What are the most common relationship challenges and problems women face in their relationships?
In this episode we talked to women about their experiences and men about their perceptions. Here’s what they said…
Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the past, helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. Last week, we did the male journey, this week we're doing the female journey, last week we broke out the first breakout into male female groups. I know a lot of people don't like there in that. What what are your thoughts? You have a quick poll up for separating by gender and hands up for mixed groups.
That looks about tide.
I think it just makes sense. But, you know, females might be more comfortable to talk with females just on this particular one today. Yeah, OK.
All right. So what we do split by gender. OK, so we're going to breakout rooms. And the question is, if you're if you're female, what is the biggest problems you face in relationships if you're a male? What is your perception of the biggest problems? In relationships, can I check the mail? The question is, would the sexually that with the women? Yeah.
So we were engendered breakout rooms for what are the challenges and challenges, experiences and frustrations that women face in relationships. So now I'm going to do I'm going to post a link. In the chat and there is a whiteboard that we can all share ideas on. Now, I've pre populated it with some of my perceptions and some of the emailed. Some people were kind enough to email some of the challenges that they were facing in relationships. So let me see if I can share screen.
What I've got is I've seen this three basic causes so of by society. So we've got pressure of body image and needing to be body perfect. I think that's a big one of double standards. So this is in terms of sexuality, of where men seem to be double standards between men and women in their careers and also domestically in terms of both parties, both partners work full time. But yet still the childcare and domestic chores tend to be more taken care of by the woman and a pressure to be like superwoman, to do it all, to have the family, to have a career.
And all of these things caused by women like a bitchiness or rivalry or like that mean girls type of thing. And caused by men. So one is the wrong kind of men attention from unsuitable men, men who are too young men, too old men who you don't find attractive. And how do you put them off? Nicely, then we've got them. We've got controlling behavior in relationships, men who get angry, who are too moody, jealous.
There's a line moving north, leaving communication, being a big image for men who don't take care of themselves and men. So where women feel like the pressure and the need to look their best men who can't be bothered dealing with the fragile male ego of not being able to have conversations honestly because it will offend the man or it will cause arousal needing to pick them up so that they feel respected and boring men in terms of dating and being boring and men who have a lack of conversation, many who have interests who are fixated on gaming or football or rugby, all kinds of pop and don't have a variety of interests.
So on this, you can add if you go over here and you click this one, if you click there, you can add sticky, sticky notes. And if you just double click, it will just. Come up. If we sat for five minutes to add to that now, in the meantime, anyone who's got anything to say that had anything interesting in their rooms or any thing, I particularly like to. Talk about can jump in and see what the difference was between the two.
I can see what that's caused by where we caused by bed the difference and see what what the yellow or the green was.
OK, so we've got Saab's looking at would it be helpful to look at where the causes were? So this is caused by women in this society. So just like double standards really comes from society as body pressure from the media comes from society and the blue ones are really direct interactions with men. I was also going to use the green on we've caught myself, but then what lot of that is comes from society.
And so I left that to give you some suggestions. Now, when you're looking to buy two. Great. So is there anything cupboard's in your group that wasn't that is on that already. Things I can't see the name, but someone's talking about these meetings.
I would still say the majority are still the majority of women still have the even if it's not 50 50. The bulk of custody of children. So by bad, it's not caused by women.
And I don't think it's cause that would be society, because this is an unfairness in society.
It might be what the world once again, this might be what the man doesn't want.
The more productive for today we're looking from like last week was Will. So we need to separate select from the female experience from us men.
It's perception because we can't we can have a perception, but we can't have an experience that. Yeah, but we can also be told so we can have experience through what we're told through relationships. One thing I think that you might have missed perhaps is biological pressure. So we talked last week about hormones, male hormones being testosterone, and women also have hormones which drive them perhaps not always to want children and once they have children to be emotionally attached to children.
So their their hormones after birth, that cause the woman to be very attached to the baby, which men don't get. So I've I've heard of that from people. So the guy saying, well, you know, she's super attached to the little one and maybe I'm not quite so much. So that's something perhaps which is not not always understood or maybe not covered by your listing. Yeah, that's a good one.
I wish that I knew there was something about the self, but. Yeah. So that's that's that's a good one. And I think that that given that I mean, we talked about the financial pressures of the roles and role expectations. So parents want grandchildren and they expect their their daughters to be in and that kind of situation where they might give them grandchildren. So I've seen that from grandparents, if you like, where they really want grandchildren, especially mothers, grandmothers.
And that's that's again, one that's not easy to want to. To interpret the signs among those responses saying we've got sort of dreams and kind of roll expectations, so roll. So like we said, women are expected to do everything. And something else I think is perhaps more modern and I think maybe younger women are experimenting with with gay relationships, if that's that's not the long term or non heterosexual. And then switching back to, you know, to get married and have children.
And I wonder if that's something which is an issue I think is quite a modern thing. I think there's actually expression for it by common law. That is where, you know, they have a they have a gay relationship while they're at college. And then they they switch back when they when they want to have a family, which must be. I think it's that experience. I think it's more like the women are less. Less against the the gays gay relationship than the probably more fluid than the yes.
Explanation for that. But if it's not an experience, it is more natural for women than men, I think. That's my opinion about it. I just have a personal opinion that sometimes people have role confusion and as you say, they're fluid, they get into something and then they then it must be confusing if you find out that it's not really you so that there must be error. That would be confusing. Makes sense. It is a confusing two.
Sorry. So if if a man or woman got into a gay relationship and then realized that they weren't actually gay in a younger life, but that could be confusing. Why would it necessarily be confusing, I think, to a man that is perhaps a bigger issue because this this whole kind of stereotype where for a man to be gay is an insult, whereas I don't think that has that connotation. So much for women and scientifically, they are more gender fluid.
Take a second. What Rob A.S.A. that said, it's about fluidity and that love is just love. And so it it's not so black or white or anything like that. It's just it's a different form of love and that makes sense. But yeah, my perception is he's probably not a problem for women. I think it's. I don't know if you've got different point, like. I'm wondering who is the where does it bring up an issue? Who is it for parents?
I agree with you. I'm just saying that I find it a little bit silly to feel. I'm completely straight. And I remember I used to be on the telephone helpline for years and years because sometimes someone would threaten to masturbate on the last minute of my day. And I took what I would call it, said I'm not stupid, but it's definitely not to me. It might be a little bit more common just from my experience where I'm at school, if I think the girls at school and the boys at school seem to equate to number of girls and that was related to the men.
But I think it's just because I didn't mind. But definitely not exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I do. When I say to me, you can see more of it. So I don't mean that we would necessarily feel an insult, but I think there is a macho, which I don't think he's I think he's changing and I think younger generations isn't. But when I was definitely when I was young, that guy was an insult, meant that you weren't a real man.
It meant that all of these kind of things that this and this, this macho and I think like I went to an all boys school and I'm not in contact with a lot of people. I have a few people on Facebook from school. I don't know. And I definitely didn't know at school of one single gay boy in my school. And now when you take you there like five, six hundred boys in the school, clearly they were, but it wasn't safe.
It's like they you still haven't had a Premiership league footballer who's come out as gay. And just by numbers, they must be. And I think also the gender fluidity thing is maybe I mean, there are some scientific studies, but maybe it's just it's more acceptable and more culturally.
I think there's less cultural stigma for women. I don't I don't think there's necessarily an insult, but I think of stigma because every man is dreaming about being with the lesbian couple, of course, is the stigma. Come on.
It does come down to porn. Really? Does it make sense? Yes, it is. But but it doesn't. It doesn't. The porn reflects society because what's most popular, porn and porn is made or traditionally porn has been made to cater to male. What's what's going to sell to men. But just just to accentuate that point, there actually was one chap just in fashion and he was found hung, I think, in a garage or shed.
So that shows that even though he did kind of come out or he was known to be a homosexual, he was killed. They said that that was yeah, that was later. That was he didn't come out while he was a footballer. And I think his brother disowned him. I said, John Farchione. Yeah. And yeah. And he was very troubled. And I think there's someone else came out recently, but I don't think he's a current police.
And you can understand why when you look at the terrace, which is very much a very male, very old fashioned, very misogynist, to have one hundred thousand or twenty thousand five hundred thousand shout and and also like sponsorship deals, are you imagine, like Renaldo, how much money he makes. Would that would that be affected by England right now with all this crying, the heat, the Bible or something like that? Yeah, that's a nice little matter.
Yeah, it's really a real mess.
But I don't know. I mean, maybe if it was the first one in my life, he might suddenly boost his brand. But, yeah, for a lot for a lot of men. I was trying to think of a real really like someone who's a whose brand is new. I know you have a rugby player who came over. Come on, he's a what's his name?
US from from the front. Well, I don't know what is his name, but he's really hot. I don't get upset like him.
But I think the thing in Rumpy is the number one rugby is not doesn't have quite the mass appeal of football and it doesn't. And it's more modern. I think it's more educated. It's not like the terrorist chants. Something is perhaps a little bit more accepted, but you have an image of these rugged, muscular, brutish looking men who are coming out and saying that they're gay. And I think in many people's eyes, the two the two don't work.
They don't go together because you think that a gay man is has more visible female traits. And I think people like what's his first name, Thomas help to debunk that that notion that being gay means that your. Your kind of female playing the gender roles within your relationship?
Yeah, I think so. And I think I don't know that it's necessarily for kids in school today. I don't know that it's necessarily an insult where it would have been like 30 years ago. But anyway, to get back to the main topic so everyone has access to the whiteboard and can see it. So what we need to do is like. So everyone's had a chance to say anything, is there anything anyone who hasn't been able to put anything on the board wants to include it, OK?
Right. So what we'll do now is if we go back into breakout rooms, so you should still have access to the whiteboard. And what I'd like you to do is talk through what you see are the three biggest challenges, because in our time here tonight, we're not going to have time to cover all of them. So we'll pick free to try and get free. OK, so we're looking at those challenges. What do you see? As the three biggest.
Challenges and we'll talk about lies in the coverage. OK, so if we get to the whiteboard, we ask for a quick recap from each group. But in the meantime, if you get to the whiteboard, I'm going to open up voting and so everyone can now vote by clicking. If you click a card, you can click free cards and vote like that. OK, so there's one group that wasn't able to to add anything, does anyone want to speak out?
You mean sort of go through a list of things that we got our top three? Yeah, well, top three or anything that was on the. Well, when we just left off, we're talking about communication and problem solving and conflict resolving, and we find that difficult with other guys and intubating just guys, but they tend to sort of close off, stonewalled, and they find it difficult to be vulnerable, to open up, to face that fear of doing so.
Yeah, and I will one thing that we found, I know it's supposed to be a top three, but the thing we were most concerned with was that, you know, the playing field. So, you know, in a up, the finances are lean towards women as a custody of children and all of these things. So in a sense, there's much more. But in a nutshell, the female is pedlars personalized, which that position must be difficult for, for women to to live up to or to have responsibility towards.
OK, so as in unrealistic expectations for men from society, less, less necessarily so for men, but for societal standards. OK, so you say pressure as in not needing to be superwoman and all of those kind of things. Yeah, but it's that. So would that be that that sounds a bit like yours from the male experience, because this is the problem that men have based on women's. On the way, to be directly honest for you, did start, is that absolutely.
But then we also saw that as much as they were up there and weighed down, that societally in terms of standards, that it must be difficult to be up there. So, yeah, we kind of flipped it around and. OK, there is a kind of thing that comes up on the phone that recently we talked to I think we talked about 50 percent goes right back to that. In America, it's down to 30 percent. And the reason being is that couples aren't committing to a relationship until later in life.
And that then creates the pressure time so that people aren't getting together until they're 30. Then it's 10 years before the opportunity to have a family. And this is not something on. So as in the biological clock? Yeah, and and also the societal pressure to be in a committed relationship early in life when it's going to be at that time as well as many times what one? OK. Anything else from any of the other groups of any other just jumping in, can you hear me OK?
Yes, yeah. So in our group, I think someone did type up, but we talked about communication, expectation. And the last one we haven't talked about is shared values and your own values. And sometimes if you have very different values system without realizing it to start with, eventually that kind of can show itself and can and can cause problems, too. So, for example, if you had to if a value was your freedom and exploration or that kind of thing, and on the other side, you had a value of wanting to be grounded and just sort of, you know, say those two values come together, could cause conflict possibly.
But it's how you might do much. You can't change your values to fit in your values or your values.
OK, so would that be more the general relationship rather than like a general? I suppose it would be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, General. But then you can. Yeah. Just about one of our three. Yeah. Yeah I think that's. Yeah I think yeah. I think it all plays in this like there is this difference between genders and then this difference then creates constant conflict in many different ways. Like how would you say that.
You can be clear what somebody's values are. By what they do, really, really. What does someone do?
That's the clearest sign of all behavior police find in court and what they're doing, what they find important and where they spend money. That's a good one. I actually I, I think next week I don't think there's anything posted for next week. And one that I really want to get into is currencies. Love, time, attention and. Yes. So when someone spends their time where someone spends their money, we'll show you what they really value as long as it's not a facade for something and they're being honest, if it's their real behavior, genuine behavior, then saying, yes, you will see who they are.
But if it's a con and for want of a better word, you are no closer to the real person than. Yeah. And I think that that goes back to a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about like, why is the flowers for the marriage less valuable? And I think that's what it is, because there isn't an investment of money. There is an investment of time. And so it's seen as less valuable because it's easy to do something so easy to do is is easy to put on the facade rather than whereas romance is really about being romantic is about time and attention and effort.
I call it being part of the offer, which I to tell you more about that. Well, when people put on a facade of things and promiscuity or this, that or the other, and you don't necessarily need it. Well, you know, they promised this. They promised that. And then after the three month honeymoon period, realized that, yeah, it's not really coming to fruition for the kind of thing. And and it's not. And it's been really difficult, you know, other stuff that's not the case.
But, yes, I think that is so that's talked about women being on a pedestal in society wise. And I think maybe in the beginning of a relationship, there is a competition to be on the pedestal. And that kind of behavior is to be I want to be seen like a man I think wants to be seen and respected and looked up to. So anyway, everyone should have had a chance to to vote by now. So I'm going to close it.
Is anyone who's having trouble can't vote but would like to vote for something.
What are you voting for. For the top three. Aha. So you can click one to three of the top three. And they are where we're at, I've lost you now. OK, let me close up the voting. How do I do that here?
Against. So what's come out as we've got to in clear, which is double standards, so sexually in terms of career and domestically men's behavior from men as Endang moodiness and jealousy dealing with that. OK, so shall we take this to. If we have time, we'll get into communication, conflict, we come. I vote for communication. I had my vote to communication. OK, so that's the phrase. We did talk quite a bit about communication last.
Last week, which is really the key between between men and women and we all just to be inclusive, we all these days to sort of whiteboards, well, they do way towards traditional heterosexual relationships and. I don't know that if there was enough interest and we would do this for same sex relationships, but I'm not sure that there's enough. So. OK, so double standards. OK, so. We're going to break out those people, go into the breakout rooms, so, OK, let's let's just frame what are talking about in terms of double standards.
So what I'm thinking about double standards. I'm thinking about in terms of sexuality, in terms of traditionally it's been if a man sleeps with lots and lots of women, he's a stud. If a woman does Jesus. So there is this we've talked about a patriarchal idea of of relationships and women and all that kind of stuff. So in terms of career, we've definitely in my lifetime, we've moved towards more equality. I don't know if women feel that there is equality.
I don't think. Well, as a woman, quick show of hands do feel there is equality societally in Korea in terms of career, in terms of opportunities, in terms of being taken seriously. Do you feel that we've reached equality if you hand up if you think we have. OK, and if you don't hand up. OK. All right. I'm sort of in the middle, Rob, I mean, I think we've come a long way, definitely a long way, but there's still much to be to be done.
So it's not complete equality, but it's not that either. I think we're somewhere in between, but we still have quite a lot of work to do to try to take things like that. Still work today, but I acknowledge we've come a long way. Absolutely. That's the question for another night, but would we ever get a quality for you if men and women have different differences, will we reached that stage? Is it societal or is it there?
Is that whole biological thing and said. Yeah, yeah. But that's another discussion. OK, so sexually career and domestically in your relationships, you as a woman feels that you have an unfair balance of chores, responsibilities, childcare, all those kinds of things. So if you feel it's unfair, if you raise your hand, if you feel that there's a fair, equal sharing of chores and things in relationships, then if you raise your hand. So if you feel there is equality in terms of chores domestically.
So if you can raise your hand now. If you don't feel that there's a fair, fair distribution, you don't feel there's equality if you raise your hand now.
OK, yeah, so definitely a feeling, the obsession, it's unfair. Okay, so is everyone clear what we're talking about in terms of double standards? OK, do you want to go back to mixed with this is this is the meetup of polls, right? Do we want to go to mixed groups or agenda gender specific? If you want to go the next, I think we can fix it now. OK, so we're going to recreate the rooms, so.
Well, OK, so you should get a link where we got ten minutes to talk about double standards and there there's some interesting conversations going on. He wants to share insights on what? Came to mind all their experiences or stories. I don't know whether everybody's covid it. What may be a bit of double standard, what people expect also backed by experts. Might work both ways. Would be bothered, but also traditional, so wanted to work, but also wanted to be more as a mother or a house woman.
So that's double standards are got. You have to want them to be both, whether that is double standards or. They want both pieces of the pie. You want one or the other that you can't have both. Unless you share it, you know, I want you to be domestic and a good mother, but I also want to work as well. My God. Well, if you want all of that, you're going to have to chip in all the revenues as well.
Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely, I think that is what I want you to work also and what you want to the work look after the hours and also used to do the cooking, whether it's men expect too much in that sense. I think what I have heard is a lot of relationships have had to be redefined, especially during the lockdown, has so many people like everybody working from home. But yet the woman I've heard a lot still has to sort out the home schooling.
So you've got two people working from home, but the woman still has to do home school and she still has to break in the middle and sort out lunch for everybody. And and I know some I know a few of my friends have had to have a talk about that and change things because it was there was a pattern forming. And, you know, it's kind of like, hold on a minute, OK? We're we're all working from home now.
So we've all got to sort of, you know, chip in. And I think that was quite difficult to begin with. A lot of women on stress leave at work at the moment because they're just not able to to juggle everything. And this is to people at home. I think the inequality domestically then affects the career equality, because when there is that feeling and it's like if if we take on a society generally the way of when a sick child, when there's home schooling, does tend to fall more to women, if we look at it statistically, which means that then when you when you look at people can feel like an employer can to hire someone, do they hire the man that they know that they have full attention or the woman that there is like societally going to take on more responsibility?
So be interested to hear from some more women's perception of. Is there an element so one of the things I've heard is that men just can't do it, or as in their and so ultimately where men can sort of back, how a woman doesn't feel that she can. Or it's a bit like that thing where they watch the polls and they do such a crap job, you want them to do it again? Maybe. Or you get that I bring home the bacon, therefore that's my contribution.
And I've heard that even from well, not not so much, but I've heard women earning more than the man, but yet still having to do the mastic. Yeah. What do you mean by having to make it sound like an obligation? So there's an agreement on negotiation between the two is that's what that's why my question is that someone will feel because I've asked them, I feel what he won't do it or societally there is.
A perception that women are more caring and more caring is it's it's been our genes because we get the channel, we can have children. So if we are carrying them, so, of course, we have more care because it is is in our DNA, but actually. Is a simple domestic thing, like find the fixing with your socks, find the laundry and put in the laundry basket. It's not really difficult. So I think because most of the mother is a little bit kinder or more likely than before they sign.
And what if you go into the girl's room most of the time? My God, she's horrible. But but if you go to the girl's room is more organized and if you go to the. Voice room is like a bomb just exploded somewhere, and it's sometimes the londres moving because underneath maybe there is a sandwich from the last decade or something. So I so I think the the mothers, sometimes they are not that nice, but strict with the with the boys than the girls.
Well that's quite interesting that you say that, because when my ex-wife and I spent I was a single dad so I had two girls in the week and so they were about nine, nine, nine and 11. But I didn't do it. When they went to their moms, they packed the bag. I didn't just like this guy is a pack stuff, whereas maybe a mom would have been more. Yeah, would have maybe done more, whereas I was like this, you you can sort out and they sort of.
They so they did more. I think maybe where some. I don't know whether it's just the less nurturing parent or whether it is were general women more, because I've had like I've read that the role of the man is more to help children as they get older, to be more independent, to make their way in the world where the moms traditionally has been to nurture them, make them feel safe in home. And then it's kind of like that that becomes more important.
Denef, that's Hasni. Is that because of that had to raise boys, isn't it? That's that guy's name now, but that's that because that's what it says, that the US boys get older. They need more of a mentor, and that's one of my skills as well, so similar and I think I'm just at my two children, I could walk into my daughter's room and I can't see the floor. She's 12, my son. Everything's put.
Everything's tongue tied things. So there is that you are who you are kind of have to raise money differently that both of them. But they they are it's not it's not a gender thing, I think from that, because they are so different. She's an absolute mess and he's just so organized. But there is something as well as the men that that mind of hunter gatherers evolution to women, Nestor's. So it's in us as well to be that way.
So then we as a society changes. We have to maybe look at how we work differently together. I think in our group, Stephen touched upon it, and I think both like this and Nicole, Nicole forget is maybe love. I think sometimes it's level of maybe generally bad as House proud, so it's like we're happy with a certain level of how to do the parts, how to do that and all that will do. It's only got to creases in it.
I don't throw it on. But then so the point if you was in a relationship, you might get told you're not going out like that. You know, I expect an even better level of the parts that's not played that was not warm off. You know, it's like we say seven out of ten is good enough. And it said you told, no, we need eight or nine. It's like the men behaving badly. I used to love that.
So I think yeah, I think Stephen's, which we say of that close, has been there for four days. But the plane and if you had a woman around the house, you might either make the effort yourself. If you had a woman around the house, all about a relationship that didn't live with you might make a bit more effort. But because you don't. You might just say, oh, it's acceptable, so our acceptable is different women's access, but not everybody, but no more than 50 percent anyway.
So I would. Or it could be seen that you deliberately did not do as good a job, so you will get asked again. Yeah, well, that's what my grandmother said to me that very early on, that she my granddaughter was on. And then she asked my grandma. He asked my grandma to iron his seat for him for the Navy, and did such a terrible job being asked again and again. So same thing that this is an issue of roles.
And the press needs to be an understanding that people sometimes enjoy the roles and the like being in charge, and they like having that control. So I would say that my mother wouldn't let us do anything she wouldn't last was the word so. He he taught us how to do some plumbing because it's like how much we do this, you've got to do some decorating, you can do the prep work because it's your room. So now I know how to do those roles.
What is your mother still going to do? Everything. So there was no way she was going to mess in the kitchen and teaches actually cooking like that. So not just me, but also my sisters. And as you said about everything to be picked up, that was something that she saw her role. So she she wanted to do as children, perhaps would be quite happy to show that, whereas my father would have wanted us to have family, mother didn't.
So I think that's something to be said. The role has some association of pressure and control doing that job.
It's job satisfaction that brings to mind something else in. Well, because we've become more there's been more equality, but sometimes that means that there's a pressure on women, that they now have to be career women where they might have like, you know, like you talked about your mom enjoying that role where some women who were in that role, who would love the traditional role, feel that they that they can't do that anymore, feel that they need to be the career woman.
Does anyone feel that or know someone or has seen that?
We're lacking the drive for equality, then comes the pressure that you have to become a career person rather than just be happy being a stay at home mom. You mean that is a choice of either or. No, I mean. So there's a problem that we didn't have a quality and still by talking about we don't have equality now. So that's a problem because there are lots of women that are reaching the potential that they'd like to have in their careers because of barriers, because of their gender.
But equally, there are women who would like a more traditional role. But because of this general shift, they aren't allowed or I'll feel a pressure that they have to be a person, whereas they might like to be a stay at home mom or they might like to be, you know, the traditional housewife. I think that has to do with the. Value with value in housework or being the homemaker, and if it had a similar value or some esteem attached to it, that's equivalent to being in an office somewhere, then that notion that all but you don't do anything, what do you do?
You are you only stay at home. How do you what do you do each day? Not realizing that that person probably keeps the family working and keeps that family going in many respects because they are in charge of most of the things that individually and collectively as a family that the the the supervisor oversee. And until I think we have respect for that role, then there would be that conflict because it's not seen to be equivalent. And yet still, as a as a mother, she's handling finances, she's handling entertainment, she's handling health issues.
She's she's everything. She's doing everything.
I think that point line in the wrong direction is that. The communism was about equal opportunities within. But the reality is, is that employers will pay people the least amount of money they can possibly get away with. And I would expect people to work until they drop and work all the hours under the sun if they can get away with it. And the fact that the women have come into a stronger role in the lot in the workplace enables employers to reduce wages growth and drive up the balance of work.
And that's that's the issue that is really being addressed. So what we see is a gender issue and really it's a it's an employer employee issue. So the same thing applies when the pension to employees can work and women were able to retire at sixty, sixty five and they didn't normalise it in middle name, just made women 65 percent men. And that's got government taking away. The benefits to the population who, like most employers, will prevent people from having to work life balance if they're allowed to get away with it and the least they can say.
Whereas in the past, we had men working in families didn't have that choice to have to pay a living wage because otherwise the families weren't able to work because they would support those denials of folks working, half expect, which is to complete a single sentence because they get and everyone loses. So I think you point fingers agenda, gender, employment and salary distribution and wealth distribution. So certain people in society are making huge amounts of money then the loss of everyone else.
That's generally that's that's about what we value. We value Cristiano Ronaldo a million times over the cleaner. The cleaner is the one that keeps things going. But this is like the Kardashians right now. And people like that are what people value. And so it's really a wider society issue of what we value. Do you think we are buying this? Yes. Or allow violence or this kind of stuff or just devaluing because that is what we get. Yes, it's of course, you see, you can choose if you you want to watch the university challenge or you want to watch the love islands, but come on, the violence is more OK.
Not for me, because it's horrible, but it's it's the it's it's more digestif. How can I say. Yeah, it's more easy to digest than a university challenge when I'm sitting there. What was the question? I do not understand the question that knowing that is like this is the reason why people like that. Yes. I don't know.
Yeah. Because it's digestible. It's like the food industry. We value chocolate over broccoli because the food industry takes like our taste buds. And it's same as social media and the media they like films are carefully. They have to have so much change, so much emotional variance to keep our attention. So so what they're really doing is. Taking like, ah, tastebuds, our attention, our attention capacity and just stimulated us, which is like you say, the easiest the easiest thing to watch.
That's why we're watching that. I mean, we're not watching the or something for something more meaningful because it's easy to watch. So. It. The economy really comes down to the economy, it's driven by. Most base instincts. And because of that. That's what we respond to, unless we override that. And so does we know we are going out buying. I but like Mother Teresa or someone equivalents t shirts, that means people are buying nowadays t shirts.
It's it's not societal, it's to do with taxes. So if you if you look at societal values, society values, the NHS society in this country values the nurses and the government who should be representing society has chosen to give them full rights because of the financial because they're basically in the same way as is without that reason, paid by society, by the by the funds directly over the funds could choose not to pay fees paid because these payments are paid, because if he to go to another club, we would pay him more.
So it's to do with. The sexual to do with the economic scenario more so than societal, it. It's, you know, people don't get paid what you can get away with supply and demand isn't there.
I think the fundamental issue, though, is that we are sold on blammo. That's the desirability of being seen with Renauld or being a Kardashian and having all the fancy clothes. That's what we are sold. It's a desire. It features as, as Rob says, our taste buds. It gives us a sense of euphoria and things that we are striving for, the Ferrari, the Lamborghini, the fellow who whatever the Jets and what have you. So we strive for that.
Whereas as you see the cleaner, there's nothing sexy or glamorous about him. So he or her, you know, so you don't desire to be them. And it's marketing. It's yeah, it's back to economics in a sense, but it drives it. But at the same time, it is it is appealing to our base of basic instincts. You to be, to be, to be desired, to be desirable, to be, you know, in the latest fashion, whatever it is, and that's what we we we seek.
And whatever the whatever the cost is, we try to get it. Whereas the the nurses and the teachers, they are not glamorous. They don't provide us with glamour.
If Sandra, I can't imagine you are just being really well dressed just because this is what but is the trend at the moment.
You know, this kind of stuff when you're just covering a NIPOST and the other person, that that is the best I to go, because that is the that the market, though, it drives the market and so that you get people who can come up with those brands and get those brands sold and make money for the investors who invest in those. That's where the attention goes. And people want to be a part of that because it's all hype and glamour and money flowing.
And you get to meet interest, so-called interest in people of glamorous people, whereas the people who do the work and really deserve to be paid properly are left behind because they become faceless. They are part of the system. And I think that's where Homemaker's fall into that category. They are there, they're stable, they they don't create waves. They they are the glue that keeps the whole together and. That's it, because it's convenient, because it's convenient.
I mean, when they when you break the families, the density of people is easier to control them and to manipulate them.
So, OK, so, I mean and I wonder, obviously, I'm not that woman, so I don't know if I have some kind of right to say this, but I wonder if the feminism has done a proper job, because a few days ago I was talking with a friend and he told me something I think is very interesting to say. I look at women and I don't I, I don't feel they are feminine anymore, you know what I mean?
So I don't see the man that a man wants to say no, no is the same true or not.
And that's true. But that's for another probably the another event we were talking about. The other women know that. No, no, it's true. I agree with you. So. Yeah, so yeah, I think that is. But improvements in both men and women nowadays and this study, the how not the world, the reality, how we see the reality, you know what I mean.
But please, did he define what what is it to be? What does it mean to be feminine, what are considered feminine. He said present example who say women drunk as much as men. They whereas men, they get drunk, they get them, they smoke like men. I mean, this is a sort of double standard, I think women. And what do you mean?
I mean, I don't like people who get drugs or drink too much. I'm going to smoke, you know. I mean, each person can do whatever they want. But I wonder somebody say because if a woman is or is what they understood, if a woman wants to stay at home doing to work at home, why? So we just by the way, because he doesn't want to pursue professional career, you know what I mean?
So I think this is probably the problem or I think the problem is that maybe it's not like we try to become expect to be able to keep women and their rights as a witness for women within. They're trying to become just try to assert themselves in the way that they feel, what they want to be. I feel that society is generally allowed. All right. I got some tips. I don't know what you said.
I'm sorry. I think society has set certain standards. How women can be so women aren't trying to be men, we're not and I'm not want to take on masculine traits necessarily. We're just being as it is. And I think it's just people don't necessarily know how to take that money.
I think I think that's a good point. I think. We've had this patriarchal thing, and to have power, you had to be a man, and so what's what then happens is women have had very few role models of women who were able to be feminine and operate on an equal playing field. So if you look at here, we had Margaret Thatcher is the first female prime minister and she was really a woman who had a lot of masculine energy or a lot of masculine behaviors.
And she had to kind of outman men, outmanned men. And so in a lot of the push for equality, a lot of women have seen that became, I think in the 80s, it started with women feeling that they had to wear business suits and power suits. And because the way that you got power and the way that men respected you was seeing you as a man. And so I think I think when we're talking about society, I think societally we have to be honest about what we really value, because politically we all say that we want the NHS or whatever.
But with our votes, we vote for who's going to who's going to. When someone is going to add more money to give more money to nurses, they're going to put more money into schools. But they're also going to take a look at our taxes. And suddenly we're unable to we vote for the person. That's why we vote for the person that's going to give us more money. And so, honestly, we don't we don't value we don't value the home.
We don't value we value money over what we say we value often. And so we have to look at. Really, we talked about last week the age of confusion, I think men are confused and they don't know what to do. But also women, there's a confusion, a lot of women. I feel that they have to push too far to the other side, and so it's not necessarily natural behavior from them, but it's what they feel they have to do within the system.
To have power and so I think what do you mean, sorry? Will you give an example? Well, OK, so if we look at Celestis, Margaret Thatcher is an example. She was the first female prime minister. She got power by being stronger. More domineering than college, like peers and. So she her behavior was probably was much more masculine. Then Feminin. She lost, like, the nurturing part, she lost all of those things and she never naturally or because that's what she felt she needed to do to have power.
She became more masculine and feminine. It didn't make sense to lower her voice, you know, just so she could sound not as shrill, not like a shrill girl, so she she could come on our men and get like three x late. So it's not like we work in a law firm, city law firm and the female partners, a lot of them have had to have a few conversations like, you know, mediating with the support team because of the complaints about how they talk to people.
Very aggressive. And a lot of the time we're wondering why why do they have to behave this way? And some of the men, the male partners don't. Very approachable. Good to talk to. Easy to talk to. For some reason. I don't know if it's is it competition? Is it they're having to assert themselves in a certain way to so they don't get pushed around, whatever. But, you know, some of them, I have to say, quite obnoxious in the workplace.
And yeah, that's probably similar. A similar situation, I guess. I think there is. There is probably. A perception I don't know in tell me if this is true, that maybe there's a perception from women that. They're going to be they have to do like I've had women say they have to be better than a man to be treated the same as a man. And so we're talking about values like the corporate culture often value money over people getting things done.
And so there's probably an insecurity like for that kind of behavior. There's an insecurity, whereas a man feels like I'm a man like other men and feels less less of that. Like Richard Ruel talks about men having too much confidence, like I'm great. I mean, just proving myself I'm great and women not having enough. And so what I'm thinking is that compensation. Yeah, aggression to feel to feel that. And I think I think if we run on the defaults, then we are going to value the Kardashians over everyone else and we are going to value the glamorous jobs and the jobs that have status.
Or the jobs that have status are going to have status because we value something outside the home rather than being a stay at home parent. So I think it is really about honesty of what we really value and then not not feeling that you have to conform to social social pressures.
I can know, for example, I was just going to say, let you finish, but we need to then move on because we I think what might be really interesting for people to discuss is controlling behavior or so we'll get into that. But but if you just wrap up if it's a good thing, you said that because I was just going to relate some experiences that I've had dealing with men at that level where in what they do is I have found in my situation, I don't have to work harder than the man to prove that I know what I know and that I'm doing my job.
But what they do is there are some subtle things that they do to undermine you, which others may not see. I have been told I remember I had a function, some minister of agriculture and whatever come in and USAID and all of those diplomats and stuff. And we had this function and we did it and it worked. And the representative from one of the agencies came up to me. This had to do with my life. And he said to me, boy, you are looking so good, just like a fish.
I could eat you. I mean, I was.
That. OK, because for all of what I had done for the day to put on this function and it went well to be told by this man that all he saw was that I was delectable and not not to not to tell me that I did a good job and that the function went well and that the minister was pleased or whatever.
No. OK, excuse me, lady called you a boy, that's terrible. No fish. Yeah, so sorry. Will you tell us what is the age of the man when this happened to you?
Oh, he wasn't much older than I was. I think he was at the time. He was probably in his. Early forties, thirties. Many years ago, for years and years, years ago, years ago, we are talking about a different generation. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. What I'm talking about, it still continues. And when I say years ago, I mean, I'm here 20 odd years, I'm talking twenty maybe maybe around 30 years.
But I think in 20 years time, the society has changed dramatically.
Can I just ask you for a second? Do you really, truly believe it was based on your gender or the actual structures of hierarchy and necking, as it's called, exists between men and men and women and women? No, no, no. OK. There's also a cultural thing, too. OK, but it was meant as a way of of just bringing you down slightly. They would not he would not have said that to another man. If a man had done the job that I was doing, he would not have belittled.
OK, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Don't be wrong. Men do that to men, but in a different way now.
But, you know. OK, fine. Yeah, but I just don't think that we respect each other. When when when an old when I'm old manager feels threatened by younger men and younger men in the office, they have they have their own tricks, you know, to undermine the. I'm not saying no, I hear you. I'm just saying to you that as a female, there are subtle ways that men you're doing your job, you're doing it well.
And they are some there's always a little comment which has to do with your gender in the sense that it is all you're looking so nice today under the. Well, I would I can imagine you'd put the mountains with me with a glass of wine. This is after a board meeting. Come on. You you could whatever, whatever. And it just it just deflates you because that person is or could be the managing director. But, you know, it is just how you react.
Of course, it wasn't really a great comment from him. So but I do remember when I was working in hospitality and and if I thought to one of my co-workers who was a man and or us so handsome today and they already know I want to ask something. So is it was it I think it can be a buffet. So if you say, oh, yeah, you look really good today. And they were like, but I need to bring them what I need to do.
So is this is just how you playing up this kind of thing. But yeah, of course the men can be really.
This is about this is about this is about hierarchy. Now, this is about this is not about Piers, Piers. You joke around, you see things you can and it's as friendly banter.
But when there is a senior, a senior person and an a junior person relative to speaking or even if they're peers and you're trying to put that person in their place, one boss said to me, why do you need to get this salary? Because you have a husband.
Once I was you know, I was worth the salary. OK, and what made it worse is that I was managing 50 men. And the boss didn't want to pay me back any more than any of any of us, doesn't want to pay any more money, doesn't matter. I mean, I'm not I'm not supporting I'm not saying that that guy was did something because he didn't. But I don't know. I mean, when you go to your boss and ask for an augmentation, he's always going to come up with some kind of bullshit not to pay you more.
So you have to you don't negotiate with them. Why? They have to pay you more. But I can say something else. So this is in a political context. Now, we'll move it to a more personal because in the corporate or the the organizational environment that there are, that's political. So let's let's take it more personal in terms of so is talking about. So what I came up with was men's behavior and relationships in terms of being controlling, in terms of not being able to deal with our emotions, in terms of what was jealousy, what was was there anything else around that?
So we're talking in a more personal relationship, because I think if we if we talk in a political, then it's going to be huge. But if we scale it back to a level, we still not going to have to cover much of it, but we're going to be able to. Make it a little bit more specific and more focused on. Okay, so anyone experience insights, problems, challenges? In terms of being in relationships, dealing with men.
Nice big freeze. So we got in my recent breakup with some breakup.
Oh, yes, I broke up with my boyfriend because he's the one who asked your husband for her telephone number. Yeah, he he he asked my tenant for number and then he maintained no and that he still doesn't think he did anything wrong. What do you guys think about the way. What do you want to listen to? OK, so we're talking about dealing with behavior now, specifically of being in the relationship. Yes, this is a behavior in the relationship.
So how do you pronounce your name? Mr. Martin. Use your last name. Well, let's see. What do you think? Well, I think it was the master. What a buster buster. Yeah, definitely, yeah, it's true, I mean, if you are dating a woman for four months, you are, I think is enough time to think that you are. I think I would feel like I'm in a serious relationship because I have basically I like in person.
So why do I need a telephone number? Because. So what we're talking about and the question now is. What problems and challenges are women facing in terms of men's emotional behavior? So in terms of anger, in terms of being controlling within the relationship, so we have covered so far, I think your your question is very specific, but it's outside of the context of this. OK. OK, so we have covered what happened, and I don't feel that like when you go through a breakup, you want to justify what happened and want to make sense of it.
And I feel that maybe you might necessarily want that. But this isn't like what we're talking about right now. OK, so so it's the problems that women are fighting and of we're not going to vote on. OK, men, fragile ego. Yeah. Yeah, well, we can talk about that when something uncomfortable is addressed, the default position is. To retreat to their comfort zone, they don't want to man up and take responsibility and venture into the unknown and to.
Further improve themselves. Yes, sir.
So like stone, Rolling Stone, of course, is when someone just shuts up and just won't say anything and one show any reaction. No, it's manipulation. So what's the manipulation? For someone to say, I can't trust you and you say. You can trust me then there is no point to continue this relationship and then I say, oh, I agree with you. There was no point in continuing the relationship for you, for your time, be honest with me.
OK, so so honesty in a relationship. So, OK, so all right, so let's take that one step at a time. So how many does has stonewalling being the problem to someone else has mentioned to stonewalling? Is that what you talked about is defensiveness. So which where someone might really go any deeper, they won't really talk about the issue, they'll just deflect it. So one way of dealing with of like. So stonewalling is one way where someone will just shut up and just won't go any further, defensiveness is another way of deflecting it.
So you're talking about defensiveness. So do we have any other examples or any other places where a problem or challenge? Just like things is this this woman is not to create a complicated story and they present that complicated story as it was the truth. So you are expected to accept an. That's that's an issue based on exciting, yeah. I think the infidelity as well. I think it's more men think, OK, now because of the families. It is.
Is getting better than that now that we want us to think of, but I think it's more than being because somehow the man handling the sex more easily and not like not like a real infidelity when the woman's. Do you think if you are giving your body to someone as it is infidelity? And I think I think if I don't give my soul or my love, it is. And they said, I love you. It was just sex. But what is your problem?
So I think it's still it's a little bit different from men and women equally. The other women. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so just quick enough of the public, since this is the night of Poles, who feels there is more infidelity from men than women. So hand up if you feel there's more infidelity for men and women.
Hand up if you feel there's more infidelity for women than for men. And hand up if you feel is equal. Well, man, she took that woman with the other women so equal. Yeah, I think sex. Traditionally, women have hidden that. I to be at a better place.
We are good at hiding. We are good at hiding so women know we are vulnerable. I think we are better to buy things, but the men are less. Better to realize things because they are they don't care. You know, sometimes I don't know if you saw that on Facebook or somewhere, if you want to speak with your husband, you can do that because it will be safe because they never listen. So they never listen.
So in terms of in terms of dealing with men's emotion. A lot of that comes from from Rose, as in the quality in terms of most men are stronger than most women. So typically, the man is stronger, you mean physically will physically? Well, physically, another man has had more power and so there's an inequality. Two relationships, so there's also, like, I think women not like the old joke about dating is a woman fears that it's going to be an ax murderer and a man fears that she's going to be overweight.
And recently there's been like the wolf whistling and women being harassed. And Sarah ever. Who was. Taken and killed women tend to be a more danger and. Traditionally, where there's been abuse, violence, and it was kind of kept quiet. So there's this we're dealing with that. Like coming from from the past, and so it's still remnants of that sense of danger for women, perhaps my perception I don't know if women feel that. I think if we live honestly and authentically, then we don't have that kind of fear.
OK, so I do agree that things happen to bad people. Generally speaking, I mean, that kind of thing. OK, OK, like a matter of life and death. All right. So let's talk let's talk about so you talked a little while ago about your circumstances and. You sometimes you in a relationship with someone and you don't fully know that person. And so during the course of the relationship, you find out things about them and you find that they're not the person that you really want to be in a relationship with.
But that's still have difficulty leaving them. Yes, and sometimes if you do not like something, you are in the relationship. You realize after three or four months or six months and, you know, the both of you are just taking off your mask, but you are just waiting for your first honeymoon thing. And after you realize this person is somebody else and it's not like you want to see that our journey together is over, goodbye. You don't need to stay in a bad relationship just to prove yourself.
You can change the other because you can just change or you can just go. Yeah, I can I can be with this man because I saw something in it.
It's just things I know it's because you can't help but notice the potential, what they could be insurmountable for what they are now.
Is that why you are why you are thinking about Wythenshawe, the man? Because I'm an idealist. Yeah, we talk about it. A man is more simple. Come on. If something be sorry, but let me assure you, they are the glue that have more potential. They do that have anything, but they show they are you. It is just you who is thinking, oh yeah, I can change them. No, you can't. I had already touched upon this idea that there are two mindsets.
A growth mindset. Who will change? We will learn to grow. And if you work things out and then you have the talk, which will never go anywhere, and they are what they are set in stone.
So they say that because she in it all the time and she is just going to want better relation with the other because Syria, just with the stupid man, because she tried to change them all. You a better guy, you are evil. Don't believe don't believe in the lie. My mom has spent her entire life trying to change my dad's. All in vain, so so there's also also said about some cost, some people don't want to leave a relationship because I've been two years, just so many people are stuck and the people are most stuck in relationships is because.
But but he's got this right. He's got this right. It's got this far. If you just change this. And do we really love someone if we want to change them?
Yes, because a man's greatest burden is unfulfilled potential if you truly love them and we want your help.
No, no, they know what the potential is, the potential to be someone better to to achieve education. But in whose eyes? Maybe what you think it's a potential maybe I think, oh, my God, what is wrong with that? So it's not the same. You can expect every man just like a baby, or you can go there for a first date and. OK, darling, can you tell me, could you cook? No.
OK, so next month, do you take laundry? Do you do this, this, this and after. OK, I can see you have potential to improve yourself in the housework, but no, it's not working like this. It's not that if you say no, I'm not interested. So no you cannot, you cannot expect and you cannot be in a relationship because what you what you want to see and what you want to change. Do you want to know what's happening when the man wants to change you?
Oh, if for the better. I'm up for it, you know, it it it is better in the future. Do you think it's near the your better stuff just because you always want to improve myself? Yeah, but you don't need a month to improve yourself. Oh well it is more fun to grow with a partner.
If you want to improve yourself, you can improve yourself in whatever way you want to do with man by your side helping you through it. You know, I don't think so. Sorry, I don't think so. Sometimes those investment, not relationship to start off with and you both find out. Each other's traits to start off with at the beginning of the relationship, that's all about the honeymoon period for the first three to six months, whatever it is that you choose to find out about each other, then you learn to grow with each other.
If you don't like what you see or hear within that first three to six months, then it's goodbye. I don't like what I'm hearing or see in. That's when you find out about each other because. I certainly wouldn't stick around after that period if I didn't like somebody. If you love somebody, if you fall in love with somebody after that time. You wouldn't want to change them because you fall in love with them because of how they are within that first few months now.
OK, so but if you want to change somebody, it means that you are looking for a project. You're not looking for a partner you want you're looking for someone else. You want to create something. You want to make something into something that you think is the perfect partner for you that's not accepting a person with their faults. We all need to improve, but it must come from within. It must not be at your behest. It is not your creation.
You have to accept that person for who they are. If you find that there is somebody who has too many faults that you don't like, then that person is not for you. That's I think that's that's the people. That's the people. I mean, I wouldn't say that maybe we still see that person compliment us. And obviously the first person doesn't exist. So that person will always have some problems or things that need development. So the question is the time that I'm going to be best to help that person do who is worthy, you know, because they are little things that you can deal with, but there are others that you can.
The question is, is the person really complimenting me? I mean, you know, in a way that is a relationship with people who to think that they might be on the best information. And if the person doesn't want to change and they think that they're fine the way they are, then you're going to be frustrated, I find. Well, so there's a balance. It depends. I think it depends how important it is for you that that person changes.
In example. Let's say I meet you, Sandra. OK, but you are a vegetarian. But I'm not very broadly. I don't want to change even doesn't matter how much I love you, but maybe I can adapt my behavior to you that, you know, could be some kind of agreement or negotiation. So we can go really well. Let's agree that you want to negotiate and you want to compromise. But if I think that I am fine the way I am and I am not going to change, that was an illustrated.
You're going to be frustrated. Yes, but you are delusional if you're saying to you the way you find the way you are. You can't say that about somebody you don't know. You can't say that they're delusional because you are. What you are trying to do is force your idea of what they ought to be onto them. Which is invading that person's right to be. So you are being selfish because you want that to make that person change, to become something that is befitting of your image of them.
So you are not recognizing that person's right to their autonomy of self, you know, of being who and how they want to be. In other words, if you love if you really love them, you will work with them. Yes, but you will still have to give them the leeway to be who they are.
Because then they are not authentic if they are going to modify their behaviors and themselves to be what you want them to be, not to modify a modified behavior, but to modify their character, it's still modifying behavior.
So I think what I think what you're talking about is. A fairly philosophical viewpoint that you have, that we're all we can all actually do something better. I think that's what you're really talking about is not. Yes, that we can all become better. Always a work in progress. OK, so but we have to recognize that. So this leads us perfectly to conflict. So conflict is where we have different philosophical views, different behaviors, different thoughts.
And so that's something that's deep to you that you believe that we're going to actualize and we can we can always become better and we can all become something. Some people may hold the belief that they're happy as they are, that this is it. This is who they are. I don't change for someone. And so all conflict is whether it's philosophical, whether it's behavioral or conflict is where you have a view. And the core reason that we have so much conflict in relationships is that no two people have the same beliefs and lots of people will go through the first six months, first two years or even five years ago.
We're so similar, we will live in the same kind of house. We both like doing this for the best that there is, but everyone is going to find the point where they disagree. And so it's about the respect for someone's different viewpoint. And the ability to have someone to hold what you like, stay true to what you believe. And allow them to believe what they believe and co-exist with that. So on this cool way, we've got we've all got different views, there's points that is points that we agree on and it's points that we disagree on.
But we have to respect each other's rights because otherwise if we if we're going to look so so you have individual, you have you have societal, if you look at the communists, the communist societies that we've had Nazi. So the Nazis were about everyone must believe what I believe. And so when we look individually in a relationship, when we say this is for the best. Hitler did what he did because he felt it was for the best for the German people.
Stalin did what he did because of he felt it was for the best for the German people. And so when we do a relationship and we say it would be better because of this, we doing on an individual level the same behavior. So you think it's about control? I know you talk about ideologies that those people do not have a genuine tension. They they are.
They they had they have come on, stallion. He let both of them. They were men, but they they believe they are working for their nature. But I think and it's the same inability to become more honest is always good for themselves. Yeah. But when you are honest with the other person, you want to speak yourself or because maybe it is just what you want to see and you are not going to accept the other person, is not that what you want to see actually, and probably that they are willing to change for some reliever, but you cannot change everybody for for so that is so it's not a one hundred percent is like you want to turn me a man, you want to be successful because it's not like that.
Or if you want to change, don't know to be more. I don't know feminism, I don't think it's going to be. Working OK, except for you guys are the vessel, find an honest man instead. Yeah, but yeah, you need to find that one as man and you need to learn to compromise because that is the. The good way to find a good relationship now you can accept nobody is perfect.
Can compromise on hobbies, lots of things, interests that are not honest because nobody can compromise on honesty. Yeah, but it's this thing of you may think you want that, but actually brutal upfront honesty can be too much. It can be hurtful. And sometimes you just want an easy life.
And I don't want an easy life. I want everybody to be brutally honest with me. You do this and you have to hide it. How do you know how do you how do you know? So you come downstairs and address this, took you half an hour to choose and then the guy goes, no, it's not. I know.
You know, I do remember one of my ex was really like he he told me it's like, oh, I do that like this. And I was like, I knew it. He doesn't like that. He didn't like. That's good. Because it was sexy. And is that because it didn't suit me is just because it was like, no, you you show too much and they were like, no, I don't. And it was a long skirt.
I just thought it was a small Lepke. It was a long skirt. But still he was like, yeah, it's too much. And I was like, fuck off, no better. So it is just I like so you can choose something for half an hour and you are so confident, you know, it doesn't matter what the man says, but for somebody who is interested and not a clone of ourselves, I'd be dead bored if I found somebody who was exactly like me.
I don't want to or for me, I want I want differences to keep me interested. Oh yes. Differences in personality. Not in terms of character. Yeah, but the thing is, they attract somebody that's in terms of personality, in terms of values and the character. But you're still not going to find everything on the list. This is the point. There is got to be compromise and there's got to be a working through of those things because we can't have a shopping list for human beings.
We have different characteristics. We have had different upbringings. There is differences in how we see right and wrong. And those are the things that we negotiate when we go dating and we develop a relationship. And if we find that there are too few ticks on the list, then we say, OK, this is a fail grade. So this relationship has not made the grade for me to accept it. So we need to part ways. I think it all depends on what our expectations of relationships are.
For me, um, relationship is a spiritual experience and through genuine love and the brutal honesty, both parties can transcend themselves. There's a lot of people they they are OK with co-exist, that's fine, but I have high expectations for my relationship. Can I can I just ask you, in terms of character. Yes. What kind of man would you hold up as an example?
Jordan Peterson. It's not perfect. I don't really I don't agree with everything that he's he's concept of honesty in relationship resonates with a lot, of course, of his two year old. I'm only attracted to men of my age and who's also handsome. Like I said, he's the character. I don't know. I've actually got his book by then. I've not really listened to very much of his. I don't really know much about his his views. Is there anyone else?
Oh, me, um. So at the moment, I'm reading his book. Anywhere else. There are a lot of personalities, a YouTube. Obviously, no one is perfect, but they have to have this man said that they want to improve themselves and become more perfect. OK, so. So. And the two transcend. Themselves. Brutal honesty is OK, but in terms of this conversation, we this has become very narrow. So to make it general.
And applicable to everyone and everyone who's here. We're really talking about what emotions? And what problems and challenges women are universal or university as much as possible dealing with? We're talking about conflicts in relationships. Conflicts, yes, so amount of conflicts are good because if you're too comfortable, then we can't grow. OK, so, again, that's that's a philosophical, philosophical viewpoint, so that's not going to be everyone's experience. Yes, sorry, I was just going to say, in my experience, I think difficulty with conflict resolution and compromising from the other party.
I don't know. I think, like in my last relationship was in a relationship with a guy. And he said that compromise to him was him winning or him having to admit defeat. And it was thought that seemed like a great philosopher to have to me, really. So obviously, we're going to get your own way of explaining compromise and some of the people quite difficult. I think. I think we talked about this before, about compromise is really where both sides.
When they decide who gets whether they want really and. We. We took so here here is like. We talked about the compromise on the big things, compromise on the little things like where we go to dinner, but not on the bigger things. And now I think it's more about. Understanding and transcending. So understanding what's on that level and then what's above it, to find the point of agreement. So. So, like I said, it's odd that someone has had a fixed, fixed idea and is willing to communicate, so that's really that's really about communication and connection.
So what we're talking about in terms of the Stonewall Inn, in terms of defensiveness and in terms of that fixedness, is an inability to is an unwillingness to connect any deeper. Because I think what I was talking about is like if you're going to go on this journey together, so I did this journey, then what I was really about is an ever, ever deepening connection. And that connection can only go to the point that you're willing to be honest and that honesty.
And so I think we have to be more specific about compromise, because what what a compromise means is that you don't get what you want and they don't get what they want. And I think he was honest in that recognition. But then the issue is, OK, so how do you resolve it, and was there any alternative or. And generally, his arguments that really so I guess it was kind of like against any possibility, but it was very much he gets his way or he loses and they just stonewalls.
It goes nowhere. So, yeah, it's just the willingness to. To grow together or not, right? I guess, but here's why he. From women, it's a lot of men are very fixed, as you know. I do this and you, like, fixed them routines and habits and views. Is that your experience? I think with the age, I am getting fixed as well. You know what, I was going to say that today, because I use every relationship I've been in.
It's been with people older than me up to 13 years old. And although there's these benefits to that, I think people of that generation, of that generation as well, in my experience, do tend to have a certain kind of mindset, a fixed mindset, a bit more macho, not if not not being vulnerable to that kind of thing that can just be ready for strength and. Do you think you choose, oh, the partners, because subconsciously you don't want to have a permanent relationship?
So you'll choose an unstable situation in case it doesn't work out, you'll get it. Now, I know a lot of it, but no, I lost the. OK. I was a lot of takes a lot out of you, though, it sounds to me like it takes a lot out of you in terms of compromise in which they drain it.
Because in my younger years, I so I chose the older man and the then younger man because subconsciously I wasn't willing to settle down yet. So I chose unstable situations. And the other time, I mean, the position to have a permanent relationship and to have children to take real responsibilities. I'm not Attracta either any more I prefer. A man of my age. A genuine relationship. So just to pick up from what Sandra said, is insensitive, so this like if you look at game theory, it's a game theory, is the idea that.
So the prisoner's dilemma. So if two people go to prison and if. If one. If they if neither them, it makes the crime. They'll both get so many years if one of them admits they'll get less, but the other one will get free and if they both admit the crime, they'll get less. And so compromise is really game theory because if you compromise. And the other person doesn't they win. If you both compromise, you both win out more.
And if Niva compromises, then you lose, and so in the same way that in the short term the prisoner wins by like is my and the one he's honorable, gets stuck with a longer prison sentence in the same way in the short term in relationships, people who who don't compromise when they have a partner who will win out. But in the long term like that, the basis of humanity where our strength has come from is our ability to cooperate and collaborate, and that comes from there's a general acceptance that we work together.
And that is all game theory, that where we both where we don't take advantage of people because like in the old village, the person who took advantage when you only had hundred fifty people and you knew everyone in that village, you knew who would take advantage and everyone would play it like, you know, like in terms of game theory, I'm not going to help them. I'm not going to cooperate. So the argument is that we've evolved to cooperate.
However, I think a lot of people, I think relationship wise, I've talked about have been a medieval mentality, that we're backwards in terms of relationships. And so a lot of people play that relationship game by winning at the expense of someone else and ultimately the. Is probably the dynamic that most damages relationships. Wasn't it just comes down to respect for me, fun or disrespectful, like bowling?
Yes, and what that comes down to is and this is what makes dating so toxic is that people go on to a dating site. I want this. I want I want I want. I want. And it's kind of gossipy mentality, whereas relationships really work from a giving mentality because if you have two individuals and I'm going to get I'm going to get I'm going to get and someone's looking at what they can get, then what happens is if you look at like a bank account in terms of deposits and interest and compound interest, that bank account becomes depleted and eventually the relationship becomes unsustainable because one person is not getting anything from it.
But when two people give to the relationship the relationship, wealth becomes so much richer that it can take more stress and things that when they happen because and there's also like the compound interest effect so that the wealth of the relationship grows and that's what makes the stronger relationship. And so when someone doesn't have that respect for you or for the relationship, that's why ultimately it will fail. So so, yes. I think it's the principle behind compromise, but the mechanism of compromise is needs to be more refined.
If that makes sense. But we need a language to negotiate that space, and many of us don't have that vocabulary, and so we resort to temper tantrums to stand firm in our corner, not to yield it because it seems like we're retreating or we are losing face, et cetera, et cetera. So I think it's not that compromise is something that we don't want to do. But even if we attempt it many times, we are not successful because we are not negotiating necessarily in good faith sometimes or using the right the right language, white expressions sometimes because sometimes you can say you can say something, but your actions defeat what you are trying to say because they don't coincide.
So I think in that space, we we are probably deficient somewhat because it's not about one partner losing and one winning. And I think that's where we run into difficulties because. There are some people who are just they just have to win at all costs. I think that's a very narcissistic who operates on a zero sum game, but they exist. That's the point. Everything is. Transactional to them?
Yeah, yeah, and I think the the solution is somewhere in between the compromise and the. And obviously, you said it was like the. I forgot what was going to say, but is between a compromise and a transcending. As in. As enough Africa, but it's about it's about the honesty to go beyond compromise, to say it's not holding the fixed fixed idea, because if you have a fixed idea of what it's going to be, then you're going to win.
So when two people get together in a relationship, they both have an idea of what the dream relationship is. And they operate according to their dream relationship, but Niva, none of us know what's really going to make us happy and what the dream relationship really is. So we're finally talking about the brutal honesty each and the constant about compromise. What we need to do is compromise on our vision. Because if we stay in a relationship and we say this is our vision, this is going to make me happy.
This is what has to be then. What happens is we're not growing because we're following our flawed idea of what a flawed idea of what's going to make us happy, whereas actually the relationships is really going to happen, is really going to make us happy, isn't the relationship that we need to change to please our partner? But is that the relationship is going to change our idea of what the relationship should be so that we have a better idea so that we grow from the friction of the relationship.
So we're here with different perspectives and the value we don't none of us are going to convince each other, but the value that we might have is that we might see something that we. Didn't see before. And it's the friction of different perspectives that helps us see all float ideas, our flawed assumptions and what's really going to work for us. I think also you've got to have a good relationship with yourself first before you enter into any relationship. You've got to know yourself and know your self worth.
Before we go anywhere. And go into any relationship and not know your true value. Not fully yet, because I'm part of a relationship is getting to understand someone and so many of us have never really understood ourselves and said we can't. So a lot of the frustration and we're talking about the controlling behavior, all of these things are kind of about because we don't really know what's best and we're unwilling to drop our flawed assumptions for what could be better.
And equally like the stonewalling on things is because it's all about us not having the language. So it's not having the language, but it's also not have any awareness of who we are and not. Particularly men in both sexes, but men typically are less self-aware and so because they know they're unable to express it and that can cause frustration. And the Biver Carl. Yeah, well, the thing that I was thinking might be difficult is that a lot of people seem to have a belief that a man and a woman can't actually be friends, a genuine platonic connection without any sexual interest or without ever rearing its ugly or pretty head.
And there's movies about this and this sort of dance and and somebody gets married, then all of them. Suddenly they want them. And they've been best friends for years. And so. The reason I'm highlighting this is how do you actually establish an authentic, genuine connection is not driven by sex or want or desires or needs or later contacts for a relationship if there's a fundamental belief beneath all of the. You're trying to get to an end result rather than actually enjoying the person.
If there is no sexual attraction, then a man or woman can be friends. I think if they have a sexual attraction, they can be friends. I do have more more than one male friends I found with them more than 10 years if we just agreed to be friends. And that's really just the key then sex, because probably, you know, the sex is changing everything and vows to to be friends. We don't want to ruin that. But we have and I know them.
One of them is I think we are friends 20 years then and the other is 30 or something. So and it's working sometimes it's still it's coming on and doing the sex would be there. So it's just like this, but it's fine.
And is is the sex attraction is still there, but we just decided not to go with it. Well, yeah, Nikko's just said what was the core of the question, again, the core I'm saying is that there does seem to be a societal belief subconsciously that men and women cannot just be friends. And Rob was just saying that we need to get to know each other to establish a connection if we're blinded by lust, desire, wanting more, expecting more, can we really get that fundamental baseline, authentic connection without sort of sex muddying the waters, so to speak?
I think you can, but because I understand that closeness that you can get from having a platonic friend of the opposite sex and yes, and you dispense with the issues around sex, you get it out of the way soon. And then that leaves you the space to grow as friends without that pressure. But I think in a relationship, you can have that. But you've got to there are lots of barriers that you need to put down over time.
You have to have trust. And if you don't have that trust and that deep, the belief that you are, that you can depend on that person, that what you're seeing of that person is authentic. Because I can tell you that I trust in person if I go into a relationship, I do not walk around thinking that he's cheating on me, he's cheating on me, he's cheating on me, or I need to look at his friends and see, is he is he sleeping with her and not like that.
But once I know that you are cheating on me, it all changes. So I and that's the point. If I went out before I get to that point, I'm open to discussions about lots of things. I'm open to working on the relationship. I'm open to making myself vulnerable and all the rest of it. But once elements of distrust, you know, mistrust come into the whole thing, then all of that I close off. So that growth that you're talking about.
Just get started right then and there. I think we come in, we we come into the world full of assumptions that flawed assumptions, flawed beliefs, flawed ideas, and it's from the having that connection and having those conversations that we overcome is only from the shocking problems are a great opportunity. That you can see problems are how we find our flawed assumptions. And so what's really important is. The honesty, respect and ability to to challenge what's underpinning them.
And. So the relationship will outgrow society. So we talked about these problems, but the way that the society is going to change is from relationships because what you're doing is you're redefining. So when you're in a relationship. I've got this vision. I've got this vision and I'm free to conflict. We are agreeing a shared vision. And in that whole thing, we're finding the flawed assumptions of a guy. Yeah, but this is just because this is what I believe came from my childhood, which is in my culture and my conditioning.
And so that's how we change things. And when enough relationships of change that we see through. The flawed assumptions, that's when the society changes. Does my sense. I think even if. Two people have a genuine friendship if. But eventually. But either or both of them will enter into relationships if their partners. Have an issue with that. There is a party. I think those two people should probably pipe down the friendship. And prioritize their relationships.
Can can I just challenge something that they were OK, OK? Is the use of the word should. OK, maybe I shouldn't say should ideally they would be OK, but the the the assumption of the question. The assumption of the statement implies that there is some external authority or there's some truth that transcends the individual. And so it was then happening is. In a relationship like I have my vision and the other person has their vision and. If if you say mine is greater than yours, then it's about power and control.
OK, so I think it has to be individual. I think I think is a problem for people like me who write and and the courses and workshops and things, that is a problem that I've always disliked is where people claim themselves to be a relationship expert. Because what they're saying is, I know better than you and I think we have to distinguish between experience and expertise. And then there's a distinction between personal values. And so this is a problem when someone says, like the whole I was a loser and then I did this and now I'm super and look how rich I am and look how great I am and look at what my teeth are.
What they're really saying is I'm better than you. And if you do what I do, you'll be better. You'll be better than you are. And that's there's an assumption there's a value system in that Scibetta is a value. There is a value judgment. And I think respect is enabling each person to have their own value. Enabling each person to have their own outcome. And so there can I think people, people who have experienced like I feel like I have something to share because of my experience and because I've studied and I'm aware of a lot of things and I've seen a lot of things.
But this. It's not for me to give someone the values. So what my way is understanding what someone wants, what someone's problem is and navigating to that, but it's not for me to tell someone. You should do this. Because what what we did then is we're not distinguishing between our values. And experience and expertise. So when someone says, like, for example, I'm a relationship coach, I'm a Gary.
Then, like I learned a lot from the governments, but I don't necessarily share the same values. And I can learn a lot from other people's books without having their values and respect for someone else to be able to make that journey easier. Overcome their problems, but without ascribing to them. My values. And I think individually and relationships, we can see where people make problems, we can see because we've got experience or because we've got a detached view that we can see things that they could be better.
But there's a distinction between. Supporting someone in where they want to go and telling them where they should go. Yeah, OK, so by your logic, my boyfriend didn't do anything wrong, behaving like a peacock, getting lots of woman's. No.
Well, maybe not by his, maybe not by his value system, but it depends what he wants. Does he want a long term stable relationship, in which case that's not going to work for him? Or does he want to sleep around? Well, because I couldn't trust him to begin with, and so this kind of behavior just triggered. Just compound my mistrust of him, and I know because I maintain a very healthy boundary with all other men.
But of course, he didn't ask me to do that, but I back nice back, but I did ask him to do that. I want him to want to do that for me. So your system or your luck, when you look at your values and your behavior is better aligned to a lasting long term relationship in that sense than his, but maybe he didn't want a lasting long term relationship. Maybe he wanted to sleep with lots of women.
And that's we're all given free will. And so it's not for us. If someone wants to sleep around, then that's their choice. And if someone wants a lasting relationship, that's their choice, where we have the free will to be able to choose whichever we want.
Yes, well. But how do you define that up front?
This is the question. How do we know what each person, each party wants? I was just going to say, wouldn't it be nice if we could distinguish ourselves by, like, the color of the rainbow and then you meet your purple as well. It's so little that you your pink to sleep around. You're thinking, yeah, if I think if if we had honestly. And. Then that would be that easy, but the problem, the barrier to that is judgment.
It's judgment that we should all want a relationship. We should all want certain things. And if we if there wasn't that judgment like I was, you talked about the bar in Sweden. Yeah. I mean, if we had them, you know, maybe they would be so much more sensitive just for reference for anyone, wasn't there, that apparently there is a bar that Karl has bookmarked for where you go and it's, what, six questions or something?
And then you go off and have sex? Yes. Five, three or five.
Sorry, what was that? So there is a bar, apparently Sweden. Is that. No way. No way. So there is a bar where I might be bitchy because all I got was that there was about three questions. Is there any more to it or. And do we know the name of the bar?
Are you are you ordered to get away right now? Because that's the link that explains about the Norwegian dating culture. I did have it. But what it's done, it's it's a culture. It's a way of doing things and. Yeah, good for everyone.
What's really interesting is I've been I've been watching Vikings on CBS, which is the Hawks. And I'm I'm not really interested in like the Vikings and the Christians and how the different perceptions of the gods of what the gods want change the behavior. And so the Scandinavians have a much more open sexuality, a much looser, much freer sexually because they don't have judgment from the gods, whereas the Christians are really repressed and, you know, just like the priests, the shocking people on the side, but pretending to be so pious and the that there's all these intermingling affairs but no one's open about it.
Whereas in the Scandinavian ones, which is actually Norway, they they're much more open. And so they relate to what they what you believe religiously or spiritually. It's going to affect your value judgments, which can then affect your behavior. I just checked the site. There's an interesting line. Sex isn't a big deal. Intimacy is.
And therein lies I think, therein lies the rub. You know, it's maybe too feminist or something like that, but I did have. Not too long ago, a relationship, but I talked to a guy I didn't want anything. I do have just one body part of him. I want to use it and you can go home. And he was he was really offended and he tried to drag me into a relationship. And I know I do not want to be you as boyfriend girlfriend.
I even just have sex with you was the problem with it. And he he was offended and he I think we didn't speak since we broke up because he was like, no, I don't want that. And I was like, what's wrong with you? You are a man. You have to be happy to have just a sex relationship. You don't need to do anything that he was. And I am ready because we still have some men. So why what was the problem with why?
Well, it was gay. No, he wasn't. I can tell you, I think what we really want is. So, yes, there's this perception, like all men will have sex, right? And what that really is, is not about sex, but it's about what sex means. And sex can be power, sex can be validation, and because if you look at lots of women complain about men who are in relationships, I've been in a relationship a few years and demand as much sex is watching porn.
And she's like, oh, why? Why does she want. Because and it's not because it's not about sex. So where the perception of men floundering and being unfaithful is more about when a man needs validation from sex. So in your example, I would say what he he let one perspective is that maybe he took that as well. I'm not good for sex. And he took that as OK. Well, I want the challenge of I want to be important enough that you want a relationship with me.
And where he felt that was like where we were going for sex and so so in that sense, sex can become a status, but it became not good enough in some other way.
So we can be honest or we can be honest. Not you can, but not everyone can handle honesty. So I think if you really want like that connection, that relationship, then you really want honesty, but not everyone. But again, you can only connect to the level that someone is willing to be honest and vulnerable. And also, he may have been experienced in what women experienced in a lot of circumstances like that, that object objectification wherein it's.
Yeah, that's. What's your flaw. And also, it's not familiar, it's not a familiar feeling for him, it's unknown, so it's scary. And also from from the way you said, Agnese, I wasn't sure if he was going home with the body parts.
Yeah, I was afraid of it. Doesn't this tricky dynamic always play out the same way that one person catches feelings? You know, some many, many years ago, I kind of tried something like that, and that's when we had a date. And I wasn't really that plus by her and I didn't really. But then we kept spending more time as friends and then eventually slept together and more so. And then I got to see that she had really good qualities.
And then I came to like her in the end when originally I didn't. And yeah, she wasn't interested in anything further. Well, I should have perhaps, but I didn't see her first endeavoured to start a relationship or something. Yeah. I think you really hit on why sex is a problem more than sex, because it's the emotions attached. And when we try to separate one from the other and then we have sex, which we see is intimacy.
So it's the reason why mechanically polyamory and open relationships can work because and I know that they do for some people. But when you look at statistically, they have a higher rate of failure. So mechanically. It is not as effective. Because there is one gets pushed, maybe someone's being pushed into it, or maybe one has more feelings. I mean, I think the whole dynamics of dating is that someone wants someone who wants someone else to want someone else is then comes into play in the relationships where part of what makes relationships.
So that is I commit to you. I commit to you. And so that there's some sacrifice. There's some sacrifice. Like I've sacrificed an awful choices for this, which shows a commitment. And if you don't have that. Then it becomes messy because we were emotional creatures more than we realize. Should it be avoided? Well, should wall emotions or sex think we can avoid either of those? But yeah. Friends with benefits, let's say casual.
But again, I think it's a value judgment. And I think this individual. I think the problem is that we like blanket judgments, all of these like the type of relationship that you have, whether you have friends with benefits, where all of these things are negotiable, that all our choices. But the problem is we've moved from a model where you must do this, which comes from someone who was talking about the Vikings, that old Christian. Nobody has built the society with his judgment.
And if you do anything outside, but actually in order for us to be happy, I you talked about the actualisation. Actualisation has to come from us. It's what we like. Every flower flourishes and blooms from its blueprint. We have the flowers in bloom from our blueprint we call the problem is which all trying to fit in to mounds. And so all every type of relationship there's ever been. And these aren't necessarily know. These are happening tribes actually thousands of years ago and the more remote tribes now.
So. It's what works for you and what works for you depends on your level of emotional maturity, level of awareness, all of these things. So it's understanding that and then you choose. So I don't think that going back to the value judgments, I don't think we can say this is right, this isn't right. It's about everyone has to choose what's right for them. But we have to be honest. Are we choosing it because it's easy?
Because, like, this is the whole emotional thing of of fear, greed, or are we choosing it because it's right? And that's what the really tough bit to be honest about, are we want to change someone because it's good for them or because it's what it's better for us. Yes, sir, I know I just spoke to own speaker, but it's just kind of my mind, it's a really. Kind of an enlightening experience sort of thing, but I kind of met somebody and got talking to them and they were asking me loads of questions and I felt quite flattered.
And I looked in the eye and I just I just knew there was nothing really there. She was absolutely beautiful and showing an interest. Anyway, some friends sort of dragged me off to something. And then later on, as the evening ended, a kind of said, give me a call. And when we had a meal, it did come out.
I tasted it verbally that you literally can't put some of that. It's not there. But I still want I still had the desire for her. I was still attracted to her and all the other things that are very standard interactions. But I knew on a deeper level, just almost instantly from our first conversation. But it just it was the. And I hate it. I really like all the rest of that deep pool, that something that you just know, whether it's absolutely right or not, wasn't there.
You think that's like an egg because you were actually in person, like a ceremony thing. Like a chemical attraction. I don't know. I just there was nothing wrong with those, she was great, you know, it made me wonder if you just instinctively knew that somehow you were incompressible know, like you say on a deep level. I don't know. Was she showing interest in you that she wanted to be with you? She was asking me lots of questions because.
Oh, no, I'm sorry. I don't mean to pry. So I know I'm an open person, so I'm responding back. So she was kind of coming at me, if that makes sense. And, you know, the chemistry that elusive, that elusive term.
Yeah, the chemistry is maybe sometimes people are just curious. For example, I can be very curious with people and ask them loads of questions because I want to understand people. I'm interested in people, but I'm not actually interested in them in a romantic way which can give people wrong ideas. Are you a police officer now?
But you took her out to dinner, which says, I'm interested in you and I want to get to know you, not just sitting down casually and asking questions of someone. So there's a hint that I might we could like each other.
Yeah, but let me explain then that I didn't do this consciously. Oh, I don't like you deeply, but I'm still going to ask you out to dinner so I can sleep with you. It was I didn't know what I was looking at the time. I didn't know that kind of air or something in front of me. I was in my awareness that you're not right for me. I didn't know what I was looking at. But when we had dinner, the topic come up, oddly enough, and then the penny started to droppable.
There are people that you meet who have all the tick, all the boxes on the surface, but there is that element that you can't even define which says, no, this is this this doesn't work. If there's something that's missing and you will have the conversation, you'll ask the questions. The person is gorgeous to look at. Everybody would love to be with that person, but. It just doesn't work, we can choose who we fall in love with.
We have no free will.
Well, yeah, but also I've also not too long ago since goes the other way with somebody who I don't find physically attractive. I think their lifestyle, they live like a pig and there's just nothing that binds us. But we had like this real lust in this crummy animal thing all over levels. And they've actually got a boyfriend now and they still talk to he was like, what is this? Or what happened? That we don't try to analyze it because it just doesn't.
And we have no idea why we're so attracted to each other. Yeah, I honestly. But this is not what it said. I just I don't want to I don't want to be with them in any capacity. It's strange.
Other than the kind of animal magnetism the pheromones are fluid idea is different.
Like what do they mean they live like pig.
OK, so like they love like takeaways and things like that. It's OK for some. But I like to make all homemade food to make most things from scratch. And I just when they say, oh, I'm having a lovely takeaway from somewhere like to me there's nothing worse. It's terrible. OK, that's nothing.
That's just like a lifestyle. It has nothing. I mean, it doesn't affect attraction to chemistry at all. So now you have got unfinished business with him. What are you going to do about it? I don't smoke in the chat room. I have to be careful to say, you know what? Nothing. She's got a boyfriend. Nothing. Nothing can happen. You can dream of doing that. She talks to you. She still talks. And she's attracted to you.
Yes, well. She's unreliable with you on this one, Carol. If, if, if, if the food is no food and all of those things. No, no, no, no, no, that can't context into anything long term. No way. I have had this experience of singing.
I'm Netcare. My animal magnetism lets you guys put it with people in the gym before. So I just shut down. I didn't give any signal. I could feel the intensity. Even though we didn't speak anything, we never spoke. Do you tend to find that you have it with people who, you know, are not going to be good for you? As I always do, and I never go that I'm just like I like bad boys, I like to go with them now.
Nodaway in the eyes of the net.
So you're not going there? No, I'm too cautious. No fun game. But so far, what I've got to keep safe on that night.
We've run over again and I've got another call in a little while. So before we go, so we've spoken about women's challenges and problems in relationships. And if we just go around quickly in a minute. Everyone to give universal advice to women. In the problems and challenges, so everyone is going to be an agony aunt, uncle who's going to go, Ignacia, you're right next to me in the box. In one minute, your advice to women, universal advice to women in relationships one.
Be open minded. Thank you. Col. Sorry, be open minded, that's too vague, but then isn't it like some of the greatest wisdom is like koans and the mind about aging and all of these things are because of the vagueness. There's interpretation in when we see precise, we're imposing. OK, if I were your next and so you can get to a question, I was thinking how to transcend the equal ego. Do you think we should just follow our heart?
Without expecting any result, so we detach from the outcome. OK, so in one minute. I would like you to give that advice to someone who asked you that question, your best advice in one minute. Me, to that very question that you asked, how would you answer? Um, I think. I I started that way. With my latest relationship. But then, um, so I was just giving him unconditional love, hoping to help him to transcend himself, but then.
It because he wasn't on the same page, on the same wavelength and events, but we're looking forward to having one more. I guess. I don't know if both the parties are on the same page. They'll be fantastic both to surrender their ego. But if only one I don't know better, you gotta to experience what you have to experience. You'll feel. Impelled to experience in order to transcend yourself. Because I always follow my heart, I'm not a person who can control my emotions and lots of people can they send the advice they give me.
Thank you, Sandra. I'm a journalist.
If anyone wants us to come back after they're not ready, do not end relationships with.
With defined boundaries present, go with the flow, be flexible, and it may take you and you may you may experience something that's bigger and better than your expectations.
That's the same as be open minded in a way. But it's beyond it's beyond just being open minded because you have to consciously look at your expectations and your boundaries in terms of what you wanted. So it's it's more than just being open saying that you're open minded. You have to consciously look at what it is that you you were using to frame your expectations of a relationship, and then you have to consciously pull those boundaries down. OK, it just say be open minded, but what does that mean?
That's what I'm getting at. If you know what I mean. Yeah. Carl. Just to be brave. And yeah, like you were saying earlier, vulnerability and communication and see it through the prism, Sarah. And just to be true to yourself and know yourself. Get to know yourself. I don't know why history has ever fully understand themselves nor. Another person would just wrap it up, so everyone's like last minute words, we're very short and very precise.
I see you've got to keep talking. You you've got to have the self-awareness, the words that the other person and you've got to want the same thing. You've got to be prepared to make the same amount of effort, the same amount of compromise. And the minute there's any convergence and one of the recognizes that you've just got to. To address it, is it fixable, isn't it? Is it something that you can compromise on, isn't it, and just work it out and not just head down?
So draw or wind power, it's just keep that communication channel open for me. Communication and honesty and trust has to be paramount, I think. And to establish that, you've both got to know what you both want and share that and talk about it and keep up to date. Keep keep that commitment that the channels of communication open and just be honest. And you add these. OK, so I think. Every woman has valley, I have to believe.
And there things because sometimes it's your gut is saying it's telling the to just don't want to do sometimes, you know. Much more earlier, the other person is not good for you, but you do want to override is kind of an unjust belief, is the one they say you need to believe yourself. Nicole. On a similar vein, I think your intuition and your good instincts will tell you a lot. Definitely, I think communication is key and the basic fear is that both be vulnerable because if you do, you might win the prize.
So it anyway, what you got to lose, Ignacia? I think I already say in York, oh, sorry, you've got to talk to the other Ignacia Kaifeng. Hi. I've been listening all night. I don't really have any advice because I don't think I'm qualified to give any advice to anybody about relationships. Clearly, I'm not very successful. Actually, I'm a failure in that. But just a bit of light. My thought about tonight and I think.
This is how I feel after listening to what you guys were saying, I think it's is in our human nature to protect ourself and look after our own. Benefit own mental health, emotions, things like that, and look after we are looking for what's good for us, we want what's good for us and you could say that's selfish, but it's clearly we all have the same DNA fundamentally and sometimes. In relationship to, I think. What we were looking for us individually, what we think is good for us individually is also what's good for the other one, and then we are a good match and or otherwise we are not.
And that's that is if we are not a good match, there's no point over. Analyze it and keep lingering around. And that's how I feel. That's cute. In just one thing I wanted to pick up on is that a lot of people feel like a failure in a relationship. And if you it depends on how you judge it. And if you judge it as in a relationship hasn't worked, then that's going back to what we talked about before.
That's a finite time, whereas I think relationships are really part of life and it's like, how do you navigate through life? And you can only be a failure if the game's over. And so a relationship not working is necessarily a failure. It's just part of like if you were driving somewhere. So a relationship is really about navigating. And if you were driving somewhere and the road was closed off and you were diverted, that's not a failure. It's just you moving around there.
And sometimes in life we have to move like life gives us the context. And I think a lot of people. There is this pressure that you're winning if you're in a relationship, but nobody knows what someone's relationship is like behind closed doors, no one knows how someone feels. And I think there's a lot of people that are more than happy being single than people who are in relationships is all about whether you want to be and how are you feeling along the way.
And sometimes relationships fail and it's not it's just because they want the right person for you or or you couldn't have it. Like, you can work things out. And it's not necessarily a failure. It's just your path. And everyone's got a different path and it's not. I think one of the big problems in relationships is comparison and expectations. And if we take away the comparisons and the expectations because we're only on our path, it doesn't matter how anyone else is doing and our expectations are what's going to disappoint us.
So it's just recognizing here's where I am and we can always do better and we can always do worse. But it's not failing. Janice. I trust your gut feelings as well, but I also keep respect for the relationship and each other have the difficult discussions because I to grow and keep fun as an important element. I think when everyone gets busy and it's often something that, you know, you can get so serious about trying to make this relationship work, that sucks the fun out of it.
So I think, you know, especially in stressful life, you need to really keep that in mind. Nicole. So what is Nichol's shocking? We call it might not be that OK? Thank you for your words of wisdom and. See you next week, hopefully. Have a great week. Thank you so much. We'll see you from. I.