Sex, Sin and Slutshaming

    Sex and money are the taboo subjects. that few people are comfortable talking about. In this episode we discussed the way we look at sex and the problems it causes for us.

    Transcript

    Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. Good evening, everyone. Tonight, we're talking about sex, sin, sin and slut shaming in the breakout rooms, you it was a quick poll of if you were to be reborn and you could choose knowing what you know now, would you choose to be reborn, male or female male so that I don't have to give birth male.

    So I have to have a period. I do not have time for that.

    I think this is not a sweeping statement of society. But I think, guys, I get envious of the way that guy's mind works in that they seem to take stress more in their stride. And it seems to be much more blissful place, frankly, than for a woman so that I'm envious of. And Nicole, I disagree as oneman, the nuclear just stated that I think like a man, so. It's it's it's the brain function. I think it's more of an environment as opposed to gender.

    But back to the question, I prefer to be a woman. I think as a woman, despite a period and I've never given a bad side or about that, I have the flexibility to enjoy both masculine and feminine energy at a level where I cannot be judged by society as opposed to a guy. I feel that gays are limited when it comes to them acting as human as opposed to me.

    I think I come back as a female. I'm female all the way.

    I would go to the opposite side of the coin aisle. I would be female. I'm just saying, you know, let's try it. I know it's just is still human. Oh, sorry. Oh, sorry.

    You you you you don't have to have labor pains and and eject a child. I had a cesarean section. I don't know what labor pain is like.

    It's I can't tell you, but I was on my own. But I will definitely come back a guy but not because I don't think about being a woman is not worth it or anything like that. Although on the lighter side, I will suggest that I will probably stand a bit further away because the last few times I got my arms really above is called because of the labor pains that she was going through. So I was too close. So, you know, when she is, it's, you know, she squeezes and it's not so nice, but it's worse for her.

    But all the serious side, I think. I don't have problems with being a little bit like Nicole. There are certain aspects of women that are quite interesting in terms of the how social that they can be. I think I find they are probably far more social than us guys in that sense. And we should have let us look you in the face.

    Well, she did almost break my arm and I thought but I mean, she didn't know what she was doing. And it is difficult there for all three. I still come back as a go back as a male. Disadvantages to both, but on the human side, waked up the ball as a female would have its advantages. And that's about you. Lots of laughs, come on, it's mostly politics across the pond from this. I think I think that's the best time to close off phones.

    I think that's. OK. All right. I just want to set some set frame for this, because this is this is quite a polarizing topic and it has the potential to be disagreements. Talk about an idea in any conflict. I think this is the central issue. So one so we have one person here and one person here, so. That the gas is the conflict when we deal with that, that gap with. Like a fight for power.

    So we're all fighting for, you know, what we want or if we if there's judgment. OK, so if there's judgment, then what happens is we get blamed and sharing, which leads to silence. Whereas I think if we really want to I think the solution is that we have to transcend both of those to find a high level where you don't have the problem. It is like the problem is the gap. Does that make sense? And so the way you resolve it is from.

    Transcending the level, what's really behind all this is conditioning, culture, experience and belief, if we deal with understanding, then we're able to transcend and find a solution. But if we if we struck in A vs. B, then what happens is we start judging and we stop blaming and shaming, which leads to silence. And once you get silence, you're not able to resolve the problem because you are able to understand that that makes sense. If whenever we have differences of opinions, I think it's much better to understand where someone comes from than to like to fight over the opinion.

    So what we're probably going to start from different points of view is because we have different experiences. Men and women have very different experiences and views on this just because of the basis of our different experience. So we're looking to understand each other rather than jobs or blame, Wolf. I think one of the problems that we get. In when you get to like feminism is the fight for. For women, but the problem is if feminism becomes. I blame and a fight against men, then you start, so I think we have to understand what happened so that we're able to because we're in the situation of the whole of history has happened and led us to this point.

    And if we start saying it's your fault and your fault, it's not. No one's fault is like that today. I think it's just an accumulation of what's happened. And everything happens for a reason. So we can understand the reasons. We can then look at understanding what the way forward is. OK, so.

    Yeah, I, I think it is I think it is a fight for women, and I, I can see that. And without that fight, what's happened in the last century wouldn't have happened. So sometimes you have to fight for things, but then you also in order to to build consensus and move forward, I think you have to have understanding. OK, so all that is to set up is nice, I got the sun. So what is the set up is the first topic for Breakout Room is.

    Looking at the issue of double standards. So because really, when we're looking at sex, we're looking at double standards, so the typical one is that if a man speaks to lots of women, he's he's a stud. If a woman sleeps with lots of men, she said she's a slut. So. What we're looking at first is to identify what double standards have you seen or experienced? Does that make sense? That's what we're doing in the break up room.

    Yeah, so we're just looking to identify. So whoever is whoever's name is the first the first name is first in the alphabet is the one who's going to report back with a list. Can I ask a quick example on that?

    If E says the I guess you already like it today. OK, next time will the last in alphabet. Right. So I keep an example though when they ask can I ask an example, because it might not relate. It might be a bit different. It might be just one that's fair in society. OK, are you asking for an example of double standards though? I've got an example of the OK, it might I understand the one you just gave a minute ago about slut shaming by example in life.

    There's a lot of battles that go on where men try to fight to get access to their own children. So I'm not sure why that's a bit it's still it's easier for I'm not calling women there, but it's easier for women to have access to their own children than you flip it. It's a hell of a battle for somebody to get access to their own kids. It is still a bit definitely.

    I think some of what we're going to talk about later is going to cover some of that. But yes, that's a double standard because this isn't just a one way thing, because clearly when we're talking about the issue of sex, it's double standards. So also to say the frame, is this an Oscar Wilde quote, Everything is about sex except sex. Sex is about power. And I think that's an interesting one to think about. So I think for the breakout rooms, we're looking at the moment to identify double standards.

    What have you noticed or experienced? And it can be so from for men. Yeah, it's like when they get the children or often practice like the breakout rooms.

    Right now, Betty, from room one, women, all victims of gossip women have to wear makeup and worry about the image. Women don't have senior positions and professional jobs like computer programmers and women, all sluts.

    And that's not your opinion? No, those are the stereotypes.

    No, I'm just joking. Thank you. Is there anyone else from room one that would like to contribute anything? Before we are taken back, we are talking that's the biggest stereotype has to be when it comes to sex and the best example we can give is the porn industry, whereby women sexual pleasure is not taken into consideration and men are the ones who are given. Bill Cosby, for example. But we didn't conclude on that call. I think one of the bigger points was about some kind of expectation for a parent.

    So whether it be something like makeup is expected all the way to, you know, it's mostly socially unacceptable for women not to shave. But, you know, men can have mustaches and beards. What else to say? I can remember that was last I was the last one. And it just in my mind, other than that, I think there was things like, oh, washing your car, that a man can wash his car in his shorts in the sun, but a woman can't do that.

    And I did ask, why would you want to. They said, no, I think that's about it. Anyone else want to jump in and. Because the domestic violence, that's the part of it and the gift.

    So many gift Pullmans can receive, but look, we received the gift sucks, so it's been a moment when the store supplies the gifts and this to different, you know, so as well that a man can go and sit in a ball, spend an evening nurse and a pint at the bar, whether it's not really considered acceptable for a to lose the talks. But I play golf and those historically women weren't allowed in the clubhouse or the hut to go in through a separate door.

    Okay. Thank you, Agnese.

    Thank you. So first was the salaries. We have a gap between the female and male salaries. So this is a double standard for the same job. It's going better, but as you're showing emotion, if the man show some emotion, everybody is so cute. Finally, and if the government does the same, I do the same. Like, oh, they are just the distance wing or something. So it's not the same or are they. Can it be taken serious because the emotion.

    ,:

    Men like they like cooking and everything is there, realistically, you can get this and this is like a class is still, you know, if you are wearing a pink, it should be a female color. And it's more obvious that this kind of stuff and communication, how we communicate in the relationship sometimes female is we have we have to be. Admiring our path there, because maybe. The item he cleaned the kitchen up there themselves. Oh, thank you.

    Thank you. I think that one. But the other scam is something else. Does anyone else from Renfree want to jump in? Yeah, I think with the communication thing, conflict resolution, as in if a guy does it, he's trying to resolve something, whereas often a woman will be seen in a more negative light or perhaps knocking or, you know, just negative.

    But he does.

    Yeah, I was just making some notes there because I got stuck in the listed apology and the rest of my room, I got stuck in listed and contribute and then realized, oh, I should be taking notes. So I have just been quickly making some notes of some of the matters we discussed. So toward the end of the conversation, which was the freshest statutory part of the people are applying to be engineers, doctors. You know, it's not a 50 50 swing that was an know that the topic didn't get finished, but that's where, you know, we still continue with the conversation.

    It's double standards, as in who brings up children. You know, there's still an expectation there. I'm not sure why it's an expectation, but it's still accepted by all the women, the main carer. You know, there's still an expectation that, you know, if the would work and that they do more than 50 percent of the hours, they do the high percentage of hours of breaking up being the main carer. And it's an expectation, I think, Ali, I couldn't quite catch it all the times when we touched on.

    I did hit me today and shame just trying to think I think we were going down the route, although it wasn't a long discussion about the salaries of occupations and maybe the salaries of politicians, if people a male politician and a female politician. And obviously it happens in some other occupations. But then again, there are some you know, there are female mechanics out there that are female paid to decorator's. This is the norm just on. There's still an expectation with certain occupations.

    And if I turn around and saw a female car mechanic, it's still a bit by surprise. That's not me personally. I've not been sexist. We all can agree these occupations. You'd be bit surprised if, you know, the female is the minority, but I'm sure we can flip it. And, you know, I'm sure there's more female nurses than there is male disease as well. So, yeah, I mean, I think if you went for to get your nails done or makeup, I need to do it.

    OK, I was anything else as we talked before about I can't read whether mentioned in that little spiel.

    I just did that. We talked about it before the break about and the boy I was talking about, to summarize it, I wasn't saying access to children for people who were living together. The way it was feeding on is for couples who have split up. We all know it gets its coverage of an absent father, generally finds it hard work sometimes to get access to his own children.

    But it is also so. So I was a single dad and I had two children. In a way, I'm not looking for a job like I do know when they were very young. I know. Because I was working. I didn't have as much like when the like the bit we bring them up from nine to seven, I was less involved then and I felt like I had less. I felt I didn't have the influence to say yeah, because kind of like stuff is going on and you might not agree with it, but you're out and you come in and then so it's kind of already set in flow.

    And so as a man, I felt like I didn't have as much influence. Over the years, so my baby as quickly ready with the person or dog in a relationship. Baby, you've got to you can't have that. You've either got sometimes you've got to make that sacrifice. And I'm going to be the main breadwinner or all. We're going to be more involved with the children.

    Sometimes you can't both kind of volatility work and unfold. I was bringing up the children. It's got the one or the other.

    Yeah. And I think given that the stereotypes, I think that's one one witness against. So we see these double standards and now we're looking at. Where really? What was the cause of these double standards? And if you look at where the narrative comes from, the narrative came, a lot of it came from religion.

    So it's like what we believe. OK, so I've been looking at one of the programs are well, a program I've watched recently is Vikings. And I find really interesting in the so you've got the contrast of the Vikings and the Christians and the different beliefs in the different gods are show like a different way of life. So. So the Christians are very rigid, like the women Dumphy, the women are sacred and sexy, something to be ashamed of and not spoken about.

    And they're so there they have this very rigid set of rules, whereas the Vikings believe that the gods were sort of like people. And when they fall, they fall the gods. And they they got from feeling that the gods were with them and they felt that they felt that the gods wanted them to to enjoy themselves, and so they had a much more relaxed view of sex because and it came up in one of the interactions and I say like, you know, like I feel so ashamed of I'm fighting against my passions and the Vikings like, why are gods want us to have pleasure?

    Our gods want us to enjoy life.

    So the different idea. That you have, particularly back in times when there was more superstition, when there was sacrifice and things like that and people were more so we've moved into an age which is more secular, so we're more detached from religion and our idea of what we believe. But when we go back in history, people had more had ideas of superstition. They believe that God caused the illness or you've been bad. All of these things were punishments.

    ng that I saw images from the:

    But it's just so. Counterintuitive to see that society, that culture that people with such a long history, with such a liberal attitude and then more recently, a complete reverse. It's it's kind of like let the Nazis completely changed the culture and one of the ways they did that was by changing the religion. In the education statement, I just want to point out, he wrote, The Viking show is not historically accurate. It is a TV show for entertainment.

    If you want to look on YouTube, you'll find lots of information on where it's not it's not accurate, but accepting the point that religion does come into it, um, I don't think you want to take history from, um. From that.

    Yeah, just next time, Rob, if you can be historical. So, yes, I accept because anything on TV is obviously a fictionalization. But my point is that what you believe, whatever religion. So if you look at a British culture. And Muslim culture, a Jewish culture and a Hindu or whatever Taoist culture, they're going to be different because of what they believe. So, OK, so most of us probably have grown up in a Christian.

    Society, that's the one I'm most familiar with, and when you look at it. From my perception, having done research, but when you look at what Jesus talked about, he for me, he talked a lot more about money than about sex. You know, I I've seen some references where people are referring, but it didn't seem to be a big topic and I've had some obviously we don't know, but I've had some accounts that he was quite revolutionary in that he also included females, although.

    That if it is true, it's been edited out so so, yeah, I think Jesus talk some more about money than about sex. But when you look at modern religion. I think it puts a lot more emphasis on sex, the money, so if you look at priests, if you're looking at Catholic, certainly so priest can't have sex. But he can have money and he can drink. OK, so they can drink properly is just like a on the ceremony, but they of course they kind of have sex because it's they.

    They have a committee, they are collecting money for for a church. This is in light of it's not really. Supporting to being married against Protestants and other. Branch of the same Christian believe. So on the surface, historically, it's not accurate if you read what was happening in Monastir and what it was like, nuns and monks were confined and all were having sex even worse than what people just read the history books. Of course, they of course, they have sex.

    It wasn't it wasn't open to everybody in Hungary, in the small villages. Everybody knows who was there. Why the oh, how you call that when a maid is living in with that priest. It wasn't just cleaning and cooking, it was some other services that I did see some research on this and that. Sixty nine percent of priests admitted to some sexual. Some sexual acts and 49 percent time. Come on, apparently I can see the argument that priests need to focus and how can I focus with a family without argument?

    You'd also take away money and take away drink, because I think the argument is that sex leads to lust and lust. So sweep you off your path and turn you away from your path.

    But doesn't gluttony do that, doesn't greed so? Anyway, so. Religion, when you look at it, a lot more talk about sex than money as I read it. So, OK, so the question is. Why so we're going to try to break out for quick discussion of why is religion so obsessed with sex? So before we go, does anyone disagree with the basic premise that religion is obsessed with sex? I just feel that that's going down to religion.

    It'll be a bit of a messy subject for some people. Maybe it's a religion could go on for days and days and hours and hours because you can start to diversify. I don't read books about religion, to be honest. So I can. So we're going to go quick one to five minutes. But for the sake of. If we're looking at what's happened in the past and religion has cracked the narrative. Which is set laws, which is led to the situation where we are now.

    What we're looking at is. Why is sex more important than money or other things? Why is there such a focus so quick? Because this is so we're not looking to attack any beliefs, but we trying to understand everyone's entitled to their belief. If you're religious, then. You're entitled to your belief, but what we're looking at is. My perception definitely is that this is more about sex than about money or anything else in that sense. So why so I'm trying to understand reasons.

    Can you repeat the question, please? OK, so we're looking at so in my perception, anyway, from all the accounts I've seen, Jesus talked a lot more about money than about sex. And from what I see growing up in religion and whatever else, there was more talk about sex than about money. So why why is religion picking on sex? Because I think if you're looking at the problems of the inequalities of the sex of the double standards, I think the origin comes from the narrative which comes from religion.

    We're going to break out everybody. Yeah, just for five minutes. I'm sorry.

    Some things that it's all religions, religion in the sense that it's all religions or to what extent.

    Yeah, because, I mean, I'm not so familiar, but definitely Muslim, Jewish, Christian, which are the same kind of branch. Definitely have. They say, sorry, is this last letter to report back or first letter? Oh, uh, last letter. OK, I tell everyone in your group is already gone. OK, so let me get free rein. This is hard to do backwards.

    So Gina and Gina. We were discussing with them Monday and we figured out that, coincidentally, both of us were raised Roman Catholic. Both of us were raised Roman Catholic and now no longer religious. So the aspect we feel that religion is more obsessed with sex is because of control. It becomes a control aspect by taking away the sex and the desire that humans have, they can be able to manipulate them into what they want them to be. And at the end of the day, we can do as they say.

    And maybe that's the reason why in general there is a bank, but there is also a group of men who are not supposed to have sex and interact with women for a certain time, because the moment they do that, maybe there will be more empowered and be able to think for themselves. That is my reason.

    Our reason and. Sarah, yeah. We will look at it as it's more disciplined. Um, and. I'm trying to think now, yeah, we're more disciplined and going back in the past. Some of the. Some of the religious workers may have sort of. Done things to you and choirboys or whatever, maybe they shouldn't have done, get swept under the carpet and things, um, and nowadays it's not. It's not done so often, but maybe it should be done as a discipline thing, because maybe not shouldn't be so bad in relationships going forward, because it is good to have to have some discipline where you set up the relationship first and not just jump straight into it.

    And because there are so many failed relationships around and that's where things go wrong because you're.

    That sort of drive takes over things. More than what your relationship. And that that sort of bond. Forms first. OK, so so what you're saying is that. Sex, religion is trying to downplay sex so that so that relationships are based on sex and so are based on other have more of a foundation. Yeah, OK. Yeah. OK, thank you for the work at last name, Nicole. I knew you were going to say, man, this is the only time I haven't made notes, so I'm sorry, I'll say I have your word for that and say it like this in the last few weeks, then there's lying to them for what you wish for.

    Basically, I think we were talking about in the last scenario, we're talking about certain religions and we spoke Muslim religion because it seemed to be the most sort of the most extreme thing in this case of the sexual the sexual desire of women in the control of women. And that it sort of seems that. When you look at the burqa, it seems to have been put in place by men to control their desires as such, so it was sort of a question of why can't men follow their desires instead of controlling women and placing them in a position to control that desire for them as such?

    I don't know if anyone else has got anything to add to. I think you've done well to say so you feel it's all about control. But you can equally tie that into the whole slut shaming, slut shaming issue, because then it makes it a curse in a sense, if you stray outside of the norms of modesty as imposed by men. It wasn't your fault, and one, if you if you if you move away from that, that's the point and that's equivalent to a slut.

    So as in a double standard. So. Okay. So. Yeah, so we so we've had the argument is we've had the arguments for relationship, but. I've but that both of those would need for it to be equally applied, whereas we have to double standards in society, that. That's what you said. Because I missed a little bit of what you said. You may know, Sandra, I missed the first look. Oh, I was just equating it to what Nicole had said about the men controlling the women by virtue of imposing burqa and various types that if you stray outside of that norm, then you become the scarlet woman.

    Which is the equivalent of being a slut. Yes. So you've got control in two ways. You have equal control of of stopping access and then you've got control of shame call. I just wanted to get some understanding. I'm not sure if a double standard is the correct term. So if I give you the scenario of a ball we used earlier, meaning that a man could be sat there for a month of Sundays and when a woman would approach him, where a woman on her own of the bar could be sat there for five minutes and she could get approached by a large number of people.

    So when we say double standard, that's supposed to be it works one way or the other. But there is a pretext. There is a societal difference there, meaning that women are inundated with offers, whereas men are sort of seemingly pursuing and therefore don't have that. So can you call that a double standard or is there another term or another? I think I think that's I think when you refining their select for that specific example, I think there is a double standard.

    You know, I would say double standards, although what's interesting is that the research shows that women actually initiate most relationships. They might not make the approach, but they're the one who invites the approach. And Betty, last week was talking about dropping the handkerchief, not old thing, but it's actually when I'm researching bars and things of who gets picked up is the woman that picked the man and initiated. It's the man went over and said, whatever.

    It's the woman who actually initiated it before by the look and by whatever behavior she went when, like coating what happens is the woman's behavior that initiates the man's approach. Usually. Steven, um, should I report back for my group, because that's my job, OK? Yeah, we didn't yeah, we we divert Brannigan's groups, so but yeah, we didn't we didn't have a lot of time and we didn't have as much time as perhaps we could have had.

    But in answer to your question, with regard to Jesus and the fact that he talked a lot about money, the reason he talked a lot about money because he was the anti Roman champion and the Romans were taking money from the because they were in occupation from the Jews and the church was taking money from the people. And Jesus was saying, hey, this is wrong. Money isn't the important thing. It's the people that's important thing and it's the love and all of that.

    So, you know, easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. So he was advocating against money and the love of money and he was advocating for the love of people. And that's what Christians were famous for. And in terms of the roles of women roles, women were well defined, but they were very much in the background. They weren't mentioned at all, as far as we can tell, in in in the Bible.

    It didn't really mention it very much. And that's because people think that, you know, women weren't supposed to say anything and they were kind of pushed to the back and they had their set roles. And those weren't the same roles as the men of that time. I think there needs to be distinction between church and religion, i.e., you know what the people that created the religion said and what men mainly after that came and defined religion to be.

    And when you talk about sex and sex in religion and sex in the church really has been set up with with the idea of control. I know that in the Muslim religion, or at least I believe so, that sex is meant for procreation. So the idea is that and in the same way, perhaps in the Catholic Church. Sex is about getting more people that believe in your religion, so therefore the idea is that you you produce children and that's that's that's the primary requirement for sex.

    So I think that I think that covers what we said just to just clarify, and when you said to distinguish between the church and religion, what how how you define in the church.

    So what's the distinction in your eyes? So if you look at Christianity, which is the primary Western religion, the the religion comes from, as you say, the words of Christ and the Bible. But subsequent to that, the church comes along and puts their own spin on the whole thing. So you've got the Catholic Church and you have the Protestant church and you have different sects. You have different sects within both. And they pick out various bits and pieces of ideology that they want to promote and they set up rules for.

    For how people should behave, which are on top of or even different to what the what the religious origin defined, if that makes sense. So, you know, in in in the Muslim religion, you you're not you're not supposed to be killing people and going off and fighting wars and all that sort of thing. But the church comes along afterwards and and defines jihad and get people to have religious wars. And there've been lots of wars that have been fought in the name of the church rather than in the name of religion or Christian religion says thou shalt not kill.

    But lots of crusades happened involved, a lot of killing. So that's what I define as the difference. It's quite complex, if you see what I mean.

    OK, so. So you like religion, like the Bible in that as in Christianity and in the churches or denominations.

    Yeah. The church makes up its own rules on top of the Bible and picks out those bits that it likes and has done over the. So whereas here we're talking about I mean, because I think the Western society is very much strongly influenced by what has been up to a certain point. And now we're making our own way by Christian values. And in the early church, going back to Roman times, there were a whole set of. So a lot of the books of the Bible come from writings that were discovered from that time.

    And the early church took the choice to go and pick and choose which books it wanted to believe in, which books it didn't. So you had the Gnostics who believed in Mary Magdalene as a as almost a disciple and certainly very close. And it's also believed that she lent money to the disciples to keep funding them because she was a widow and she had she had money from that source. But the church decided to write that whole thing out and to make her into a prostitute, which the Bible doesn't say at all.

    It doesn't say that at all. What the church the church made that distinction so that she could be the fallen woman that was saved. But that's not written. So that's something the church is defined and has fallen into cultural norm. But isn't what the religion said that makes sense. Okay. Thank you, Carl. I just feel a bit let down since I came here for sex, sluts and sin, and instead I got Jesus and it's OK coming good and sweet and also rhymes.

    And I'm thinking of your Swedish pop.

    That is in no way that is. But that's that you really like the then goes. Yeah, because people always want to go there. But I think I was referring Dennis' clubs so how is it.

    I don't know what. Scandinavian. OK, all right, so I just want to share some of our ideas to put it in context, and then we'll open it up and you can talk about the local articles, topics on. OK, um. So what we're talking about really is the gap, what we've got, I think a male female is we've got females, males, and then we've got the gap. And so what we've got in there is conflict between because any one person has a view like even within a relationship, you've got two people with different views and.

    Conflict is because each one has their own view, perspective. When you have a when it's like when there's conflict. That is a battle and it's a battle for who's right, who's who's who gets their way. And so when you look at the last week, we looked at resources. So when you look at resources. Of male and female. Who has the money? I think we can agree it's Manea. Some men have money, both got volleyball, bales got more.

    Yeah, I mean I mean, historically, I'm looking at a historical view of where these conflicts originated. So when you look at knowledge, so knowledge is another resource and that men have the power of that. And when you look at relationships, women were mostly restricted to outside, so they didn't have relationships of power. So, yeah, they may have had relationships with the other wives, but none of them had power. So they they weren't the one who decided.

    Things. And when you look at political, economic and economic power. It was with men. And so when you look at who writes the narrative, it's the man. And when you look at if you're going to use force, which ultimately every physical interaction, that's like the threat, the final threat. So all of these are weighted towards an end. So what does a woman have? I think I think you need to be careful with that, because in a lot of societies and religions and certainly in Catholic religion, the money goes to the woman so that all the money goes for housekeeping.

    And the the woman is responsible for maintaining the household. So the man might earn the money, but the actual money goes to the woman and that can still happen in Western society. I know I knew a guy that ended up with two pound sixty a week to spend because that was their budget and that's all that was left over for him to have his pocket money. So it it doesn't necessarily follow. So women have power within within the family and they they did have they can have that role.

    But what what women do have is they have the they have sexual power and they have boys. Don't forget the lady who is going to be a Big Apple. I think yeah, I think women have sex and women have the ability, Schyman. So so when so if we're looking back so there's a couple of statistics I saw when I was thinking about this, so I know women didn't. So when you say that women had the control of the money they may have done, it was with the men's agreement, but women weren't allowed to have their own money until the 20th century.

    So in like in France,:

    And was that sorry, nineteen ninety one. I think he's nice. He was definitely nineteen nineties, so. So I think so, yeah, women, women may. Have had influence within the household. But they had given it by the man, so they may have controlled the money, so if you look at now, women control most buying decisions. But that's with the man's consent. Well, that's like the agreement. But men are the ones you've always had to control.

    So I think when you're looking at power. Society wide. We're looking at most of it comes from men, and so I think women have the power and the ability. Like from sex and your ability to you may I mean, so, you know, OK, you were you are right. The female or woman didn't have money, but the widows, they could in their own societies as well. So if they kill the husband, they were happy.

    The other aspect is that women bring up the children. Yeah. So they have a lot of influence. So children are massively influenced by the parents and the and the mother is the one that spent the most time keeping the values and and bringing up the children because the man is at work. That's true. Which is where twelve point comes in. Even today, women have more rights. And and you like it when it goes to if it goes to a divorce or whatever settlement, it tends to go in favor of the war.

    Definitely in child custody. So. Now opening up to two more on the subject that was promised. OK, so what? OK, so we've set some framework for my ideas of where I think this originated from. So what are the big issues and the whole topic of. Sex double standards. Well, a woman gets to choose, she has absolute choice, whereas a man has to almost be subjugated in a sense, not literally, but it's it's always the woman's choice.

    Maybe that's to do with our law system. But fundamentally, that that if you did just illustrate that with a nice big picture, I probably don't need to reiterate it. But that is the first thing that tons of choice you can weigh whether to have sex or not. There's no like if you you know, if if there was two people discussing the man doesn't get the final ultimate say, sure, that's is that thing is not. Would you say would you say cow, though?

    I think somebody said, well, outside of this. Whereas was but will say or maybe. Done the reverse. If a man was offered sex, basically the mob was offered sex with women, you might say yes to a taboo as a woman might say yes to to it. That's my description. That's understood.

    We're very sensual creatures.

    That's because your brains are in your desecrations for maybe more. But they're both women. They do think sometimes with the nether regions, which is driven very differently.

    I think men and women are just driven very differently. But I think women, it's more of an emotional thing for men. It's just it's more of a physical thing. And I think that if men can just turn turn it on like that, and I don't think women can bend the rules like women.

    It's also important for Julie beg to differ with this also. I beg to differ from the boss of the current situation. Let's look at the current generation of, as most of us are thinking, as the older generation instead of late. What labor unions are coming up, polyandry for the elderly, polygamous. Why? Because men and women are equally having sex and they are up in the younger generation and not shaming each other. But as older generation, we are still stereotyping ourselves and saying that if a woman has sex with two men, she's a not.

    Or that women are not able to just be carnal about the whole thing and just give in to desires. I don't agree with that. I think that we are just maybe our second brain, as I call it, is not as visible, but it is the type of environmental law that we are currently just like men.

    It's just that we have a little bit more self-control. I think.

    I think that's not just you just think about it. But that said the man that more willingly accepting. Over for sex, the man probably doesn't need to they don't need to worry about being killed during the sex because, you know, he's like or or abused or any other. Way to come up, can I agree with Agnes at the end of the day? I think I kind of agree with Sandra that women are just as carnal. But then to the day, we also have to think about our safety.

    I agree.

    I agree wholeheartedly. And that that to me is the thus the self-control that I was talking about. We have a lot of things to think about before we actually act. But fundamentally, I don't think that we can't be as turned on as men. But we have to look at the practicalities of our safety, etc., and those other things and those barriers we go through first before we we decide, OK, let's go for it. Yes, I agree.

    Maybe when I say something, please. Sorry, sorry. I was outside and the connection was unstable, so I didn't speak. But I think actually religion has got this right. The concept is correct. The message is not necessarily because money is the physical and sex should be spiritual because sex is about two people, two cells merging into one sex. But the sex is evolving, so sex is more important.

    Then money in the spiritual sense and the. Really just I mean, really, religion is more or less about spirituality, so they've got a concept to correct and also think about if people do not control their sexual. Desires, they let it roam free, it's the families will become destabilized and that's very detrimental to rearing children. I think that's a little bit extreme and I think there's a level of appropriations, so, for example, in the modern world, people who are say eighteen to twenty seven, why not go out and have fun, enjoy yourself, have experiences, go to clubs, bars, party and, you know, actually get experience.

    But then maybe you might have a point that when a woman, her biological clock is running down, that there's a possibility that, you know, when she's still clubbing at thirty eight, thirty nine, there might be a destabilisation of society and families and women. But I think it's just time appropriate. And you do find that people will start to settle or find a more meaningful way or different, not less meaningful, but a different way of life around twenty seven or so.

    Perhaps that's why most religious or spiritual people are people older. Who are older and after they have explored material pursuits and pleasure seeking activities such as promiscuous cruelty, and then they haven't found meaning, so they turn to.

    And they realize that Cudmore. About the there is more to the life, to life than just those pursuits, but it's fun.

    It's awesome. Loud music or having sex is great. And yeah, once you do get to about 40, you'll be the oldest swinger in town and you'll probably look a bit weird if you're still doing it. But if you're still having fun, why does it matter? But that sounds to me so stifling. Like I think Danny just wrote some in context, which I'm echoing, which is people should be able to enjoy themselves and have fun without the sense of fear or stigmatization.

    And, you know, partying is good or me.

    I have never been laughed or loved someone genuinely, because if you have them having sex with other people in pubs or bars with random people definitely isn't all that fun. You cannot have sustainable satisfaction from that kind of activities.

    And you can have people, people who have a purpose in life to not have such a strong desire to done lots of climbing. Yes, I know we we all have different opinions. So when we saying should that saying that everyone should believe, as I believe and what we we're talking about is two points of conflict. And so it's about understanding each other. But if we're making judgments of what's right and wrong, we're imposing our beliefs on someone else.

    So everyone's entitled to their beliefs and everyone comes to their beliefs from their experiences, their culture, the conditioning, all the experiences they've had in life, make them believe what they believe and maybe what you believe is better and maybe it's not. But we don't have the right to impose on anyone else. So we can't say that everyone should do what we do because otherwise we're becoming a dictator.

    OK, I apologize if I said should you be more careful with that with the children's. I'm I'm just explaining because before you go down that path that you're entitled to believe what you want and so is everyone else. Yes. So you can say that you advocate and you believe that's that's a higher purpose, but you can't tell anyone else they're wrong for having a different opinion. Yes. I apologize for having used to shoot. I don't remember what I said, but I should be more careful with the words I use.

    Speaking from experience, I have only found purpose recently in the past few years, while before I was leaving a promise promise your life.

    But I found a losing interest in people quickly and novelty drove me so I could I have I could desire beat new people. But after a while I just lost interest in them. And that at the time probably I thought it was fun because I had I didn't have anything better to do. But now, looking back for me, it wasn't fun.

    It was quite empty from my own experience and judgment applied. Can I just interject?

    I think we need to be careful of how we use the terms there.

    There is sex and there is love, love in relationship. And we are conflating the two in some in some respects. And I think we are getting into some difficulties by combining the interpretation of what we mean.

    By enjoying sex and having and being able to look at sex from the viewpoint of males and females as equal partners and the whole notion of sex being spiritual, all every sexual experience is not necessarily a spiritual one.

    We have sex for different reasons. And we equally we can equally enjoy all of those or most of them.

    So I think we need to be open as to how we that what all of us you know, it might be good for everybody, but there are overlaps. And I think we can have some common common ground to discuss the subject. Yes, we'll have a different path. But my previous sorry, my promise before I was talking about your relationships, that after a few months I just lost the interest in. You, man, look, I got to know them.

    OK, so, Stephen, if I didn't genuinely love them. Oh, OK, well, thank you for sharing, say, Stephen and Tal Redwater to jump in. Yeah, what I what I would say is that when we were talking about slut shaming, I think of that as very old fashioned historical. And these days anything goes. But what I would say is that culturally. Because I'm, you know, being being older, I remember the 70s and attitudes were different, so attitudes towards me and those and that's a good reason and that was to do with birth control and reliability of birth control.

    So parents didn't expect their children to go out and just do whatever because they didn't want an unexpected pregnancy without outside of marriage. They didn't want to have to pay for them, bring up their grandchildren in the same house as their daughter so that that aspect was there. And the other aspect was that perhaps guys and women expected to have a. And a single singular relationship, so the man was maybe getting a virgin or someone with less experience because there would be and was maybe a lot of difficulty around sex.

    And, you know, you basically had two inexperienced people that were getting married and that was kind of what was expected. And that's going back to the seventies when birth control wasn't as reliable. And since then, we've had a sexual revolution. But I think that some of the cultural and expectations have carried over from that time. And the you know, as we've said, we've got mixed up ideas of what's OK and what's not, which is perhaps what we're we're experiencing a little bit and that.

    And that the changes that we've made of having quite marked differences in society and that's evolving. So with promiscuity, you do get you do get problems and that we do have a higher number of unwanted pregnancies. We do have children, if you like, 14 year olds having sex. We do have we do have children that are put into care and aren't being taken on because we're not building in the same way or at the same time. The family units and family units have kind of broken down to some extent, which is why house prices have gone up, because there are a lot more single people.

    So 20 percent of families are now single parent families, which is quite big differences in in terms of culture. And it also means that as people get older, there's a lot of older people that are on their own and actually a higher number than 20 percent. It's more like 50 to 60 percent of elderly people are on their own and that result in loneliness in an older age. So I think there's other cultural differences as well in that if sex is just something for pleasure, the partnership you might choose are going to be those that you you fancy, those that are good looking or those that can show you a good time and spend the money on you.

    And so what that means is that when people do come to settle down, they have they have that value set when they're looking for a partner. So whereas in the past you might be looking for somebody that was stable, was going to give you a solid family and you were going to build that family together when you were young, people are now moving towards that in later life when they're in their 30s. And that means, unfortunately, some people, because they then only have 10 years to sort of get it together, don't actually manage that.

    So you do have a high proportion, a higher proportion of women who don't actually have a child because of whatever reason. But so whereas it was expected that people were going to get married and have children, that's not always the case.

    And that means you just look at this for a second, because we did bring up religion earlier. So when people are let's just say in the marriage context, there's actually statistically a high number of women who would report that they never had orgasms, that sex was a functional service as part of being in that marriage bracket. And that makes unhappy people, unhappy individuals and therefore a larger, unhappier society. So why should people be in unfulfilling situations just to come under the bracket of marriage?

    And although it has some plus points for society and for individuals, the biggest thing that we should be looking for, and this is why we're all here, is to be happy in relationships because having a shit sex life really sucks or it doesn't, but it's terrible. Nobody wants that. So moving forward, I can say that as a slut, I can say that having had sexual experiences has allowed me to see that with some women. It's like it's like a lukewarm tea.

    You can just sip it and it's fine. Other ones like piping hot coffee and you're like, no, forget I said that. But so there's a difference. There is so much more to this than just I do. And the vows and the commitment and the deeper stuff. If you could have both, I think people would be happier rather than just model. I think what we've got here is there's a clear to two points of view, so there's one.

    What's good for society and is what's good for people. So. And really. What does that mean? What's good for society? OK, so I think what Stephen gave us was an argument of the case for political action and for correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea that it's good for society, if people are in a marriage and all that kind of thing, and then Carl spoke for individual happiness, I correct me if I'm wrong.

    I was giving you information, not judgment. I wasn't advocating anything. I wasn't I wasn't advocating marriage. What I was saying is that our culture and our society have changed and that has had some negative effects for both individuals and for society. So when you talk about society, the birth rate in this country is now one point eight. So whereas when I was growing up, it was two point four. That was the average. And that's what they do quote for cause, which meant that the the the number of people in this country was staying the same because some people wouldn't get married.

    I wouldn't have that point. And that point forward was what made that difference.

    You've now got one point eight, which means that the population is decreasing, which is in the world in a world where we've got overpopulation is not a good thing, isn't it? Isn't the the the problem with our society or our country, if you like, with the decreasing population, is that the population is aging more because of health care. And that means that you don't have enough young people to support the old people because the old people aren't working.

    And therefore, we've had to bring in people from abroad in order to provide care for all the people, which is where we have Brexit and we have social disturbance due to due to different cultures being spread into our country and our existing culture. So it has stirred things up. It's not all a good thing. I agree with you. In the end, if there was less people, that would be a good thing. But if you look at Japan, they really, really do have a problem with the number of children because people just aren't getting together and they're not having kids.

    But that's beside the point, Stephen. If you're not enjoying it, then you will get together and we need to enjoy it so that we can get together. The choice is whether when we get together, we decide to procreate or just do it for fun, but at least we are getting together. So the other part of the equation could possibly give rise to some offspring. But if we are not enjoying it, we are going to do it.

    That's the point. That's the fundamental issue.

    I think that that's the I think the other thing is you the woman has a choice. Now, it would be nice to give a birth we don't farm. And just the 30 or 40 years ago, that was the that was the occupation of the woman that I like this because I think I'm going to read you guys reactions. From what I said earlier, I wasn't applying any judgment. I wasn't because I actually do not believe that we have free will.

    So I, I don't shame I don't judge anyone.

    But I have a curious question to ask the guys in this group if they want to answer either anonymously or or or not, how many times a day can you go where expected that so is why is this a weekday or a week of Sunday morning?

    Even then, the woman will know or can you go whenever the woman wants?

    OK, ok. Well I'll leave that open for. I'd say yes, OK. Nobody else. Well, sorry, how many times? Probably about 17, including toilet breaks.

    OK, just so you know, the interview. OK, you need to break out room. Well, I'd like to share my sex life. Well, I think now and I know a few weeks ago I talk about my relationship, the problem. We are back together now. And actually, I have realized that I have learned a new word could print a new phrase, twin flame and. I've had I've been having the most satisfying sex I have ever had with my current boyfriend.

    Because we're in flames and to talk about money and sex, I don't care about money. To me, I'm willing to share whatever with. My boyfriend and I know him to handle all the finances and what I have is actually a bit substantial according to many people's opinions, but what I do care is my boyfriend's faithfulness. So if he has sex. With anyone else or even one, if he wants to have sex with anyone else, then it's out because once the trust is broken, then.

    It's definitely no longer the prostitutes, very sacred, and then the relationship definitely is broken. OK, and there's there's something else I want to to to talk about referring back to the beginning, I said Oscar Wilde quote, which is that everything is about sex except sex and sex is about power. And so one of the things that I wanted to ask was often so we talked about the that it's men that are most keen for sex, most open to sex, the child sex.

    Most yet many women will be in a relationship. And. We'll be in a relationship and one with a man that doesn't want to have sex. So how does that equate to men always been up for it? So what's the question? I don't want to have sex with the woman his friendship with. Yeah, that's probably because the man is not feeling genuinely loved and he's on a survival mode if he's loved. Probably he can go 10 times a day whenever the woman wants.

    OK, OK, so again, there are many women that that's not their experience and Nicole. I'll come back to my place. It was about something, Tony. OK. I have a question. How long do you think couples or potentially couples should wait before having sex? There's a guy chat show host. What's his name? Steve Harvey then. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he wrote this was a load of crap. Sorry about the language, ok.

    Yeah.

    I read about when the people decide if you want to have sex the first hour you to deposit. As long as the situation is safe, that's up to you. If you want to wait for 90 days, that's up to you. We we don't have to have a different type of where people should have sex. We need to stop limiting interactions about it when it comes to individual happiness. And like we all came from, we said all this stemmed from religion.

    And I feel that it's about time that we start accepting that I am an individual, and as long as I'm not physically or emotionally hurting another human being, I'm entitled to do what is happy for me. Long live Boris Becker and the cupboard, OK, actually once asked to have sex, that's why he said a man should leave his parents and cleave onto his wife under two shall be become one. But different religions have different interpretations to my I believe in God, not a religion.

    My understanding is God wants us to have pleasure with our partner. And I give you another example why I'm not shaming every anyone because I had sex with my boyfriend on the first date.

    Yeah, but how do you feel about that? God was watching you? Well, that was happening.

    Oh, God. I think God wanted me to have sex with him because I'm naturally impulsive and I like instant gratification. I don't think it would have mattered if we waited. We just have delayed avoidable anyways. Well, not doing anything against my conscience, so well put it this way, I'm a I consider myself quite rebellious against a lot of institutions and norms and social norms. But what I have come to learn in myself is that even if it's not sex, anything you do that has a level of vulnerability or openness.

    The after effects of that can leave you trigger a bull or more sensitive in some ways. So by getting that deep with sex, although some say it can just be fun and jump with somebody that you connect with, and there's a vibe if you open up too quickly, even about like your past or your hurt or your pain, that can leave you just as vulnerable as jumping in the sack too quickly. I mean, this is my theory. I don't know if it's solid, but I do feel that given some time.

    The real truth of it for me is that you will bond on your friendship, your conversations, rather than lust, emotion, passion, all of which, like a fire, will burn out but will fade out. But actually connecting with somebody like in their mind, enjoying the sense of humor, enjoying the time being in their company and liking them for who they are. I don't think that Burns thought we have friends for life that we've known for years.

    So that's my theory anyway.

    I think you should just go inside the gym and you have a friend who has been married for the past 15 years and she had sex with a boyfriend within the first two hours of meeting. So people are different. We are individuals and we're not the individuals some people want. Exactly. Some people can be like this and some people can be either. Your experience is not my experience.

    I didn't say it was. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just saying that. But now you said that. You know what makes me realize that I'm doing this as a protection mechanism. Nothing else. Yeah, I think I think there's too like there's two extremes. There's like sleeping with everyone and sex does matter and sex is just this. And then there's the extreme of you must do this and you must like how you like, however long or not even have sex until marriage.

    And the key is that one is someone telling you what to do and one is you acting on your instincts that may lead you astray. And there is a danger in sex in being that the lust can become damaging. So I think it is true. What you said is that you need to know what the sex is about and if it's done from an emotionally sound place. So sex can be damaging because people can you, like a lot of people off their breakup, will go on a sex party.

    And it's because they're using sex as a distraction and sex can be used for validation. Sex can be used for attention, sex can be used for comfort, can be used as a tool. So whenever it's used in any of those. Wise, then it becomes impure, and so it's really the key is that am what I was trying to get at with, like why why is it that men are in a long relationship, won't have sex with a woman, but they're watching porn.

    And I think what it's about is that sex isn't about the physical act is because it's become and I think one of the reasons why men want to have sex so readily is it becomes about conquering and because the conquering is not about sex, but it's about, look at me, I'm attractive, look at me. I can when I can seduce. And so sex can be damaging. It can be addictive when it's not used. With an emotionally sound basis.

    So. I think it doesn't matter. I don't think anyone has the right personally, this is, again, my view, but I don't think people have the right to impose on you an equally we don't want to use it as a distraction or as. Yeah, exactly. It's the same as credit cards, alcohol. And what I'm saying is that it's no different. And they shouldn't be like that, there's a level of shame in someone who's promiscuous and sleeping around that there isn't about someone who's maybe eating too much, but it's exactly the same thing.

    It's that we using something as a distraction, using something else as a tool. And so I think it's about. No, I think like all of the religions, I think they have a point in the fact that gluttony, greed, all of these things can lead us astray. Sex can can if if if we don't use it intelligently. But I think the point the fight we made was that eventually if if you have sex without just just for the fun, just for whatever, eventually that loses its appeal.

    And I think a great there's two books on this, and I think the second book is the one that really answers it, but Neil Strauss talked about the game where he learned how to pick up women, where he could have any woman you want. Well, basically, he can have his choice of women. And then the truth is where he found that unfulfilling and it led to addiction and all of these kind of issues. So this is kind of one of those things that it's about managing and not letting the dominant you, but not being afraid of it or being ashamed of it or whatever.

    The senator was about to ask, is that what is sex? What does sex mean to you as an individual? Forget about the partnering with somebody else to have sex. But what is sex? To an individual and then what is it to you and what what does it do for you? Why do you need to have it as a person, as an individual? Are you in a relationship with someone who does not see sex the same way you do, does not view it the same way, does not have the same sex drive as you, then those become questions that you ask within the relationship.

    But I think as individuals, we have to understand what sex means to us first and foremost. And then on that basis, we can then look at a sexual relationship that we have with someone in our partnership and understand whether or not it is fulfilling what our expectations of a good sex life is for us or me.

    Sex cell connection, which wasn't the case in my previous relationships.

    And of course, I'm just going to throw out just to answer that question, because I think it's just really significant points. So. Is it like if there are different types of sex, so what is when you think about what does that mean to you? So I think it can just be meaningless or it can be meaningful. So. Doesn't doesn't always mean the same thing to everyone or is it?

    No, of course not. Sometimes it's just you need to release your sense. And the fact is good for that, sometimes just playful, sometimes it's just a good romp. Yeah, I was just thinking of a story. I instantly regret sharing this now, but I remember when I was 16, we used to go to this club and these two girls come round and one pointed to a friend and she said she likes you, OK? Now, unbeknown to me, half the town of Bangerter like a Salvation Army drum.

    But we used to have house parties afterwards and she came back and she'd stay over, but she wouldn't sleep with me. I mean, she did eventually. But and that goes to show that, like what Sandra was saying, that she was obviously having a funny for us, but she actually didn't like me, therefore abstained from it some more. So, yeah, like Rob was saying, the value placed appropriately in different context. Now, ask a question to the guys here, if you when you want to have sex and your partner doesn't.

    How do you feel? It just depends what reason they give. Maybe it's the truth. Can you elaborate on the reasons she could be tired or is she really telling the truth? She could be too drunk. She could be considering what she's up to the next day. So thinking, well, no, I don't want to bet it's two o'clock in the morning. I just want to go to sleep.

    So I have a headache.

    Yeah. Is that the truth? Yeah, that's why I said that. Is it the truth? Stress is paid off, is she actually annoyed? Yeah, she's using sex as a weapon, say avoided it because I'm just going to be stopped with. Is simply not in the mood. Sex is a weapon, the love gun. Well, do you feel disappointed or hurt? I think it depends on what you what what you see there is this if you feel like it, it reflects on you, then someone's going to be disappointed in her.

    So I think he's individual. I think a lot of people I see a lot of people will ask questions like this is if it's the same for everyone that everything is all of life is individual. We experience it individually. So I don't think there's any one answer, and I think the best answer is if you ask the person. OK, how do you tell whether the reason was. About you or. Huh? I think that's one of the words she used or about your own perception?

    Well, I think everyone makes their own perception, and that's where a lot of problems come, because our perception isn't always reality. I think there's a difference between sex and intimacy that makes sense, so you might not be in the mood to to have intercourse, but you can still be intimate and still, you know, have a cuddle or whatever, if that makes sense. But if the intimacy is completely withdrawn, then that's a different story.

    If somebody is just giving a cold shoulder, then no, sorry, I cannot just lie there and have a cuddle. I know.

    Why not? Can I ask another question? Um, two guys do generally. Jan, get. Enough sex in your relationships is one of the key arguments is money and sex, and it's about how much sorry you say something, Sarah. So, yeah, it's different for everyone, isn't it? I mean, everyone's got a different sex drive and it just depends on the person and how much they do during the day and how much they. Well, yeah, how much they want it basically.

    OK, if you are getting enough in your relationship. Hands up. If not, don't say anything. Hands down. So nobody's getting enough. I haven't gotten a pandemic at the minute.

    All you all many of us would be, you know, four years even though zero zero zero zero zero.

    You how long? Well, I think one of the things these people always ask and you can look up there are surveys of averages, but average. But averages are there's always in any statistics, there's averages and it's random. And I don't think these are questions that you can get the correct answers to.

    But the question about sex has to also deal with the issue of self-love, i.e. things like masturbation and cybersex and various forms of self-love and other kinds of love for want of a better word. What about phone sex or video sex?

    That's the one. Virtual sex. Yeah.

    OK, well, I had to phone sex with my boyfriend before we met all those guys that made it easier for us to have sex on the first date. That was my only and the first phone sex ever in my life. OK, so, Sandra, did you have a more specific question or areata?

    Oh, no, I was just throwing it out to say. Yeah, yeah, just just just throwing it out because we're talking about sex, but sex with respect, the relationship of some kind. To a one night stand or whatever it is with another. And that was just broadening. That's. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's kind of the point. I for one of the points I was making about. Women watch porn masturbate rather than being smart.

    I just want to add on that, actually this is quite a not very nice term, but there's a term and it's called being a pillow princess, meaning that your partner is not sexually engaging back or even in any sort of intimate way. And I know that I was in a relationship whereby I would rather go have a shower than like go through the whole process and the energy of everything. And that was a sad state of affairs. But that's kind of where it got to after a number of years.

    So can I ask a question to to people who they both sex here? What is more and more satisfying? Sex with man or woman? Well, I'll leave the question open, but I think, again, it's individual, but if anyone wants to common place to do and Curis.

    I think it varies quite considerably and it just depends on the person. It is always just the person who you sex. It doesn't matter. And I think it's you know, it's a different experience. You can compare really the two things. This is a really different version of the same. So can I ask what woman can do that? A man can't. Before you try it and say good answer, yes, what was the answer? I missed it.

    Try and see it.

    Explore someone territory for me, like I was about to say.

    At the end of the day, I feel it's more about sexual compatibility. You can have sex as a woman with another woman and have the best experience. But I can also have sex with another man and have the best experience and have sex with another woman and have the worst experience. So the question is, how much compatible are we? We all think that she like what I like. Does he like what I like? So it's individual. We can't just generalize and say or I prefer this or I prefer that.

    It also depends on if you meet if you if you're having sex with somebody who is so engrossed in the performance and that person is performing and they are taking their own boxes, they don't care about your boxes. And when they are finished to their satisfaction, that's that's it for them. It's not about meeting halfway.

    It's not about a communion of of of two people. And then you have those who are so concerned about their performance, you know, the ones who would ask you how was it for you? Was I good enough that blah, blah, blah, don't even bother me? Did you did you whatever.

    You know, the right survey is like you need to take a. That was really good. Five or.

    No, no, no, no, that's not it. If you find somebody who is actually open and is willing to give of themselves and allow you to be yourself, I think that would be. Good sex, that's what a good point sometimes, especially if you're thinking about mistress, you know, it's just you don't speak. It's the person next to, you know, what you want. Why do you want to know the end of the movie?

    If actually do not enjoy, so does the best one when you actually don't need to speak and you'll get mail more or less as the experience just experienced the important, not what you get. Actually, I've been saying this for years. I wish women would just not speak and it would make everything better. Not really. I didn't mean that. I can ask, do men fake orgasms?

    You think they can. If you yes, I believe they can, because it depends on the person they are with, if they don't feel that they don't feel the man, they'll just fix it so that they come out of there. And going back to Rob's question, why do men watch porn when they have a woman is because of a fantasy. They are created that their partner cannot fulfill it and they feel that Stackpole and be able to provide that euphoria experience.

    I read that in a survey the other day.

    I think I think that's true. And I also think. The other part of it is so, yeah, it's like the fancy and also like when you bring in chili is coming in the check, it's about. So it's about the fancy and it's also about the fear of not being able to match, to live up to it in reality. And so. It's about like in order, so like if a man is not interested and not interested in satisfying his partner, it really shows you something about the person.

    And it is a shortcut to how they're going to treat you in a relationship because it shows a level of selfishness. And so to really, really be satisfying for sex, to really be satisfying is really about then like at a level where you have a connection and all of all of that stuff, that's about a level of intimacy and vulnerability and all that has to be involved in it. And so often it's just easier not to show up, not to have to live up.

    It can be challenging and confronting. And so some people can just not be willing to to give that much of themselves. Nicole. You're right, that is know when one partner goes masturbates, it's kind of because there's something sort of missing or have you in a hot fantasy. What do you think? It's I don't know. I kind of feel it's healthy within a relationship for both partners to be able to masturbate and enjoy themselves as well. And I've had this in a previous relationship with a male partner, I happen to mention, that had been there.

    And for me, it was quite I don't know, I enjoyed the fact that it was coming to talk to me about it and that shocked him considerably. And I want to say, you know, I just want to explore that with him. And that was really that sort of took him back away, because if that was out of the ordinary, I just think it's healthy. It's just that simple. Just you want to be selfish because if you have a sex.

    You need to think about your partner normally, but if you just masturbate, it is just you. It's about you and your pleasure and you don't need to share with anybody and you don't need to worry about the other person is having a good time or a bad time or who cares because it is just about you and. Right. Of course you can you can masturbate in a relationship as it is just you you know, it is their own time.

    It's a bit different as well, isn't it? Do you not think having sex with someone and masturbating, obviously, you know, you get to feel but still a little bit different as well? It is.

    I think the problem comes, though. The problem that I was talking about, just to be clear, is about a man who wouldn't have sex with a partner. No, as in like they were just having a one off, but there's like no, no, that was taken out of context and that's really what I'm talking about. Again, I think it's not about what you do. It's about really within the bigger context. So, like, if it's an avoidance, it becomes unhealthy.

    So I'm not sure who's next humans jumping. We're just going to say that we are forgetting about men's feelings and sometimes men are conscious of an issue that they don't want to discuss and they feel very conscious about it. And that can contribute to them not wanting to have sex that that, you know, for that for a period. And so sometimes it's not just that they don't want to have sex, but something is an issue that is and they're very conscious about it.

    They don't want to feel embarrassed about discussing it. And so they they they hide. They hide from sex. There is a lot more pressure on men in sex. You have to. So basically, most of the times the men might get the performance pressure, you know, especially from the work. Especially from the bedroom as well, because sometimes it's coming down that stigma to be all men have to provide if it's sex not good, the men's fault, all of them come and go, but hold the standard and be putting pressure on them to be, you know, good at work, good at home, good attitude and good everywhere.

    And they feel sometimes that pressure will dig tunnel to the explosive dug out. Could be. That's one of the issues, a Sunday to see just what is bothering them something, but they don't even know what could be. And ask another question, just goes hand up and then your next fight.

    I was just going to say I don't mind sharing a personal experience. And it really a light bulb just went off for me a moment because I realized that in my last serious relationship when we were first together, it was extremely animalistic and it was incredible and all of that. But by the time at the end, it had become once a week more like like 15, 20 minutes at best. And all of that was actually based upon how happy we were together.

    And we were we were functional to some degree. So what I'm trying to say is that actually I think good sex does depend on the happiness and the connection that you have with some for me anyway. So I really deeper experience. So you have to have a good relationship. I mean, you can just have the stuff with life and not really. And there is that. But for something that's deeper than. And in answer to your question, Robi, I've just Googled up and I think with all of these subjects, it's not simple.

    None of it ever is. But some some of the ideas there are low testosterone, no attraction. So you've lost interest, performance anxiety, self sufficiency, boredom, affairs. But I think that in a relationship, in a loving relationship, there are emotional issues and psychology comes in there quite a lot.

    And that so you can make yourself vulnerable, but that vulnerability can be walked over, whether deliberately or not. And also, psychology can have historical reasons. So it's not necessarily what's happened in that relationship. It's something that's happened previously. And you can get hung up on stuff without even knowing why. There isn't an obvious reason. And it's not about sort of saying, well, why is this like this? It's more about how do you sort of chill out and kind of take time out and give yourself a chance to kind of get through that, if that makes sense, rather than because I think I've never experienced it.

    But I know that a lot of guys have problems with, um, what's the word, impotency. That's maybe not the right word, because I think that's a permanent thing. But you know what I mean. You can't perform. You just can't do it or whatever. And it's not a simple question. You know, there's a lot it's a psychological thing. It's an emotional thing, maybe. But there may be lots of reasons. And if it happens to people, then I think the worst thing that can happen is if there's additional pressure put on that.

    And it's like, well, why is it like that? And, you know, and start questioning it. I think my my perception is it's best to sort of stop thinking about things and give yourself a chance to focus and kind of kind of balance. That makes sense. I think I think emotions and life are about balance and sometimes things are out of balance without, you know, why. And sometimes you just need to find the balance. It could be stressful job.

    It could be all sorts of different things.

    I think that's true. And I think the way of and that's why one of the issues when we talk about the weight of what we put on sex makes all of that worse, because it's like if you if you can't perform, you're not a man. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of things, Janosz, I realize I've been saying your name well, but yeah, basically, I just want to add it for Steve and what he will say.

    It's very true. And the recent research which came out, it's actually saying over 90 percent of the men I struggle with that I never did never really speak about them, never really able to open about this stuff. They never really realized it's actually happening with them. Yeah, I know talk to talking to people that there seems to be quite a significant issue, folks who say like men of my age, what's your age? I'm 49. OK. So you've got a few years yet, probably, yes.

    Well, I think I think there's people who have heart conditions, people have diabetes, but like Stephen said, there's lots of lots of causes. Is it also some of the quickest? I think in my experience, be fair to say, it also depends on the person you're with. Sometimes it can be great. And then other times you might have. Well, I say I mean me. Yeah. That in people where there just hasn't been that really good chemistry and energy, it has been a poor performance.

    But then maybe a week later, it's not an issue with somebody else where it's flown. So. But also, I think the yardsticks that men use to judge their performance don't necessarily coincide with the woman's evaluation of set performance and sometimes men are just a little bit too harsh on themselves. And so I think communication in that regard is really key because I think getting the response from your partner can also alleviate a lot of the tension and the stress that you're feeling about how you are performing and what you're doing.

    You may realize that all these things, these doubts that you have in your head really are not that important in the scheme of things. It's all about the pressure that you think that this is how you're supposed to perform. I know this is anecdotal and this is coming from a phenomenon that's happening in Jamaica and the school system where these teenage boys are by and going down into the heart of the city and buying Viagra tablets because they are watching porn and they think that the girls need them to be able to perform at a certain standard.

    And so they are learning all of these things and they think that's what sex is about in this sexual relationship is to be and to them. If they can't be seen to be like what they are watching, then they are feeling. Yeah, but none of them have said that the girls tell them that they are failing. It's their perception that if they don't do what they see, they are failing. Well, how do you feel, though? Would you rather someone went five minutes or 50 minutes into this?

    No, no, no.

    It depends on the mood. I mean, it is like tissue there.

    You know, please unlock the. They are doing. You've got 15 minutes and you have done absolutely nothing.

    That is 17 times in 50 minutes, no quality over quantity.

    And if the quality is of such. It can be, I can tell you, OK, I have a car. You have said a lot. I will give you a lot of May. There is an experience that I had over many, many years ago, and it's just is fresh in my mind. And it's the only time I as a matter of fact, the gentleman said he should have married me. But then that's another story. But the only time we slept together and it still stays in my brain because of the attention and the no pressure and all of the things I got the best massage I've ever had in my life.

    OK, and that was I was just like putty after that. It was just absolutely brilliant.

    OK, notwithstanding, the gentleman would not have been a suitable husband. But that's beside the point. The point is that in terms of paying attention to me and understanding my reactions and not asking me, do you want me to do this and do you want me to? And do you like that note of that? It was just absolutely brilliant. Beautiful. Unfortunately, I've tried to judge a few people on the standard that you can't do that. If you do that, you are in trouble, but.

    And that didn't that didn't last for long. It wasn't a 50 hour, a 50 minute ride. I mean, good grief. Something like 40, so who like Hawking doing sex while?

    He called us out and he met. Well, again, I think it's individual and I think you can ask all of these questions, but you never going to get the answers that you definitively made. This is your personal favorite. That is not why I just thought you might be talking, as I say, Sandra pointed out something. We tend to have that one person we had sex with and we tried to duplicate it with other people. So we end up having that comparison disorder.

    I feel that sometimes can hinder us from actually developing great sexual relationship with other people because we are looking for that one thing in another person, not realizing that they are somebody else and maybe they can never replicate that which had happened previously.

    Yeah, yes, that's true. It's like Carl said, is this individual is different and every every relationship has a different like graph. And so every sexual relationship will also have that unique of one of the things. So so I get to listen to lots of men who are struggling and lots of men, I think, grow up with the idea that women don't really want sex and men so that you get a lot of lying on dating sites because men think they have to promise in relationship to get sex.

    And I think the big lesson that men need to learn is if they can make a woman feel safe and trusted, that's all they need to get sex. But it is. And like couples pick up.

    Really, the men have this idea of that they need to live up to a certain image like they need to, like they said in their dick pics like that's going to impress someone and seduce someone when and what women are really looking for is attention and like curls his presence. But so many people are trying to say the right thing to be the right way. That they so focused on that and they're not actually there and that blocks the connection. Oh, I was just going to ask Michael what she likes to talk about during sex.

    I was just going. The weather out the west. OK, open. It was that shopping to leave the bush, the cardinal, in addition to the weather, what else? These are you asking for tips? She's trying to get in and I'm just curious, is not being serious over this.

    Why do you like talking to insects?

    Well, I think I think what's important is when you look at what you want, what you like and why you like it. So what do you like talking? Oh, I don't talk, but I'm curious as to why Nicole talk, but that's she that's that's quite personal.

    So it's putting someone on the spot. Let's get to what are you looking at to understand what you're trying to understand from that question?

    Oh, it's because my boyfriend talked and it was a bit strange to me, so I wondered why he talked. So he did answer me. So I want to get the answer perspectives from other people.

    OK, I'm sure I mean, there is some thinking that I think that when when you're intimate with someone, I think it can often be about a physical book is to incorporate the mental as well as in it really, and to connect on a mental level. And it can be more for women, but it's writing. So I think deeper connection maybe. So what do we talk about, like a telephone sex?

    That as well, you just emphasize what's going on, but you make a point of it in certain words, I'd like to hear Nichols answer it a accompanied by some, let's put it that way.

    You can choose whether or not you've asked her five times and she's not telling you to change it.

    Just. Yeah, and things that can add to the intensity, I guess.

    OK, but what I think it depends on the person that you're with. There's some people that you can connect with without saying a word. And it works and it flows. And there is another person who you are with and you both. And afterwards, you may not even remember what you're saying because it's of the moment. It's about what's happening and it just goes with the flow and it fits because that person then you you're you're into change. And it's not about one person talking and the other one not responding.

    And somebody might bring that out in you if you are not accustomed to doing that. But I think it's it's specific to the person. OK, I think I think really all of relationships is specific and sex is specific because we all have different. Desires, different likes, different dislikes, different tastes, and it's and again, it's different in because we're different in different environments and so we are different in different contexts with different people. So. Yeah, I think it's it's individual and what matters is what's right for you and learning about what's right for your partner partners.

    OK, so. We've I've run again, but thank you, everyone, for your openness, honesty and insight. So I think if we go free quickly, anyone who wants to comment, any insights or any anything that they share to anyone else, any general. Like your insight that you'd give to someone else on the whole topic of sex, if anyone wants to share. I think I think that, as we said, it's quite a complex subject and it's very it's very dependent on the situation and the relationship and that probably, almost definitely shame shouldn't come into it at all and preconceptions shouldn't come into it to talk.

    So we talked about masturbation and masturbation has something which has an element of shame, but I don't see why I don't understand that at all. And also some people have and I think it's something you can do together where you can be a part or you can do you can do individually, together. It's not something that matters. It's something that traditionally there is an element of shame associated with that through, I think, social control. And, um, where you were talking before about losing maybe losing interest in the partner, I think that something that occurred to me is that there's a complex where by and I can't remember what it's called, where by that if your you can put somebody on a pedestal and they can be like a friend, if that makes sense.

    And there's a psychological control that stops you from seeing your brother or your sister or something like this, and you can fall into that kind of mode, I can't think what it's called. So like guys might like might talk it like being in the friendzone or something like this. My making sense. Um, so there's a it's not sex is biological and there are biological elements to that. But there also there is some there is some sort of biological control so that you don't you don't fancy the wrong person and that that can happen if you think about them in the wrong way.

    I guess, um, I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself. Well, what I know there's an incest taboo. Yeah. It's not it's not taboo. It's biological. It's a biological control within your brain.

    Um, the taboo is, is people that you you grow up with very young tend not to be interested in them sexually. Yes. You're talking something slightly different now.

    I'm saying that it's not the taboo, it's it's actually biological so that you don't fancy them.

    So that I'm trying to explain that it's not true because, you know, sometimes when the father is a little bit frightening person and the children meet with each other and they didn't know the siblings, they can fall in love. So it's not biological.

    There are many fathers who come here who have committed incest throughout history, so I don't know, I, I it's something that I read once and I can't remember there's something like that called the Oedipus complex, which I think is the other way is where actually it is.

    But I think there's also I think there's also an emotional biological trigger that's meant to stop us from fancying our brothers and sisters or our parents. And you're saying, oh, no, that can fall down. And yes, it can. But I think that's something that can also you can fall into so you can start thinking of someone. You can start thinking of someone. Norns, actually, they can be a friend. So I think men and women can be friends if that makes sense.

    And you can either fancy them at certain points or not. Um, and that's where a lot of interest can occur. I think that's what I'm trying to get at, but I'm not really explaining myself very well. Yeah, I think I get yeah, I mean, people I mean, it does happen a lot in relationships with people become more that house housemates. So the incest taboo is, I mean, theorized to be biological, but obviously it doesn't it's not in all cases.

    And there are exceptions to every rule, but generally is like the idea is that if you go out with someone, you're free for five, you don't fancy them when you grow up.

    And then, of course, there's incest and there's abuse by coaches, there's actually support for what you're saying, Robin, that close relatives who who never grew up together.

    Uneaten have been attracted to each other and only after they have found out that they are actually biologically related, which means which probably would not have happened if they had been familiar with each other growing up as Eocene. Well, they say you tend to fancy people who look like you. Yeah, yeah.

    OK, any closing comments I'd like to add this, if there's one thing I've learned about sex is that you can never stop learning and understanding yourself. You need to know what you want and not be ashamed about it as long as it's safe to do what you want to do. So go out there and explore. We all have this one life. And it's something we have learned from this pandemic is that one day we like to be there for us to interact.

    So don't let society or religion or anybody limit your exploration. How fun. Do what is right for you, Yolanda. Thank you. OK, thank you, everyone. The competition is not a competition. Yeah, I think it's a journey, it's a journey of discovery, and it's and it's not thinking that it's over with the act, it's not thinking that it's the same thing, but it's recognizing there's a genuine sensitivity. OK, well, thank you very much.

    New experiences. Try new things.

    OK. Next week, we have the next week, there's a five day sprint, so we here Monday to Friday, seven o'clock to nine. And I was going to run on that ticket for. I think the elections are just gone, but you're you're there for the next one. OK, have a good week, everyone. Thank you for being here. Bye bye. Iraq have a grieving.