, black, white, straight, gay.

    [02:34:48]

    That is all I see as a method of control, because the way that I see the world and I see human beings and why we’re here is that we’re all meant to connect, which incidentally, we’re all meant to connect, and that all barriers that have been put in between us are actually all methods of separating us as a unified force. And I think by the people who have to put those things in place know that because they try to rob us humans of our own infinite power, which is what we all live.

    [02:35:20]

    So that’s my philosophy. And I would struggle to be in a relationship with somebody who was to see the external as order is like if they were just like if they kept on talking about, oh, you know, as a Portuguese man or as a black man, or if I’d be like, yeah, but that’s not actually who you are. And I feel like the ability for somebody to see past what we’ve been told for our whole lives shows not only to the strength of character, but also a strength of love that I’d want to be facilitating my relationship.

    [02:36:00]

    And also, if you were to have kids and not be great, if they would be up to raise in that way as well. I think I mean, I totally agree with you 100 percent on everything that you said there, but you’ve got to remember that if you would have if you would have said that to me 10 years ago, I wouldn’t have agreed with all. And people people do. And grow on people to learn and people at the same time they learn the online stuff, don’t they, as well.

    [02:36:32]

    So you can become more ignorant as you grow older, you don’t know. Everybody becomes more more educated. So I think that’s something else to bear in mind, especially because of the infinite luggage. The only truth and everything is an illusion. Because of that, you’ve got to look past the illusions. Because you if someone doesn’t believe it or they blinded by illusions. So I would say, as my father and myself, to try to help them to remove those illusions, if I if I felt that I wanted to have a relationship with them, if they were completely ignorant and said, no, no, no, no, it’s a case of, you know, when you die, the whims get it and that’s it.

    [02:37:21]

    Fine. There’s not a lot you can do about it. Do you think that, you know, politics in a totally unbiased and all of that and and it’s not about power, it’s about whatever. Yeah, there’s a there’s things you can work with in understanding the essence. But I think you’ve got to give some people the benefit of the doubt because I certainly would require that. Michelle. I completely accept that, yeah, I do see the.

    [02:37:50]

    So this is the deep conversations that you want to have. Yeah, because I feel like that’s what really matters. I think, you know. I just I just know myself so strongly that there’s so many things that I believe been taught that actually lie about who we are, and I feel like you know so much to Alan. I do believe that while we’re on this earth, it is meant to be in some ways a test. But as your spiritual evolution, I think that to just stay and disbelieve, you get older and then you die.

    [02:38:25]

    There’s so much more that you can learn about yourself and learn about the world. And I think when you believe and you can have those conversations, you deep, deep connection with yourself, you deeply connection and your true love with children, with other human beings, with the earth. And it’s not about being, you know, let’s all hold hands and sing on a tray. It’s about actually it’s just about the willingness to see beyond what we’ve just been told.

    [02:38:51]

    I think it’s just like more of a wider perception of what there actually is to know. And I think that is what I find beautiful and someone I want to can have that type of conversation. This is why I’m not worried about the hi. I’m not worried about anything. I don’t know. People are all of them. Like, no, you don’t understand, because to have conversations like that with other people is for me, what honestly we’re here for.

    [02:39:18]

    And then to make a change out of that as well. So what you’re saying is that there’s no limitations on being limited by the illusions that’s presented to you?

    [02:39:30]

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because. I you know, you unlearn as you write, you unlearn things we can’t do that we’re too big for that. You’re too young for that. Too old for that. And I think those are all lies. Get rid of them. And that’s what I try to live my life doing and help other people to see that in themselves as well. And if I was with someone who was just like, no, you know, well, you know, it’s never going to call when you can’t dream about.

    [02:39:57]

    I’d be like the relationship I have with somebody else in the intimate way is meant to be the place we can both foster purposes in life. And that’s what I feel like a relationship should be. The sounds it sounds like the Matrix would be an ideal, first, I have to take a a red and blue pill.

    [02:40:22]

    I might take the red and then I slowly, like you should say that I’ve seen the Matrix a few times. And I mean, I, I don’t believe in this code with business. I think it’s absolute bullshit. And I think it’s about it’s about power. We all have addictions in life. Problem is, if you’re addicted to power, you’re going to be nebulous. People who are beneath you to fulfill your addictions. And anyone with an addiction wants more and more is never enough.

    [02:40:54]

    So for me, this is all about an addiction to power. I don’t see anything to do with health. I don’t believe, despite working with the NHS, that Western medication is here to help us. I see patients come in day in, day out with different symptoms, different problems, getting the same drugs, never getting and never happy, always in pain. All of the alternative therapies appropriate if you’ve got a view which is different to anybody else, like an individual.

    [02:41:29]

    Again, that’s that’s stupid. You can’t you can’t have your own opinion. And that is about control. It’s all about control. It’s all about being manipulated. And, you know, from personal experience, I had like a really bad injury. And he wanted to do all sorts of surgery on me. And I just went down and I went down a prayer and I went down the list of medications. They healed within a couple of months. And that was an injury for seven years that I was led to believe would never get better.

    [02:42:09]

    And so, I mean, we can we can self heal and we can do that in more ways than one. And we don’t require I mean, like, I seen something the other day about a lion in a cage and it said it said this lion has access to all the food that needs all the medical care it needs. It’s got sex on top. And then you had a picture of a line in the wild and it said this line at any point could die, but it’s free.

    [02:42:48]

    Which one would you rather be not? That’s what we’re facing as human beings. Right? Right now I know which one I would choose. Now, never going to be free in the UK. Actually. The man. Now, that’s up to us to make an individual stand, there’s not a. They’re already sharpening their sabers. I do feel, though, like because it can be lost, because my parents and they’re not really spiritual or anything like that either.

    [02:43:28]

    And it’s all doom and gloom. I’m not saying that if you’re not if you’re not spiritual, it’s going to be doom and gloom. I’m not saying that at all. But like, I do feel like because they believe so much and what the news says, what they’ve been taught in school, it does it can make you feel you lose that spirit inside of yourself, I believe has a hope or, you know, you believe in the good rather than just the bad.

    [02:43:51]

    You know what I mean? It’s a slow condition where you just conditioned to think, well, you know, there’s nothing we can do. I don’t think that, you know, as I also like to fight back, you have to have that internal gentle spirit of having a gentle courage and knowing that real reality is people can’t take away the most important part of yourself. And, you know, you are free then like, you know you know what people said, who’s that guy who was in concentration camps?

    [02:44:19]

    And he was I was actually with a friend.

    [02:44:22]

    And it was that Viktor Frankl. Yes. And he was he freed his mind during that time. He told other people to do as well. And I think that is a power that we all have within us. Hmm.

    [02:44:35]

    I don’t believe that there’s necessarily a conspiracy, but I do think that people work for their own self-interest. And so when you look at Nazi Germany, they controlled the media so that they could control the propaganda of what people heard. And they also controlled the church. And so they they changed the national religion to Hitler being the God. And that’s really when you control what people believe, when you control what they hear, you control how they behave. And so there is and I think I think we have a real challenge.

    [02:45:19]

    You know, when you look at the social dilemma, then if you’ve seen that, but about how Facebook and Instagram, Snapchat and things and how they’re using our worst instincts against us and and I don’t think it’s like some. The conspiracy to create is just it’s in their interests to financially exploit our attention. And when you look at the big food industries, they’re exploiting our weakness for sugar right now so that they can create, you know, like if you have a potato, you can only sell it for so much.

    [02:46:00]

    If you sell it for chips that you sell it for a lot more. And if you sell it for crisps, you make so much more money from it. And so they naturally, all these industries, pharmaceutical industries and fundamentally, while we’re driven by capitalism and not saying that communism is any better or that, but the nature of capitalism is that we all work for our own greed, greed. And the belief is that the system will sort itself out.

    [02:46:29]

    But whenever we’re doing when we’re doing that, what what that means is that everything we hear, everything we believe, everything we know to be true is being given to us through an agenda. And that agenda then leads to the level of suicides, depression and anxiety that we have in society.

    [02:46:54]

    So there’s no I mean, there’s going to be books and there’s going to be people that say there is no real.

    [02:47:03]

    Fight for us to have our own voice, and so that is what we have to take individually and part of us is that we want to belong to groups as well.

    [02:47:15]

    Yeah. And so there is a I wouldn’t call it confusion, but it’s a tension that we all face. On one hand, we want to be seen as individuals with our own unique set of characteristics.

    [02:47:31]

    And on the other hand, we want to be part of whatever group. And some of us belong to several groups. So we are faced with choices at every turn. Be political, religious. Well, Facebook is almost becoming a religion, too. Things if you look at it. No, it’s true. It’s it’s not the social media in general, you know, so they did in their own way there. Each one is given a set of rules or habits that you need, that you take on to yourself.

    [02:48:15]

    So you are this composition of these various things that you will do to conform to whichever group that you want to fit in. And as I was saying then, you’re exploited because you are susceptible to the things that are being sold to satisfy those needs for belonging to those various groups.

    [02:48:37]

    And that is a form of control. They need to be without you even realizing that these things are happening to you. And that is part and parcel of I don’t believe in, you know, the Illuminati and all of those conspiracy theories and that there’s some great big manipulator of all of us. I think we are allowing ourselves to be manipulated by various groups, the capitalistic system or the religious, whichever religious grouping that we align ourselves to.

    [02:49:09]

    And as a result of that, we are at a place now where, in a sense, we are commodified for want of a better word, and also and we are running the risk of being dehumanized to some extent. And in that whole hodgepodge of all these various conflicting things that are are pulling and pushing at us, we if we’re not careful, we lose our individuality, we lose our sense of self, and also we lose some of our ability to trust.

    [02:49:48]

    We become very distrustful. And maybe that’s why the dating game, bringing it back to the individual level. We have all these various issues with opening up to other people.

    [02:50:05]

    So it’s a concept in which we find ourselves, I think it’s both that the bigger global one, the national the community and then ourselves, but it’s all of these anomaly, I suppose, in times gone by. It would be the culture of the community that you would find yourself in and the workplace. But now with social media, there are no defined boundaries. It’s all coming at you because it’s there. It’s at your fingertips. I did some I did some training today, and I can’t remember the exact term, but we might be able to help me out.

    [02:50:44]

    But the trainer basically asked us some questions. It was like blunt questions or open questions or something like that. And it was about working through your problems. So they would ask you the question. You would hope the group would answer individually. And and then one of the questions was. If you had ultimate power, ultimate money. Ultimate strength, what would you do with that? And I thought an image in my mind of the Lord of the Rings and Wisoff, I think Gladiolus and I like that she is like the female elven leader.

    [02:51:28]

    And she was like the epitome of good for anybody who’s not seen all the rings. And she was offered the ring and the ring was the ring of power. And she declined the ring and she said. And basically decline in the ring of power because rather than the dark lord, you have to have a dark lady. And that was the image that comes to mind when I was asked that question, if you had because you basically did the thing was you’ve got a problem, write down what your particular problem is and then you work through these different points to find out how to resolve it.

    [02:52:02]

    And as I said, the question was, if you had those many ultimate power or ultimate influence, what would you do? And I answered nothing. And the reason I did nothing was because if you had all of those things, there were all of those things would corrupt you and would turn you into the very thing that you hate. Now, the reason I’m mentioning that is because it goes back to the power element, the symbolism of the Catholic Church, which is which is the pope.

    [02:52:35]

    Now, if you look at a dragon, a dragon, which is basically the symbol of Satan and a dragon always sits on a big pile of gold and goes to sleep on gold, and the more it has, the better, even though it isn’t the best, it just wants more. And gold is money, isn’t it? And that’s exactly what power is. Power is money and money is corrupting. Enough is never, ever enough. And when you’ve got all of these organizations, I mean, you look at the history now and you’ve got all of these shops that that closed down all these independent businesses and within itself, what’s the problem with that?

    [02:53:17]

    Well, it reduces choice. And when choices reduced, that means we are funneled into certain places. So it’s not actually that shutting down, it’s not schools that shut that you’re independent, small businesses that are shutting down. So all the money is going into places that’s already got money and. It’s Project Fear at the moment. There’s a lot of people who who are afraid, which were never afraid before, and again, when you’re afraid your choices are reduced because of things that you would have chosen to do, you don’t able to do because, you know, now afraid or how does that relate to what we’re here for tonight, which is relationships?

    [02:54:07]

    Well. Fear is a big problem for a fragile, isn’t it? And fear can be all consuming, and it’s like a poison that runs through everybody’s life. And when one thing becomes fearful that poison can make things which are seemingly unrelated, fearful as well. And I think one of the most important messages that we should all take to is not succumbing to fear because fear is simply an illusion. It doesn’t exist. As we’ve mentioned on other occasions during these sessions, the angel exists feed audience.

    [02:54:50]

    But it’s that fear they like we were talking about earlier. When someone approaches you in an unexpected situation or when something unexpected that can. Reduce fear. But wouldn’t it be better for it to be produce excitement’s instead? Because there’s always something different. There’s always another side to something. And and what happens if we show if we choose to adopt the positive side as opposed to the negative side? I think then that will enable us to experience different things and will open doors, which we were previously previously SHEL’S.

    [02:55:35]

    So, yeah, I think that I think everything essentially boils down to the. Is the difference between fair and danger, the fair is our perception, whereas danger is real. Yeah. Because I mean, I don’t want to bang on about religion, but you’ve got a story of Daniel going into the lion’s den now, technically that could be seen as a dangerous situation. But if we go back to what Alicia is it Alicia, Alicia? OK, if you go back to what Alicia said in terms of.

    [02:56:25]

    In terms of love or faith, his faith is simply love, Lisa and Alicia. Thank you. Faith is simply love. And if we have love, which is the opposite of evil and within fear and within evil is fear, now we fear something then that can cause us harm. It’s only when we don’t fear something that it loses its ability to cause us harm. So technically, the angel doesn’t exist either. But I don’t think faith I think faith is belief is not enough to keep faith in practical things as well.

    [02:57:10]

    My faith and when you take a pen to an exam, you have faith that that pen will not. One of the things you’ll be looking to get in my car to drive to Scotland. I have faith journey. That’s not there’s no love element that. But you could also have be close up fear when they talk about a leap of faith and that’s always about life. So it’s a leap of faith is where the facts are, not facts. When you decide that you’re going to complete the end yourself and from your from your mind in that way.

    [02:57:49]

    What would you say is the difference between fear and danger?

    [02:57:57]

    So when I’m listening to Alan, what I’m hearing is, is that basically there’s two forces, love and fear, and so faith is fueled from love. So what’s to say? What would I say? My definition of danger is something. That is. A consequence like an actual damage control, something that can actually hurt you. And fear is. The emotion that you have around that. And just a risk, because the. If there is, there is an emotional response.

    [02:58:43]

    I do agree with you because we because we did speak about this at the previous session, the I think Sasha was quite. She was pretty excited because we could definitely agree, I think. And then it took a while. Yeah, I’m just asking because a lot of time, obviously, we live in fear and we let fear stop us from doing the things that we want to do in life. Is it a question of stepping back and asking, can this actually harm me?

    [02:59:15]

    And if the answer is no, it can’t harm me, then we realize it’s actually just an emotional reaction or our perception that we’re overlaying a situation. Could you? I think that that’s that’s that’s really what I think are the main centrally and that’s with what he’s saying. So he’s saying that the people who hold us back in our lives when we’re making decisions are ourselves and we choose. Sometimes we just choose to take the easy way, which is to do nothing, I suppose, because you’re afraid of taking a risk, like in a relationship, any relationship is a risk and showing yourself to someone or making yourself vulnerable, which you be when you risk.

    [03:00:01]

    A lot of people like the guy, Richard, he was saying it wasn’t he was saying that he’s worried about that fear most prevents him from moving forward as if he got himself back because he almost doesn’t want to go to that next step. And I think people still have to hold you back, and so Fairfield is limiting, the fear is limiting, whereas faith is unlimited. Because fear, as I said earlier on, it removes choice. Yes, that’s very.

    [03:00:38]

    So where is what led you to say in Iran, he has a choice, but one of those choices he’s removed from his. And Arsenal, as it were, or whatever, because if it is, yeah. So we might, you know, let’s let’s go back to the dating scene, he might be my fancy somebody, but we’ll never, ever asked them out because we feel that they’ll say no. We fear that we might be humiliated.

    [03:01:09]

    We fear that if they do say yes, what are you going to talk to them about? You know, there’s loads of different elements to facial fiorucci very, very restrictive, but often fear is just simply made up in your head and, you know, the Nazis. They were absolutely brilliant at creating fear, communist creating fear. Now we’ve got this fear outside, don’t wear a mask. So they do wear a mask. Don’t cause I don’t want to go outside.

    [03:01:45]

    So you’ve got the confusion. Chaos. Chaos creates fear.

    [03:01:52]

    One but one way of dealing with that is to be able to make informed decisions, and that is get but I suppose that’s what we are doing here. We’re discussing and we are gaining insight into some of the things that would affect our levels of air.

    [03:02:14]

    Because fear is also a part of fear is also ignorance in a sense, and if we can at least get insights into some of those areas where we have no information or no knowledge, then that may contribute to reducing that level of fear.

    [03:02:36]

    The problem with social media, like we were discussing earlier, is that there are lots and lots of agents that actually are spreading misinformation in the American election is that we definitely know that in 2016 there was a lot of misinformation, probably by the Russians or possibly by the Chinese as well, that that’s become a new weapon. And they’re probably spreading some of the rhinovirus because there’s probably an intent to destabilize Western culture. So you got that at the end as well.

    [03:03:06]

    And that probably actually is a real.

    [03:03:10]

    But the reason why that is so successful in some instances is that we have lost the ability or we have become very lazy. We don’t query, we don’t ask questions as much as we should. And in some instances, we don’t we don’t have the right vocabulary to ask the right questions.

    [03:03:32]

    As a result of that, and sometimes we’re just not curious about certain things, we we have our set interests and we just take it for granted that what is said is and as a result of that, we are susceptible to being fed a diet of misinformation that we just go along with rather than question.

    [03:03:58]

    And we accept it from our politicians when our politicians talk in a straight manner of life is sort of my my life. So there have been very few arguments, straight, direct manner. They all got around subjects, avoid questions that will become very good and we accept in our leaders. So it really is unacceptable, particularly in a situation like this where, you know, you’ve got big economic areas and you’ve also got something which looks like a pandemic, as well as the possible public health crisis and the problems with the NHS and also the, you know, the economic issues as well.

    [03:04:38]

    That’s something that you need direct contact.

    [03:04:41]

    Well, actually, part of that, too, wouldn’t you say, if there is a part of that fear of retribution, fear of what the others will say, fear of being different leaders, making a decision of questioning certain things here of you can they’re constrained because they’re worried about if they make a decision and something happens, a man with a gun that they were afraid of that.

    [03:05:07]

    So that’s holding them back.

    [03:05:08]

    So it wasn’t that much time studying that.

    [03:05:13]

    But it’s interesting enough as well. The way that I look at it is in terms of dating, if if everyone would just like be really honest about who they were, you know, present themselves well said, like send a message to everyone that they were interested in dating, just be really honest, really authentic and just message everyone. You would soon find someone. It’s our fear that holds us back in everything that we do, like in the fear of public speaking and the fear of what other people think in most of our lives are controlled by what other people think.

    [03:05:55]

    You know, the car that we buy. The house house that we buy. We live in. The person we marry. All of these things are mostly done to please other people.

    [03:06:07]

    And so what are we controlled by what they think or what we think they think by our perception of what they think, and so we’re we’re all like this says we’re all hamstrung by our own fears. And then the organizational the cultural representation of this is the political system that we have.

    [03:06:33]

    And the political system that we have is basically designed to maintain the status quo, not one, not necessarily. It’s about not wanting to deal with the truth. We don’t have the truth because we don’t want the truth. So if you look at if you look at we have a high level of obesity and we have a high level of obesity because basically we don’t want to give up the foods that we want and we don’t want to exercise as much as we want.

    [03:07:02]

    And so we there are so many diets because they start won’t work because I don’t I don’t want to be on reduced calories. So this diet promises me that I can have everything that I want and it’s really easy. And so we’re always looking for the magic bullet. And in the same way politics is about, we don’t really want the truth. The real truth is we’re going to pay more tax or have less services. And that is the core truth.

    [03:07:30]

    But the truth is never going to be elected because the mass of the population is going to go for what they want. They’re going to go for the magic bullet, which is why that looks like some some madcap diet is going to be the best selling book. But the one that says there’s no simple things, it’s this is this is this people on. And I’ve heard a lot of I want the real solution. And it’s the same thing with politics.

    [03:08:01]

    We don’t we have a political system that lets us not have to confront the half truths. We’re going to be able to stop controlling the flow. Yeah, I think everything has a breaking point. And I think I think societally we’ve got we’ve come to a point where I think, you know, in Manchester, there’s a stand off. In Paris, there’s riots. In Berlin, there is disturbances we’ve had in America for well over and also for the Black Lives Matter and the police things.

    [03:08:41]

    I think we’ve come to a stage where, you know, the system is broken and we’re going to have to deal with that as a society.

    [03:08:51]

    And I think so when you say that people don’t want the truth, do you think that’s because people are lazy or people are delusional?

    [03:09:00]

    Well, it’s not necessarily lazy, but it’s it’s that. From an individual level, you’ve gone out, you’ve been born into a culture and you’ve been told that this is what you have to do, and so people go out to work and then I come home and then that’s hard and I don’t know really well in some. Hi. You know, there’s a percentage of people that are really looking for the deeper questions and I think, you know, we’re all interested and we’re curious, but generally people are looking at the Kardashians because it’s easy.

    [03:09:34]

    You know, it’s like junk food is is easy watching the Kardashians and Love Island. And those things are entertaining but not nutritious.

    [03:09:47]

    That’s what I mean. The vast majority of people are lazy or, you know, I like general studies back in 2013, 2014, because Cameron, he looked like he was trying to have lots of referendums. And obviously we had lots of referendums in his back. And we had we had voting rights. We had Scottish one. But we had perhaps at the moment when we hadn’t had one before that since we bought from a monarchy in the 70s. And one of the things they found when they went and did a big survey and talked to a lot of people, a lot of people just like they want to follow and then just be governed and be told what to do.

    [03:10:31]

    A lot of people said it was it was sort of like 70 percent of all the people they spoke about. And I said, vote for you and then we expect you to go and govern and leave us up. Well, I think it’s just Nigel. Jobs, the governance of governance, governance, and also what you also have to look at is what we’re dealing with now. You know, back when there was a tribe of 150 people, pretty much everyone understood what was going on.

    [03:11:05]

    We’ve got health minister that isn’t qualified. He doesn’t really know, you know, what Boris Johnson know about, you know, anything? Well, yeah, I’m sounding like him. But what does he know about a virus? What does he know? He you know, he’s got contradictory opinions and he’s going to go through every place. What does he really know about education? So it’s it’s we’re picking people on the ideology and really how democracy works is you going for the mass market, which is going to be Sun readers?

    [03:11:46]

    It’s going to be whatever some readers understand is what gets the vote. And when you look at American elections, when they when they vote it down, it comes down to who has the simplest slogan. And Trump’s Trump’s make America great. No one’s going to misunderstand that anything more meaningful, anything is really going to address change is more complex and symbolic.

    [03:12:12]

    But yes, we got that. Yeah. And basically, whoever wins politics is whoever can boil it down to the lowest common denominator. Because the fact of democracy is that when you look at education levels, there’s certain, you know, people have and it’s not necessarily people are bad people or whatever. It’s just that if you’re not academic and you’re not understanding, you don’t really take things in by reading them. You’re not really a deep thinker. You’re not really going to understand the real complexity of the politics that we have to govern a society like today.

    [03:12:50]

    And then when you add on to that, the fact that the misinformation and, you know, the media that we get is all partisan to certain policy, politics and policies, then people don’t really know what they’re voting for and they don’t really know the details. And basically they haven’t addressed. You know, in our own lives, we haven’t addressed, like all of us, our problems are because we haven’t confronted the truth on whatever the issue is.

    [03:13:28]

    And so they’re. You know, I that and often we haven’t confronted it because we’re not aware of it, because we think because it doesn’t come as a as a straight choice. It comes masked in all these other cloaks, and so it’s usually that we haven’t had the time to think it through and really understand that clearly. Do you think it’s unfair to call the vast majority of people stupid, then, in terms of like the not the lowest common denominator?

    [03:14:04]

    It’s not it’s not the fact that you’re calling people stupid. It’s the fact of. Uninvolved is well is the fact that it takes a certain amount of energy, it takes a certain amount of time, effort and application and a certain level of, I don’t know, we want to say literacy or something.

    [03:14:29]

    But you’ve got like real deep issues of politics are not something that you’re going to read in the Sun newspaper. There’s something they’re going to take a lot more effort, a lot more involvement and a higher level of academic. Not saying that if someone hasn’t got degrees, they’re not intelligent. But what I’m saying is that they’re probably not going to wade through a 56 page policy document known as the real details of it. They’re going to get the 100 word article that sums it up and dumbs it down.

    [03:15:03]

    Yeah, I mean, I’m just thinking of the thing that if if you go on YouTube and the Kardashians posted a clip of some rubbish, it’s probably got a hundred million views. It sounds like critical thinking. It’s probably got five years. So the point is, it people just interested in rubbish.

    [03:15:18]

    It’s it’s the facts. And this is really applicable to dating. It’s not necessarily the fact that people are stupid, but when you write for someone you should write to, like someone who’s between 10 and 12, and the reason that you write in isn’t so that it’s because they’re not intelligent enough. It’s the fact it takes that little of their ability to process, because if you write to someone, a 20 year old level, they have to give it all their attention.

    [03:15:53]

    They might not have the time. They have to think it through. And so if you send someone a message on a dating site that’s really complex, it makes it harder for them to respond. It it means they’re less likely to. And it’s not because they’re not intelligent enough. It’s because they’ve got so many other demands on their time. And it’s probably not a priority right now. But we also have a situation where in jargon has become the order of the day and regardless of the then we can get bound up in jargon.

    [03:16:30]

    If you are a business person and you hear them talking about some of the things, just really just drive me crazy because it’s a different language. And so this clannish development of these bits of jargon, they are meant to exclude those who don’t belong to that clan and in the public domain.

    [03:16:56]

    As an as a public sector worker myself, you develop these detailed and very complex and you make them extra complicated and all kinds of background information that the average person will not read. The problem is that people do not take the time to communicate their thoughts in clear language that can be understood by the layperson. And and as a result of that and some of it is deliberate. So it’s obtuse. And no matter how they say that there is transparency and it’s on this website and it’s available to the average person, cannot read it, can you say you honestly understand the terms and conditions that you take every time you open an app and you say, I agree just in order to get to use that app if you don’t?

    [03:17:56]

    And so we are going we are guided by, in many respects what our peers see, that this is so because we we can’t digest what is in front of us. So we assume that these people are telling us, like they know many times that they really don’t know. But they have done the work. We think they have done the work for us. And so we join them and we go along with it because it sounds OK and it sounds all right because the world is complex, but we do not communicate, as Rob is saying.

    [03:18:30]

    You write for the layperson as a scientist writing stuff. I write with general in general words. I do not write, you know, that thing about or if you are of a certain educational level, you write words with five syllables and more to show how educated you are. And that’s that’s not the point.

    [03:18:55]

    The point is to get your meaning across to as many people as possible. And I think that’s what we have lost and government has lost. Well, not necessarily lost it. I think sometimes they are deliberate in it because it shields them. We have the discussion with us, the common person, I don’t want to be held accountable today.

    [03:19:17]

    Yeah, exactly, because I mean, specifically because you had problems where you had a bit of a weird opposition for a while, think I what used to be and what I want without being held accountable. And most of the press this story, you spilling over the BBC, which was one of the last bits of sort of left, and you’re you can have like what The Daily Mirror, The Guardian and the eye. And that will be everything else will be.

    [03:19:43]

    Right. I mean, that’s the way it’s got to basically. But this communication communication is the key to communication is the key and bad communication, I don’t mean one way transmission of information where you can have interaction and you can have explanation and also to ensure that the message that you’re putting out is received.

    [03:20:13]

    I’ve got to be on the other end of a lot about what coronavirus specifically?

    [03:20:19]

    I’ve got quite a lot of friends who are doctors and they’re not even getting information about what they’re hoping to find stuff in my bad reviews and journals to try and work out what’s going on. So no one’s even telling them. So if you’re in a country where you’re not selling your actual medical professionals, what’s. And what you do is basically. This pencil that he was saying, so I had to let this happen, I’m sure I’ve mentioned this before, but she was talking about the conversations.

    [03:20:46]

    And I just want to point out that Justin Bieber, I think he’s the highest personal Twitter users. He’s got a hundred million Twitter followers. Now, what’s the population of the UK like 68 million or something? So he’s got more than there are people in this country. There’s no way I’m not is quite something really quite that man could do quite a lot. He could probably actually storm the White House with these beeber people. Why would I hope if he said, I’m still in the White House, that they probably got the.

    [03:21:15]

    Well, I was just going to say by Baiba. Oh, well, yeah, can we vote for a hundred million? Yeah, that’s frightening.

    [03:21:29]

    So that’s the way it’s a different world.

    [03:21:34]

    It doesn’t mean the people necessarily I mean, some people do identify with it, but it’s a lot of it’s just it’s easy to say, you know, it’s easy to to to watch Kardashians. And it’s not necessarily that people aren’t capable of more, but sometimes, like if you’ve had a busy day at work and all you want is to veg out in front of the telly, then you’re going to watch Kardashians or listen to Justin Bieber or or something like that.

    [03:22:04]

    And it’s just people are stressed and have so many demands on their time. I think that’s true, but I also think it’s like the power of association as well, because the kind of thing like if you are, for example, like if I take one personal example, the people who I choose to spend my time around more do will encourage personal growth, you know, just basically improving yourself and always reading different things and stuff like that. So whether I like my life has changed just by being around more ambitious people.

    [03:22:40]

    But like before and this is not just for the annual because that will make a choice. And it’s not for me to judge whatsoever, but when I was hanging out with different people, doing different things. So I think that it is more like people find more power in the collective rather than them as an individual. And the thing. I personally do feel like it is a choice that people decide to make, I think everyone has that I had to be the one by everyone has a little niggling inside themselves that they are missing out on something like what they’re doing day to day isn’t necessarily what they should be doing.

    [03:23:16]

    They could be doing more. I think it depends on whether or not you answer the call, but I think that’s encouraged by the people that you to spending time with as well. I think, Rob, because that’s what you were saying earlier, watching the Kardashians or listening to Justin Bieber is, I think, about trying to fit in. You know, I remember when I first started work, you know, if you wanted to work in a city, you had to be able to drink.

    [03:23:42]

    If a guy or girl wants to fit in the office, you have to be able to talk about football if that’s not necessary. Case of that’s what you want to do. But it’s a case of unless you know about those subjects, you’re not going to fit in. Yeah, and and society, you you there’s always a group of people or just individuals who will hammer away at you for the choices that you make and you’ve got to really believe in what you’re doing, otherwise you will crumble.

    [03:24:16]

    I remember when I left university first and I went to. To work out my first fish farm and gentleman came from the bank and he said to me, what’s a pretty girl like you doing in all of this mud? You should be behind a desk serving people in the bank. And I looked at him and I said, Really? I don’t think so.

    [03:24:44]

    And even my mother said to me, I thought you would have been you would want to become a teacher, you know? And I said, No, no, no, no, no, no. And and as it was, I was the one of the first two females in Jamaica to be trained as an aquaculturist. Right. So that was different. And people would look at me, why are you doing this? You should in a suit, you know, you suit an air conditioned office and I’m know no, I’m make my jeans, shorts and my t shirt and I mean more than that, you know, even my flatmate used it.

    [03:25:29]

    Oh, God, you stink when you come home because you have all these fish all over you. And I was a pig in mud. I was very happy.

    [03:25:37]

    But society said, nah, you you are not conforming. You should not you know, why are you doing this? Why so? And you have to just love what you’re doing. Because I didn’t care. To me that was just not love. I was obsessed. OK, that was my calling as far as I was concerned. But for people. You know, it could be almost like, but how would you have don’t you want to get married and have children with this life?

    [03:26:14]

    You know, you can’t do that. And it’s not I didn’t know it’s either or. So you’re right.

    [03:26:23]

    It’s it’s you have to you have to know who you are. And it is difficult not to be bound by it, and I know you were talking about sort of Polyphemus going back to first principles and breaking it down. I don’t want to accept this. And you can’t if you go back too far, then, because even language finds it’s really just little things like. Anyone I can ever remember is that when you when you guys were left, everyone always faces the same way they all face the front.

    [03:26:58]

    And that’s just the norm. And if you actually go in and you face the bar and look at people, they get really freaked out. I actually experimented with that. I started a few things where I stood in line for a bit when I read it. And there are a few others as well as certain norms that people do. And if you like to use this, obviously as one as you can’t, you know, if you mess with KM’s, people get really, really annoyed basically.

    [03:27:22]

    And very quickly, even if you’re just so bad, you’re not actually trying to get this and some people freak out and that’s the thing. But, you know, you’ve got to have some concepts, I suppose, of. Because even language and I like we we all know that a table is a table and we can all communicate because we have a shared set of words which you’ll likely agree on the. So you have to kind of keep you kind of have to keep some norms and have some things that you all agree on.

    [03:27:54]

    There’s no one and no one, unfortunately, agrees on what she should say, what moment she should take, but that’s what the problem is.

    [03:28:02]

    It’s a process where on these things, you know, those things get thrown out.

    [03:28:07]

    That process of attrition fall into disuse over time. So they fall out of fall out of the picture, but.

    [03:28:18]

    If if if as a group, we consciously work at being part of a group, I think we subconsciously try to fit in. So there are certain characteristics that we might display as individuals that we curb or adjust so that we fit into that group. And and that’s the way we maintain some kind of, you know, cohesiveness. And as a result of that, the habits that we display, I suppose, become the norm then just like the words that we would use as your saying, you know the language.

    [03:29:04]

    Yeah, I mean, I don’t know, my first job was my first proper job, so it was was working for an Irish construction and for me that was quite an unknown. And there were quite a lot of alpha males and I didn’t really fit in. And obviously I was quite sort well-educated in the middle. And they were like these later body ball, like big blokes with like muscles and tattoos and stuff. And that was a bit of a because I did feel like I didn’t fit in, I think because I was young, like because I was I was quite organized as well.

    [03:29:39]

    So I was able to get what they wanted as well as because I was trying to support that. So I think they actually said and it’s quite interesting when you actually not part of that. No, but I didn’t try and conform. So I think when you have the benefit of youth, I think it’s a lot easier to do that. I think maybe if I was faced in that manner now that I’m forty four, even though I dated about forty four, forty four, it’s it’s a lot, it seems like a different world.

    [03:30:13]

    I’m sure I would say that’s probably fair, isn’t it? There’s not really there’s not really any reason why someone would give me more of a break if I was young than if I’m the same age, I’m the same boss and say this in my head, isn’t it? Let’s hope it was a dating app, they will see the real you there, just see a photograph of you. See, that’s the problem.

    [03:30:36]

    Well, Rob’s got this thing, but he suggested is this thing where you put your photographs on it, but photo something or forever. And that’s quite interesting because photos that you think of, I look quite good. So then you get like votes back. I think it’s quite it’s quite interesting, actually. Was women like Ann, which is women don’t like wearing body of of like norms and what people think, so they they just so they decide on you, whether you are intelligent, trustworthy, if you get like vote on three things.

    [03:31:17]

    It’s quite it’s quite it’s quite difficult things to sort of sign yourself up for as well, because you’re being judged solely on how you look. But it’s interesting to note how people perceive me when they look at me.

    [03:31:32]

    Where is that? That fight, I feel, yeah, I favor. Is that a series of photos and like in one posting or is it just an individual photo where you put you there always used to get swept? So I post photos to see what people thought so I could as funds for a dating profile. So basically, if you can either pay for it and then you could lose the photos and they could vote or else you can build up karma.

    [03:32:03]

    So you have to you have to basically vote on women secrets and lots of women’s rights to vote on them. And then you get karma and then people vote on your photographs, but you can only have one active at once. So interesting.

    [03:32:18]

    You’re a bit of a case of, like you say, post three different types of photos of you and they vote, which would be what impression they get of each photo.

    [03:32:27]

    Yeah, that would be better than that. You have to do it individually unless you pay like everything else on the Internet, you’ve got to pay for everything is never as good. We do that.

    [03:32:40]

    So I’m a widow’s grief and we we put up pictures up and get feedback from each other and stuff like that, which is interesting. It’s probably too nice, we’re probably too nice to each other like that, because normally if you don’t like friends and whatever, that’s mutual support, isn’t that? But obviously, if you’re just trying to bring myself into the lines that face to face, there is lines, mouth, it’s like someplace haven’t got a clue.

    [03:33:15]

    So it’s one of the guys today put on like eight pictures of just this bit of him. You just his face. It was like actually might be nice to know there’s more than just your face, but he didn’t realize that that was important to sort of. Maybe see a full body length picture, not everyone wants to show that again.

    [03:33:37]

    We were talking about this earlier because because I find women’s bodies quite bizarre as well, because you can obviously get some proper affluenza that and in skimpy clothes and stuff like that in front of me, it’s like there’s three photos of me and my bike, you know, Muslims. I have this lot riding a bike. But then you have other ones who clearly kind of have issues. And so you look a bit. So you see, look, if I see contrary to what I look like and it’s like when, you know, you’ve got a very nice lifestyle.

    [03:34:11]

    But can I say that I had a friend that dated a lady with her hair always here, and she had one eye. She only had one eye. It was really short because he just thought she was doing sexy photos. But no, she only had one eye, so she always had a hair over her face. Plus, I always wanted to ask, have you got your own eyes and teeth is a bit of something about that basic thing?

    [03:34:40]

    Have you got legs, too?

    [03:34:43]

    Oh, you know. It was I talking about, like the way you look and how people perceive you. I, I used to have long hair and basically I eventually decided I was going to call for charity something enough because this is what I was working for. I was what I basically and the place just used to read me all the songs. I had long hair and this was and it was still quite old school. So they were still going if you were civilian, they still really work.

    [03:35:16]

    They didn’t have a lot of respect for you. I used to get constantly red. So I thought, okay, I’m finally going to you know, I’ve had this for a long time. I’m going to have a change. And I was you know, I was getting fed up with that as well. I got it all shaved off. And I remember looking like where we was, which is like sort of Courtright station off after road had it cut off and I never seen on the same bus.

    [03:35:39]

    But people just getting out the way because it was it was a great new world. People were giving me, like, distance. And the only thing was that my. And it’s just funny what people perceive when they when they see certain things. Well, that means you’re not, you know, like a Nazi or whatever, or you don’t you don’t always know.

    [03:36:01]

    You don’t understand. You don’t always know what other people are thinking about your photos.

    [03:36:05]

    And I so unconsciously, you just tell them what you know, people are just picking up stuff.

    [03:36:14]

    And so when someone told me I was over, I did the great but changed course and lock them. And so I did the same with the Norfolk offshoot of the Facebook rape. And someone said, Oh, you’re brave, Yohanna, you’re brave. And I was like, that is not what I would call brave at all. I just thought, oh, funny, I didn’t say anything, but I just thought, brave.

    [03:36:40]

    Timmy’s dying for your country, you know, not the killer at all. It’s just like I would always cut off your hair. That’s that’s what she’s talking about. Yeah.

    [03:36:52]

    Yeah. She thought it was brave. I thought a little bit of her college degree that was like that’s that’s it was just weird. You say no for me. Yeah. I’ve been offered. Oh, Iraq.

    [03:37:04]

    I have some friends who live in Norfolk who tell me stories where people are about to lie about things, which is are they seem to be quiet that I’m sure you get that everywhere. But you have told me a few stories about like residents associations and I tend not to date in Norfolk.

    [03:37:27]

    And great. You’ve got a reputation for only being indoors and attempted to do it recently. And I just thought, why did I bother? That’s not good. Is it really bad?

    [03:37:44]

    It’s looking bleak. I feel like, oh, God, wait a minute. Am I going to see some people who were like, gracious?

    [03:37:56]

    Oh, yeah. Where are you, Kate?

    [03:38:01]

    I’m in London, actually. Are you still in London? Yeah, well, yeah. So it’s it’s a lockdown obviously. But on the move out of. Yeah. Because we get locked down. So I’m not really saying where I’m kind of, I’m kind of look but I thought well bloody hell, I don’t know what the hell I’m going to be so sorry for what I was because I was trying to move to court. So it’s try to look for girls in court.

    [03:38:26]

    But I think most of them are like you live in London, so what the hell? I because obviously no one wants Londoners anywhere else.

    [03:38:32]

    So I it’s interesting because one of the things that I thought when we did the first exercise, it was it four hours ago now was that I’m always impressed if someone will drive to Norfolk to visit me. You know, if you’re prepared to drive for hours to see me, that makes me interested. Some well, some people that live twenty minutes away say, oh, that’s a bit far hinter. It’s a bit far because they live in Norwich and I live out towards the coast.

    [03:39:01]

    Oh no, you’re too far. And it’s sometimes it’s easier for me to find interesting people that live a hundred and fifty miles away than it is twenty miles. I don’t know if anyone else has found that. Yeah. Here I am thinking 50 miles is far enough. I need to rethink my distance.

    [03:39:25]

    I just feel I feel I feel appreciated that someone would actually get in, get them, get themselves to where I am.

    [03:39:32]

    I think I think at the moment, because there are a lot of us who look down, I just think from it as well as you come in at the end of the day, you know, you’re probably not going to be able to do anything more than if you died. So, you know. You’re not being creative. There’s all sorts of stuff going on.

    [03:39:53]

    That’s so intriguing, the stories, because I had so many single people, I suppose that, you know, delivering bystanders to your you know, your your new potential partners doorstep and all sorts of stuff, kind of interesting cold roasted for then eating them together.

    [03:40:20]

    Like, how does that work?

    [03:40:23]

    So you’re looking for someone to take you to a restaurant in Norfolk that you go gets out.

    [03:40:35]

    What do you think of the idea of having to drop your standards if you want someone? Oh, that’s tough. I like people say, oh, the reason you can’t find someone is, well, you need to drop your standards then.

    [03:40:49]

    That’s a toughie.

    [03:40:51]

    But do they know what your standards are or they’re assuming that you have such high standards that nobody can meet them? Because I find that some people can be quite judgmental.

    [03:41:02]

    It feels judgmental, doesn’t it, to talk about these things, I. I it does feel judgmental, but do you think that’s realistic? Well, I think it depends.

    [03:41:16]

    You know, like I spoke earlier about women on average would pick the top 30 percent, top 10 percent of intelligence or 20 percent of intelligence, the high that a lot of that is ruling. Means that there’s a small section of men that most women are attracted to, and so you’ve got almost all women going for this. You know, the doctors that are six foot to, you know, have nice cars, really good looking, great social skills, they are then more in demand.

    [03:41:59]

    So there’s a lot of people fighting for small number of of men. So it depends on what are the standards that you have to drop. It depends whether it’s something sometimes your barriers are that your ruling people out that you could have good relationships with. And sometimes it’s just the fact of maybe not looking in the right places or not talking to enough people. But I suppose the standard that you would never want to compromise is your actual core values. Well, it depends.

    [03:42:40]

    And I’m not sure I think what you’re really looking for is really looking for integrity, you’re really looking for kindness, you’re really looking for someone who’s committed to work with you. So, you know, like Daniel says, when you marry someone, you marry have problems. So the issue is what is the problem you can live with?

    [03:42:59]

    So you might have different values about money, might have different values about children, but as long as you understand and respect each other, sometimes that can that can work. So I think you have to be in the relationship a little while and see. See if it’s if it’s the real problem that you can’t live with. Yeah, and I suppose also the other key thing is that you want the same things in life because quintessentially whatever you’re pursuing in life, if you’re not pursuing the same things, you’re not going in the same direction, are you?

    [03:43:34]

    Yeah, and sometimes it’s a matter of refinement of what you want. And most people don’t really know. And the same person, they were on the spectrum and the spectrum that they’re on depends on how you behave, not the spectrum. There are there on a spectrum of they’ll be like this with one person, they’ll be like this with someone else. And it depends on how the relationship on what you activate in the. And. I was thinking about it as being like, you know, like when you look for a flat or a house or something, you know, you obviously have this perfect idea of what your fly onstage, you know, and it’s very, quite rare that you can find something that has everything you want.

    [03:44:25]

    I suppose there are certain things that maybe wouldn’t compromise, the things you would compromise and other things you’d think. OK, I would say actually that’s what ABC ran in its last. Yeah, yeah, and also I again, look at the actual enchantment idea that if if you you know, sometimes you think you know what you want and you would want the best anoxia and really the iPhone delighted you, but you would never have asked for it because you didn’t know.

    [03:45:04]

    So sometimes you say so maybe if that’s been the barrier, maybe it’s worth just going on a few dates, seeing people, seeing how things go, and then deciding if having the same value, because it’s quite difficult when you chat to someone or on a first date and you’re asking them, you know, and I can try out. But yeah, on this value, this value, because you’re seeing the snapshot and you have no real idea of the story behind that person and what led them to that and what they haven’t experienced.

    [03:45:45]

    And so meeting you is going to change them because you’ve brought a whole different range of experiences and you meet them and understanding what makes them them is going to also change you. So I’d say if if you feel that you’re not getting anywhere, then maybe just try seeing what it’s like with other people, not with less expectation, just just looking at who they are and. Without putting them in boxes with names like labels or or saying they have different values to me.

    [03:46:29]

    All of these things, there’s lots of subtleties to them. Well, I think so, I agree. I think we’ve we’ve run we’ve run late tonight, and now I’ve got work for early in the morning. Thank you all for being here and contributing and. Sharing your views and experiences. And I’ll see you next week. Can I I know, I know very much, Rob. It’s every week.

    [03:47:07]

    Yes, every Monday, same time I normally finish runs on time since I’ve been timing anyway.

    [03:47:19]

    Yeah, this is a very good time in the schedule somewhere that we all ignore.

    [03:47:25]

    Well, it is set for seven to nine. We’ve never finished. No, I don’t think most times we finished the 10th and the recording is for whose purpose was to see the recording.

    [03:47:37]

    We the video recording doesn’t go out anywhere. The audio recording goes on to a podcast where anyone can listen to it. Right. But we only use first names and we don’t use video. Right. OK. I just wanted. OK, I’ll see you next week. Have a good weekend. Bye bye. Thanks. Bye. Bye bye.