Insights From A Year of Talking

    This episode is a year from our first Meetups in these groups. We’ve covered so much ground, from breakups, to dating and so many different aspects of relationships.

    This was a chance to look back and reflect on what we learned and what’s changed for us

    Transcript

    Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips.

    This is a one the one year anniversary of our first meetup of these groups, so what I thought we do is look at where each of us was last year. And I feel like, man, I really struggle to remember and feel like some people can remember a lot about the past, doesn't see much of the future. It's all future. And I have very little awareness of my past. So where were you last year in the last year when we've been talking?

    What what insights have you had? Has that changed the way you think about relationships? Yeah, anything like that. Well, what struck you? What changed? What insights if you had. So if we start in breakout rooms thinking personally. Where you were last year. And in trying to track what insights you've had over on relationships in the last year and for those of us that have been quite regular to these, we've. We've covered he can remember what we've covered.

    Pretty much every aspect we've done book reviews of the government's handfish stance, hacking for agreement.

    It was a pyramid of some sort.

    OK, let's look at about the Egyptians are actually nobody's mentioned football Delante, which is probably next year and as well.

    So that's a love hate relationship for you.

    Yeah. Anything football and devastated. Don't mention either.

    OK, now now I feel like Battlefield's say. We've talked about dating. We've talked about problems of online dating. We talked about men and women, different journeys. We've talked about type of relationship. We talked about we've done the five day sprint, which was reframing the medieval mindset. We talked about the for free rebellion, the so we cover most things. We talked about sex. We talked about we donate money. Yeah, we do different frameworks, sex, money done parenting.

    We talked about trust. So there's a few things that we've covered and some people who are new to the group and for anyone who's who is their first time, what we do is we generally we go off into the program and have private conversations. The main room discussion is recorded. So all of the past meet ups are available to listening in on. So we usually start with the same set up and then we open up to open discussion. Today is really about just sharing perspectives.

    Overall, the group of the group is to share different perspectives to because it's based on the premise that all of us have an idea of relationships or or whatever, but none of us is completely right. And we only find out where we like our blind spots and where we are wrong in Erva from living out and having a problem based on that or from learning from people with different perspectives. So today is just really about sharing whatever each of us has has got insights in relationships.

    And even if you haven't been here in the group, I'm sure things have happened in your relationships where you've learned from or other books or other conversations you've had. Okay, so we're going to go to the breakout rooms. Does anyone want to talk about there's anything significant happened over the last year in terms of their relationship?

    Jeremy, as I was saying in the breakout room as well, for me it wasn't so much as an AHA moment, although there were a lot of useful techniques and ideas that came across over the past year. I think for me, the most useful thing about these sessions that have been the fact that through talking about things and listening to other people, I was able to better understand myself. So I think subconsciously I perhaps knew things or about myself, but didn't I know it's difficult to kind of explain, but sometimes I used to, for example, for years I wondered what's what what is happiness?

    Why am I not happy with my life? Well, why am I don't I feel unhappy? You know, I've got I've got a wife, I've got kids, I've got any money problems. I've got a house, OK? There's a mortgage on it, but it's not like it's unmanageable or anything. So I don't have a problem. I've got a good job and I'm a happy one. I'm happy then. Now I kind of realize looking back, it's because in the relationship, I didn't have the.

    Emotional connection with my ex. You know, we weren't on the same wavelength. Yeah, we were too good people. We made it work. We played our part. And we were respectful towards each other and all the rest of it. But there was no magic. And I don't understand that at the time, I understand that a lot more now and I'm more aware of what what what what are my limitations? What what do I bring to the table?

    I now know that at the time I wouldn't have be able to tell you. And as I was saying when I first got married, if you said to me, do you know what you want? I would have said that categorically. Yes, of course I did. But in reality, I didn't. And if I did explain it, it would have been very naive and laughable terms like, oh, I'm looking for a good person. So long as she has got a good personality, that's fine.

    We'll get along. And, you know, if she needs to change her and that's what I'll help her change. I mean, that's that's very naive and very so I didn't realize that at the time. And I suppose going through a divorce, I've thought about this a lot. And also coming to these meetings has kind of helped me clarify all of that. So I'm a lot more comfortable and clearer about where I am, what I might read, lines, what do I, what I what can I contribute?

    What do I expect in return? And so so that's kind of been my my journey, I think.

    Thank you. I think what we need usually is usually we know stuff because we can't learn anything that's too far from what we already know. But we know stuff. But sometimes we just need to separation from ourself and a situation. And until we can learn it from seeing someone else or from hearing it from someone else can help because someone else maybe has articulated it in a way that we have kind of when we say outside of ourselves, we can take you in.

    And I think I think I was in that apartment and where I think a lot of us get married or get involved and get committed and get married before we've ever worked out what we want or who we are. And then we're working back from that. Thank you. And this isn't just what you've got from the group, but it can be something that's happened that you've learned from or something that you've learned somewhere else. But it's just looking at over the last year.

    Where were you? What's changed? What have you gained from that rupture?

    In my thoughts, using a new brand vocabulary, taking myself out of seeing things from a scientific point of view at different. Yes. So I no longer talk about plants and animals alone. Yes. I'm not talking about emotional matters. And that, I suppose. But seriously. As you rightly said, there are many things that you have come across already, but they come not in any sequential order and they don't come necessarily at a time when you probably appreciate it for what it what it actually means.

    So there's a bit of a jumble. And in that regard, having had all of these conversations for an entire year, it does give you a focus in terms of streamlining your thoughts, you know, and how to think about some of these things, especially some of the graphs and the charts that you because I am one of those people who like graphs and charts, I see my world in those using those things. And that has helped me quite a lot because it summarizes it gives me the overview, which is how I see the world.

    In many respects, though, it has helped me from that in that regard.

    I love the little discussed in the last. I'm not exactly one year in the girls. However, I could see I learn those. Actually, to be myself again, to be not afraid to express it, that. Also, how to be active listening, you know, not just about content, it's about context, it's so important because words are just words, the tension behind it, so much more important. And I've been able to. Actually, forgive for my father's after 20 years, I didn't stop fixing Krupali, probably, what, maybe once, five minutes before and now this year, I managed to talk to him and forgive him what was happening in the past.

    And I realized what he did. It's just to protect us from my perspective, maybe wasn't the best one from it, but that's what he tried to do, what he got on that time. Nobody was writing the book about this before, you know, nobody suggests. So he did what he could do in the committees. And that's what I learned, that it's no black people out there. It's just they try to survive and sometimes they just cause somebody pain.

    But their intention is not to do that generally. And if you act like that to them back, it will actually give you more more oh, I could call it more than just love. You feel good after, you know, it's just I understand more to be human being. And that connection, it's honestly it's just a different world for me.

    Thank you. And in the last year, I've changed my job twice. And I generally work on the helpline style calls where people are in a lot of trouble. And by what I found is that I think the last year has been a great opportunity for many people. I think I think covid and the fact that everybody's having to change and some people are struggling more than others has given the opportunity for people to express emotion and importantly to hear the people's emotions.

    And I think that's had quite a big effect really on the last year with myself, because I'm because of the type of thing that I've been doing for years, I only work on one level. But to hear more and more people coming through and just going straight to the point, what's hurting as opposed to, you know, fudging and this that's all the other it's been great. I think it's I think it's something that hopefully is going to carry on after covid.

    And I'm hoping it could be a turning point for mental health because it got to such a level. The people I mean, I think people generally think that they're supposed to have bad mental health because everybody else has a lot to talk about, it is best because you don't want to burden other people. I think that's the thing I always used to think when I was younger, especially with men, it's been strong and not showing weakness. But actually, the more people I speak to, especially perhaps about my age, you don't want to burden other people, but actually your burden and more by not saying anything because they have to second guess and they don't know what's going on.

    So I think the last has been really good for that in terms of self relationship is sort of quite optimistic. But I am finding it increasingly difficult to stay in the jobs that I do because I'm essentially around finance, because although although the message is about being kind and helping people in vulnerable circumstances, business is still a business. And a lot of businesses are sort of put in this budget where they're saying, you know, we help vulnerable people but actually going to go underneath the bonnet, that they're not actually doing anything more in terms of their structure and their processes and their practical financial assistance is just actually they're just asking people to just have a little bit of empathy on the.

    We'll take a bit more time, but actually not necessarily delivering. On things that they could, and that's the frustrating part, so I'm literally in between jobs at the moment because I really don't know where to go next for my next move. Yeah, it's it's my next challenge, which is part of the reason why I've started coming on here to to listen to other people's sort of journeys and how they managed change and things like that.

    If you were going to design the solution, that would help people and that really would help people and still be commercial. Would you have an idea of how you would do it?

    Oh, yes, it's very simple, really, but I think the thing is, is whether or not the big institutions will take it on board, you know, that's the thing, because from my perspective with finance and I think it would be difficult to argue against that really is the fact raising money is kind of nondescript anymore. Really, money and debt doesn't really matter anymore because every single country is in debt. You know, the strongest country in the world, which is meant to be America.

    ll maxed. We all went through:

    It's possible that for some countries they will have to address it because they they are bankrupt to the point where they've lost sovereignty. And large numbers of people, unfortunately, are taking the option of not being here and they have to address it. We really do have to address the problem. And it's and it's one of those taboo subjects. And that's what I found, because I've got a lot of friends who are counselors and work in mental health. And that's why when we chat, I, I sort of.

    I can I don't give them the details, of course, you know, but but basically somebody can speak to me in two minutes and within two to ten minutes, I know exactly the pain points of hurts and pain, whereas if they go and speak to a counselor, that may take them four or five sessions to get. And the difference is, is that there's money involved and that is practicality. So somebody might come and take away something I actually functionally need.

    And therefore, I've got to be crystal clear with my situation. I haven't got that luxury of going through my emotions. And that's why I think mental health groups really should be Lincolnian and banks and organizations like that should be also bringing them in to actually have people working within those institutions, but actually being paid for by the mental health sections. Because because the very fact that you've got finance and mental health being run by a financial institution, it doesn't work because the finance is money and you want to get money.

    So as much as you can trying to the mental health thing, it kind of is very costly and it goes against core business. So I think we have to find some way of integrating thoughts.

    I think there's a lot of areas where the structure of society is reaching a breaking point where things just don't work, like the level of debt is unsustainable. And yet No. One, it's not politically viable to pay off the debt and get elected. Okay. Thank you for that. Were you going to pick on someone?

    I was just going to say something just to follow on from what Robert was saying. Yeah. And what you were saying then. It kind of relates to our conversation in a kind of roundabout fashion. It's because society is built on the accumulation of resources. So we try to measure the value of everything. You do something. How much is it worth? It's worth this much. So, OK, you're a brain surgeon. It's worth ten thousand pounds a day or you're a mergers and acquisitions lawyer.

    We can pay you a thousand pounds an hour. You are a counselor the most of all time. A councillor. OK, maybe think with an hour. So it's a kind of arbitrary value, but that's because quite often we don't understand intangible things, the value of intangible things. What's the value of being called? And if you're the right sod and you screw people over and you sell them something that they think they won't, even though you know that that's no good for them, you make lots of money.

    So that's OK. It's legal to. But. But if you are a person to go now, this is what you want, actually, you want this and people go, no, I don't want that, I want something else. And they go. And so all of a sudden that you don't make any money because that understanding is there. So how does it relate back to as it relates back to us? Because a lot of us are here not because of money issues, but because we've got maybe interaction issues.

    And I'm not trying to suggest that we all got some sort of mental health problems. But I suppose what I'm saying is that we need to kind of get in touch with or realign our values or at least get in touch with ourselves. And there isn't something you are taught at school, at school. You have to look at facts and figures, rightly so, how to solve problems, which is also a very good thing. And part of the reason why I kind of searched out groups and kind of joined them, I was lucky enough to find this one is because I'm trying to solve the problem.

    I know I have a problem, but I don't know what the answer is. So I'm looking for it. And I was lucky enough to find it here. And so at school, we don't really get taught about relationships. I mean, they do sex education, for example. Like I've got a 14 year old, he goes and he comes back and they told us about these things. I don't want to know. Disgusting, but they don't tell them about.

    Yes, but you know what? Do you actually understand how to talk to a girl? You actually see a girl in the right way, or do you see her in a more sexual way? You know, this is not about sexually transmitted diseases. It's about the relationship and understanding and connecting the action of the girl to begin with to. And I don't mean in a way that kind of makes a girl go girl, Denise, but that you can connect to her in a more emotional level that you actually sat around.

    You know, I mean, I was brought up in an environment where girls were all like delicate flowers. Right. You know, they're all pretty and nice and clean and fresh. And I'm sorry that the girls will get offended by this. But you know what? Girls are just like guys in the sense that some of them are great and some on the right nasty. And you have to know the difference between a flower and a stinging nettle. And you're going to notice I don't go and grab all of them and then, you know, find it was actually a cactus after all.

    And you didn't realize so. Because in this society, we concentrate on facts and figures and the concept of tangible stuff, intangible things are difficult and we tend to shy away from difficult things. And so as a result, we get the broken society to talk about because we are producing people that are not complete. And for a human being to be truly happy, they have to address the intangible aspect, the social, the the intellectual, the emotional aspect, and we don't teach people that.

    So rather than doing PHC and talking about all different religions and my son comes home, says, you know, Jewish Jews and Muslims that are in Christianity that but you actually understand those people understand their point of view. Do you know how to understand somebody whose point of view, whether you agree with it or not, do you have the self-discipline to sit there and listen to something you truly do not agree with and yet try to see it from their point of view, regardless of the fact that you think they are talking about all the rubbish?

    Can you do that and be able to explain it back to them and then be able to go back and say, well, how about this and show them some challenges, but in a way that you do not shout over? So I'm coming back to your original saying, let's not talk about football. I think we should talk about football. You know why? Because it was disgusting the way the British fans were booing the Italians every time they got possession of the ball.

    Are we there as a bunch of hooligans over there to appreciate skill? And we should appreciate good football, regardless of which team it comes from, and we should just maybe deplore some of the pulling and pushing bits on the pitch because it's football, not rugby or, you know, some sort of fighting wrestling game. And it is that that we don't see, you know, people go, oh, you know, they don't somebody down there and nobody says, well, why was there such disgusting foul's going on that there had to be a low cost producer?

    Because at that level, at the place, those people who are potentially role models for young, impressionable minds are displaying hooligan attitudes, which then they feel it's justified, and then they behave in a really good agonistic where no one says anything. No one says, well, hang on a minute, these guys are guests in the U.K., we are in the majority because of covid situation. So let's show some respect. You're never going to get rid of all the yellow and red cards in football?

    No, no, no, of course not. But what I'm saying is that the collective attitude of people has struck me. As you know, Italians are here and they are playing. And if they play good football, then, you know, if you don't want to cheer them, that's up to you. But you should not be blowing them just because they got the ball.

    Yeah, I think you're making great points there. I think football sort of is a good one to want to talk about, because what's happened is the game of football has changed because it's become professional and people talk about in rugby, they get fouled and they don't make so much difference. But the difference is how much money is involved. And once you get once money becomes involved, it becomes professional. And so it's not about footballers of a Pansy's and Kontiki kicking is the fact that every every tiny advantage is worth so many million.

    You know, when you look at Messi and Ronaldo, what was it like two hundred million a year or something like that? Now they're great footballers, but they would never like, if you will, if you were valuing what they did based on the alternatives of they had for bringing in money without football, they could never bring anything close to that, not even a fraction. And so what's happened is clubs have there's all this kind of sponsorship which also came out where we're now.

    And I was like, not Coca-Cola, just drink water. All of those things have perverted football. So it's about the image and it's about all of these things. And this is really because people pay ridiculous amounts of money for the shirts, for or whatever else for the TV rights. It's become something that's not really about a game anymore because it's not about being better off than it is about part. It is about why it's got so popular. Is the tribalism so fundamentally?

    It's the school. The school system is set up to make you a good citizen. What is a good citizen? Someone who produces who makes money for the society. And because of that, emotional health has been completely disregarded. And so there is this valuing of the superficial. And so what kids now want to be YouTube is and is the Kardashians and all those factors which mean that the superficial gets valued. And but it also is also in culture, and if you look at so if you look at self-help books, it's the superficial, like if you look at probably what's the biggest selling most recommended book, Think and Grow Rich, Think and Grow Rich, which is a complete work of fiction.

    It's like Napoleon Hill was the biggest scammer who was changed his name because he was on the run. He's lied about like two of the he's only admitted to two of the marriages that he was involved in. He was like, Really? Yeah. Yeah. He was arrested for domestic violence, for pulling children. He like he never. Well, there's no no record and no probability that he ever met Andrew Carnegie. He claimed to be adviser to presidents.

    There's no record of him ever seeing any of those. And the whole like he'd written all of these books in kind of like scams going back years. Like he there was the scam where he had a timber yard where he used to get all the timber and sell it cheap and then just run off without paying for it. So he was constantly on the move.

    Who is this person?

    Napoleon Hill. And do you like Tony Robbins and all these things? My life. So OK, so let's look at the message. And the secret is basically thinking very rich and bringing it to a modern audience. So thinking very rich. Why is it so popular? Because what he did was he went round and looked at the sermons, like from the evangelist preachers, which sermons got the most money. And they are the seventeen lessons, I think, and grow rich because he knew it was going to be popular.

    And it's it's like even now, like the people who are most popular with on social media is basically by taking. Finding what's going to resonate with someone like you, look at the most popular viral videos and basically what they're doing is things that people do agree with. So it's all the kind of things that people say anyway. And like there's ways of you find what's popular and then you just like you test it out and then pitch it. And so.

    There's a lot of it's really are values, that stuff that's hard. Stuff that takes discipline is always going to be less popular. Because fundamentally, it comes down to we have to accept the reality that there is, whereas something like the secret or the diet that tells you that you just see this movie or Slim Fast or something like that, which isn't actually helpful, is always going to be more popular because it's more palatable. In the same way that like sweetners, when you look at past and sweetners, where there's lots of evidence that is cancer producing and actually.

    Harmful to us. If you look at even the a lot of people want to be vegetarian, but they still want to eat, make it easy to the corn or corn was produced in Anisi lab is completely artificial. There's no, like, nutritional value in it. So but it makes it easier for people. And so fundamentally, we've got to look at the values that we have of like wanting to take the easy option vs. confronting the real facts of the situation.

    That's my rent for the my right. I'm sorry.

    No, not at all. I think I see two points there. One of them is that the value systems do not put a price on intangible things. I think that's quite important to understand that. So what are good manners? Well, what is the worth of a good personal. We haven't costed that out because it's not easy to do it and people don't really know how to go about doing it, so we haven't. So in a way, we ignore it and so it becomes worthless.

    And that's why we get a skewed reality. That's one thing. The other one, of course, then feeds because you that has got no value. Then you end up with the disposable society instant. I will what I want and I want it now. And if I don't like it, I throw it away and I get another one. And so you get people applying that to their relationships as well. I mean, you know, it's easier to give up than to try.

    And, you know, if you want to treat your relationship like a loaf of bread from Sainsbury's, you know, I don't like the taste of this one, you know, throw it away, get another one. If that's the kind of where you're going to look at relationships, then you're not going to get very far. And so. Pull the discipline away, was that worth how much money is worth and how much money can you put on self-discipline?

    It is probably isn't, but I will suggest that it probably is worth far more than anybody's salary because self-discipline will help you sort yourself out. So your relationship can improve yourself, because you have to be able to know yourself, to be able to make yourself do things that you don't feel like doing. Self-discipline is applied in the morning. I don't want to get out of bed because it's rainy and cold and it's nice and warm in the bed through to I need to get all this work that I need to clean the house.

    And it's getting late and I'd rather sit there and watch a movie. Just it can apply to everything or this project needs to go in and I need to just get on with it rather than doing something that's more fun. So self-discipline, unpleasant, what's the value of that? And there is no monetary value on it. And I think that's where as a society we go wrong, because we're judging everything, but much something is I think does want to say something.

    Yeah, just on that point, I, I think it really comes down to talk about being in relationships. We have a medieval mindset, I think in the whole emotional side of things we do. And if there was more depth of knowledge, there would be an equivalent currency. And I think having that currency would enable us to make better decisions like in business in all kinds of ways. Yes, sorry, guys.

    It was not to argue with their rabbis is a regular on and a few people are. I wonder whether sometimes by the tenderness actually it's always been the play of the mind a bit and we might watch it before. I'm, I don't but I will mention about do we pick a pillow at some point we go, that's not for me. I'm just going to get into the love got different. What we're related to is it's like, where's that line of do you give up on a relationship?

    You've tried enough times three or four times. You've on and off, split up or whatever you've done all you still speak and there's only two involved, but you clash intimate. And when that, you know, let's put that love back on the shelf, let's give up on that relationship and try the next one or have a bit of a break free. Wait, wait for week break, however long that break is before you say I'm going to try the next one.

    Are you trying out that? I'm trying to make sure I explain myself is because I saw a post recently saying it's one person in each person, extrovert and you just clashing team watching the beliefs of what you what you believe you want in a relationship. I remember a couple of times in one of my most serious relationships, my most serious one, which is four and a half years ago, and I've met people since, but it still hasn't lasted as long as that one.

    And it's basically it was a bit like, well, I see this in relationship. What she said at one point, we both said maybe we're two different. But then about the argument said, no, no, no, we're not. So at what point do you say we were just two different? Neither have you tried hard enough to communicate well enough. At what point do you say you two were meant to be. I'm not here, I don't debate.

    I mean, sometimes I don't know whether you are the only ones seated recently in this comical mood. I've just watched a series on Netflix. It's quite common cold. I think it's called Sex Life.

    What your kids education. There's one that's like in school.

    Know that. I think that sex education, it's sex life is all about seven episodes.

    I've watched it unfold in one of the very latest, one of the very last episodes. She turned around to the guy which took it bad and said the difference between us all when I was 20 years old, I thought she was youngish anyway, of the difference with the guy who married with now got two kids with his he's never heard or he's never watched her. And that stuck in my head. But thought always say, you know, at some point when you've got to when he's not got to close, at what point do you give up one loaf and say, I'm going to have a break, I'm going to try something different?

    I to explain myself.

    Yes, I think that's a good question. I think it's a good question to open up because it's like I'm thinking about that now. You've got style. You've got guy. Yeah, so you got style guy. There's a spectrum, but that's like it's a very tough choice. And I think what we need to do is to analyze it more, so if you just got there, it's about and trying to think what dimensional it is about the awareness of is it fixable or is it not fixable?

    And I think there's a scale on there, so rather than being elected, which is a binary choice, is then about the other dimension of whether it's fixable. So few imagine, instead of it being a choice, it is stay or go. It then becomes a faulty choice, like a full quarter, and it becomes like, could you stay and be better? Could you stand to be worse? Could you go in and be worse or could you go and it'd be better and then does that make sense?

    Is more dimensional launched? Because I think it's not just one question. It if that's why you laid into it, should you stay or go? It's like, you know, could you make changes? Can you compromise? Because that applies because they make changes without making. And again, I've got much respect for a number of individuals that I've listened to in the past. I was willing to make changes to going out with CEO once a week and every week.

    And so that was my goal. I'll tell you what, I think I can make more. I'll tell you what a one year old you're so not my son. And if you want me to, I'll come to his policy and at school agree with you. So I was stepping back and thinking, I know somebody else is sniffing around you and maybe you're thinking, well, I got can I do any more? Yeah, but the other person said I can't do anymore.

    And they said thought, well maybe things be a bed of roses at the time, but that's around when it's you that has to change.

    Yeah. I mean, I mean sometimes one of the big problems is we don't always get the truth from someone and sometimes someone's made the decision. But I just don't want to come out and say and I want to blame other factors. But I think the key generalizing, not not talking about your specific situation, but like in me in these discussions, they tend to be abstract because if we talk specifically, it doesn't relate to everyone. But I think it is however, many more dimensions you can add in is the Rucha decision you can make.

    But sometimes, yeah, the decision is like sometimes the decisions made, the details are getting sorted.

    But can I if if you know who you are and you know what your core values or know what your needs and wants, and if you're being open, honest and transparent and you're communicating to that person, if they meet in you, where they where you are and they communicate back or they're not. In other words, if they're not meeting your needs, then you have to pick up a little bit of what you'll start to get when the whole point of the relationship that you'll need to get in, that is.

    So what you're saying is you're in a relationship, you're not really happy, doesn't mean I'm being back. So it's time to move on.

    Oh, yeah. If you communicate openly, honestly and transparently, if they're meeting you where you are or if they can or they will not, then what other option do you have other than to go and get another loaf of bread lest you starve to death?

    Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the situation does is talking about is I'm reading between the lines. I don't think that was asked in an honest discussion about it. But to put it more generally, more generally, I think when two people meet, the truth of whether it's going to work out or not is already there. It's how long it takes to get the truth from the other person.

    What do you mean by what are you there?

    Everyone's got a framework of what they expect from a relationship, what they how they feel it's going to how they feel relationships wrong, how they feel like the way that they approach the relationship, how willing they are, the capacity to be open, to be honest, to be vulnerable, to be respectful, to have integrity. All of those things they're already set in the past and how honest they are means you might not find that out for ten years like and how aware you are because someone can put.

    Like, all of that stuff only comes out in the right context when you're challenged in the right situation. So. When people first meet, they usually present differently from how they are and then as you get into the relationship. You realize that all of us have been scarred, all of us have misunderstood things, all of us have been hurt that haven't healed, all of us have ideas that aren't going to work out. And all of that is what causes the problems in relationships.

    So it's really. Someone's dam wall says when you marry someone you marry have problems, and so it's really someone's problems. Determine how your relationship is going to go and your problems, determine how Lynn is going to go. So whether you don't pay them enough attention, whether you don't treat them so well, whether you can't cope with being angry, whether you secretly addicted to drugs, whether you can have affairs, all of those things are pretty much set in how willingness, the willingness to to be open, the willingness to work things out and the need to stay in the relationship.

    All of those things are going to determine how the relationship plays out. And yes, people will change. But part of. Whether they will change and how much they'll change depends on their willingness to change and all that is said initially at the beginning of the relationship.

    So when you when you say the framework or you could say up before you use the word operating system or you're talking about their attachment style, you all of that, all of all of what's happened to them in childhood, what they expect the assumption is that they have like their communication style, whether they're willing to communicate the capacity, all of that is set and. How the relationship develops just depends on when all these things are whittled down. And at the end, you get the truth and most people leave a relationship and go, oh, my ex was shit.

    And they were like a bastard and all this stuff. And they weren't necessarily. But it was like we've talked about like that graph of normal relationship, guys like that. And there's a point where that brings out the worst in people. And so we've also talked about the point of relationships kind of finished and then someone's checked out. But it's like on average, people take six years to leave. A relationship in those six years is when they have the affairs in those six years is when they switch off and grow apart.

    In those six years is when they do. The thing that I get that later explains why the relationship broke. But. A lot of the bitterness and anger that people have in the end of a relationship is because they were bringing out the worst in each other.

    It's the only spin not on us to have the level of self-awareness and honesty with ourselves and to see that person for what they are and to be aware that what we see superficially in the first three months isn't all there is. What I'm saying this is yet everybody's got their baggage. But if we're aware of that and we were not lost in a Disney fantasy, then we're not falling in love with with the mask, as it were. And we're taking our time.

    Yeah, well, if we if we raise the ball and we're looking for the open, honest, transparent communication, if that person isn't meeting us there, that's the information we need. And we can make a decision then. Do I eat this loaf of bread, which is still or do I buy another one? Yeah, but stability isn't it? Because we can't we can't be in a relationship with someone and say he or she was a communique and then we're just sitting there for seven years.

    If we have the awareness and the self-respect, we deal with that information and we make an appropriate choice.

    Yes. So. So that's really how you go in with a like an evolved understanding and relationship operating system. And it's pretty free, really free will, real ways that we that we delude ourselves. There's even dogma. We follow the dogma. We we just don't know it. We're just not aware of it or emotionally. And however much we can talk about, don't get overinvest too early. All of these things, we still will just because we're animals and emotions override logic.

    So we got we got cue I, I saw Carl Yanase and then it was Eva as or Sandra. But you're going to have to fight out.

    OK, so at the moment I'm trying to figure out where this is going, because as it stands, Roberto Mancini, you're not selling this very well. So the first thing you said is, oh, well, you're going to get into something, but you're going to marry a set of problems. So then you're saying there's the Disneyland fantasy? Actually, it's not what you think. It's all flowers in the beginning. Industrial chemicals look. So really do it.

    Why? Why get divorced? Why lose half your state? Can you actually sell me on why we're here? And because otherwise I'm going to get a fleshlight or something. So I need you to tell me why bother.

    OK, well if you get fleshlight and then come back in six months, because when you find that's not enough, because we are animals, so like if you look a dog or move, they join the pack because it's what they do is because I don't know why. Is it because of survival? Is it because of we want to reproduce our genes? Is the bawdiness is a basic need. We can do, we can do. We can't do without oxygen like four minutes.

    We can do without water for maybe a day food for maybe a month and a half, three months. But how long can you do without connection. So we need connection, we built we're hard wired for connection that we need it, we need the whole status thing of feeling useful, feeling like in some way we're valued. So that's the reason the wedding is artificial. The engagement ring, the Facebook posts, they're artificial. They're manifestations of a biological need.

    Yeah. All the things that people are sold on, part of why relationships are so. Correct, such motion is because there's a lot of mythology around that and there's a fear that we're not going to get it and anxiety, most people have a relationship anxiety and anxiety that relationships will never work out for them because of that. That changes the way we go to relationships. So we don't just take what happens. We get emotional, we get hurt, and that causes us to lash out.

    And so the person that we were closest to, the person that we love the most, becomes the person we hate the most. And it's because of that that worry. So, OK, how do you do? Like how do you do relationships without that is about the more realistic you are, the less bitterness there is so that relationships are about bringing out. The best in each other and part of that is recognizing that we are the one making up the story, we are the one that's putting people on pedestals, we are the one that's building it all up.

    And we it's really us. And the extent that we blame someone else is the extent we don't have any control over it. And when we don't have any control, then we have like we're victims of chance and say, so, yeah, there is there is a relation. You can have the relationship. The thing about relationships is, is not about relationships. It's about the relationship and the relationship. Journey means, like I always say, that you.

    You don't have to change for a great relationship, but a great relationship will change you. Because really what we're going for is not really what we want. And in the process of getting there. Okay, so the basic conflict in a relationship is I won't miss you want this. There's this dream and we both think we might think we're a long way away. We're going to the same place. Like if we were traveling from here to New York, we would think we were going to the same place.

    Yet we're right on the same page. We want exactly the same things. We get to New York and we're completely miles apart. And that's where the problem shows. And it's recognizing no one has the same vision as you. No one is exactly the same as you. That basic conflict is because part of what you want isn't like isn't really what you want. And we need a higher level of thinking. And so it's breaking the box of that and I'm rebuilding it in the relationship.

    Thank you, General. And then it's even Sandra or. I'm not sure if I've got your name right, Sibila, your first right, sir.

    Last time we talk about it's about the child love, you know, everybody looking for that kind of love. And that's actually make me realize the only thing for that kind of person looking to. Like. As the ace in charge, you know, with all that beast personality aswell, what we got, what we have to do sometimes in order to survive to somebody accept the dark, but in order to do that, we have to be happy and we should accept ourself first.

    But that's what it's coming. We do not accept in ourselves that somehow we want others to recognize and valued and appreciated for it. You know, we all what we're looking for, we want it to be. To be needed to be valued by someone, but if you don't do it ourselves, how do you want somebody to do it? And most of the times, let's be honest, we all were thinking before we even approached the ladies, we already have a dream house will be with the child translator seemed at the moments before he texted demands approaching and thinking, oh, have we been to bed or whatever, you know, all would be to chat, whatever we all all that.

    Others tend to be in one. In the Fluzone, I think the SEAL team really nicely describing that when they do get in a one metre zone, they're not thinking further than one metre. We as humans, we overthink over to one metre zone, and that's when we get anxiety, that's when we get all that shit, it's that's when we get fear and all that. Guess what you only can control in one meter on. What the top no further than that, it's 90 percent of things will be out of your.

    Brawl even tried to what caused frustrations and it's killing the inside beat and actually asked that it's what you feel, it stuck inside the. Excitement. Because that's very similar to. That's close for each other. We just leave because we don't understand when we don't understand. We try to get over it so easy by looking just putting a label on it, and that's when we're not experiencing the feeling. Let's think about what you actually feel, what is actually dead in front of you.

    Who's that person in front of you? Let it be let it be sure show. We don't need all that controls.

    Sandra Sabetha. First to first time, me, OK, I just quickly say yet Yanase, that's called, I think being in the present and being in the moment is where I know nothing about is OK, so please educate me. Is that part of the whole of tantric experience where if you want to be deeper on the tantric, it's that you look deeper in the eyes of the person you reach, the soul you touch, not just to keep you touch your soul with your eyes and with your words, vehicule tension your mind, because although I've got to go find that person, all I have got to experience this hour is on my list.

    OK, I just wanted to pick up on note. Hold me to it. I've got to find what I take. I'll take a recommendation since I know nobody but I think Betty to build on what Betty was saying. The notion, the idea that, yes, when you identify that someone is not compatible with your your requirements, your your needs are there not, yeah, you just decide that this is not going to work. The other step is to make the decision after you've made that decision is to do with a break is to get is to remove yourself.

    And that, I think, requires another set of attributes, because I think there are lots of people who recognize that the person that they have met is not quite right for them and. How but how do you how do you break that apart? How do you move out of that? How do you move away from that? To me takes another set of strengths that you also need to have at your disposal to to move away from from from something that is not that you recognize is not going to be good for you are meeting your expectations.

    And I think many of us neglect that part of it. And we are not good at doing that. The break up bit is not something that we're good at.

    Yeah, yeah. I mean, really, I think it comes down to is the reason for the three things is it's dogma where we think there's this like societal pressure to stay together. That is a failure. If a relationship doesn't work out, there's. Like the is sort of like the ignorance of of not knowing how someone else will respond or not knowing what's past it, not knowing if you're harming them by leaving. And then it's all the emotional biases of all of those things come out just say, is the purpose of a relationship or is the purpose of this education not to give you the tools so that you can make the correct decision as you're go along?

    Yes. Yeah, I mean, that's the idea that.

    With a point that we should be well informed and self-aware and honest with ourselves and by extension on this with the other person, so we're not in a relationship for twenty five years with someone we can't stand or we're not sitting there for six years waiting to leave.

    Yeah, yes. So part of that is awareness part that is is knowing. But then the other part is the emotional part where when we're not used to doing something, it's difficult first time, it's difficult second time. So there's a difference between knowing what to do so. So the first part is, I think if we know that. Because I think all of the problems that we have in leaving the relationship are in things that aren't necessarily true but that we think of.

    So the awareness and the knowledge then. Light shines a light and can push us over the edge, and then it's about having the emotional capacity to do it because it can be scary because I'm an. There is a kind of emotional ties to this, a lot of colorful opinions here. I was I was just going to agree with a lot of what Betty said, that I feel like your core values need to align with the person. And when we first meet someone, everybody's on their best behavior.

    And over time, we figure out what each person wants. And I feel like we need to be more transparent in the initial stages and compatibility. And I think love languages aren't there like five or six different types of love languages. And I and when it comes to awareness, I feel like we need to understand that the way a person's brought up, like your government and your educational system and your upbringing, all this plays a huge part in who you become as an adult and how you function.

    So I feel like everything's hard, like marriage will be hard, separation will be hard, is not supposed to be easy. And this applies to every relationship that I feel like. My opinion is that any relationship is a partnership. So you're only supposed to contribute 50 percent and the person front is supposed to contribute the other 50 percent. And if there's a mismatch, if you're contributing 60 to 70 percent and that is have an impact on your mental health and you're feeling exhausted, I think that's when you need to start considering.

    Is this the best route? What can I tolerate? What can I not tolerate? And happiness wise, I don't think we should have to rely on an external person, the happiness you're supposed to be happy within yourself and then come together and be a unit and be happier. And last thing I want to mention on this on the chat, the stigma behind divorce is coming up a lot. I feel like, you know, when people get married, we don't question everything that's awesome, that people are coming together, share life, share in their financial security, emotional security.

    I feel like divorce should be seen in the same light, because if you if we were to leave a job or if we were to leave our best friend, no one would question that. People would just think, oh, you weren't compatable, you've gone or found yourself something better. So I think divorce should be seen in the same way that, OK, this didn't work out. We should be able to go and find something better without having to be afraid of people's judgmental views.

    Well, I think I think that there's a fundamental conflict in life in that we are biological animals, but we live in an artificial world. And so most of our problems come from the fact that we're trying to fit into something that isn't natural and we're trying to. So there's certain ideals which have which have cropped up in the same way, like I talked about, the whole thing can grow rich, like there's this whole culture which values certain things, which was based on nothing more really than fiction in the same way.

    Like, that's not new, that's a twenty 20th century adaptation of what various religions and different social programming have done for centuries and millennium and so many of these, we're trying to fear artificial systems that were set up for someone else's gain and they just become. We've become indoctrinated and there's so much lazy thinking that we we say you marriage, good, divorce, bad without any more dimension to it than that. Thank you Vernick. And then call so, so many things here.

    Yeah, well, well I think this is the playing field basically is just a playing field here. Here just to learn to call and and when it expands we, we have is perfect for our present state basically. And and if you, if, if you, if we were educated that way, it would be much easier basically because we would know what to do. We would have a manual. But it's not the case. It's a very harsh environment because what I'm hearing now is like how old are we?

    At what point do we learn this, you know? And and and so I mean, I know everything is perfect as it is, but it's very, very painful. It's really harsh. And and because we are like animals. Absolutely. I mean, I'm trying to to to get back to to be with the man. So I'm even I've just done one of those apps. And when I see someone, I think, you know, I'm disgusted.

    I can't even go for it because my heart is nothing like the minds of most people and and and in general in so beautifully earlier, but articulate, you know, to me to realize this and covid has been such a blessing because we are going inward. We're going to back to to to the to inside where we come from, which is not the physical. It's it's really it's insides and it's from somewhere else. It's not even from us. I don't even think we actually exist.

    Everything comes from from internal to to make us, you know, to give us advice, to make us talk to to make us understand at every stage we have a certain guide that gives us this opportunity. And and I think we're here to help each other, it looks like. And so it's really beautiful to hear this because, you know, before covid, I would never have come to any of these beautiful meet ups. And I'm really touched by what's happening here, you know, and but there's so many so many meet ups like this.

    I have experience with the last couple of months. And but but but but but hearing anybody, you know, I really with my app, if somebody tells me something straight, I'm going to I don't need you. I don't believe anybody anymore. I say, no, you're probably married. I you know, and I'm actually really not nice when I speak to people because my is my neighbor that told me about this, actually. Can you to me two days ago and you were saying, yes, you can say, but don't trust anyone because you're playing games and blah blah blah blah.

    So, so now I'm saying no, I don't believe what we're just, you know, and that's how I'm feeling about everything on this planet. It's it's funny when you look at it that way, but it's actually really upsetting when you're in a bad relationship and even in a relationship. It really looks like when you're ready you don't tolerate, you move on. Blessings, blessing, blessing. Divorce is a blessing. An argument is a great blessing because she really look at it.

    It it it makes you see what you are where you're at and then you decide. And hopefully at that moment you have all the guidance like here. What's happening here on this chat just now to to make us be who we are. Authentic to this, trying to have the courage, because even I you know, I resonate with everything. However, how many times like I wanna do this because I don't have the incentive, even though I have the knowledge.

    So if we don't have the incentive, we have beaten, we can't do anything. You can't get up and turn on this or do this act. We just can't we are completely, you know, overtaken by by whatever uniqueness of emotions or brain or whatever our characteristics are as a human. And we are made that way because we already decided before we came that this is the lessons we're going to learn. That's it is difficult. Thank you. Thank you.

    I kind of had forgot something, but I'd like to present this image and I hope that it's less presumptuous or how can I say judgmental on the image that I'm holding on to see if this works is.

    Hello, after your earlier comment, I'm just wondering what image you see, that's what I've got my camera.

    No, that's just wonderful.

    Not at all. I'm not so well, maybe you don't know to, but the image that I'm presenting is that you have put some one on the left person, too, on the right. So gender neutral. And what's in the middle of the two people is a plant. OK, now different clients have different needs, but if you just work with there are things that are going to nurture that plant and there are elements of behavior that are going to kill it.

    So rather than looking at blame, good person, bad person, which can be upheld, but you're actually realizing that if you show up people that will harm the plant. We understand that that sort of behavior is not nurturing. Is there any debate? Is that it does anybody debate any relationship, if you shall talk aggressively, say nasty things, that that is good and healthy for a relationship? I mean, OK, sometimes it's cathartic, but that's about as best as it gets, so.

    Is it not looking at the things that are going to nurture relationships? I remember in the spring. It was one of the key factors actually nurturing the relationship we have necessarily set out for me. I'm learning what doesn't nurture. I've had to learn the hard way years ago, and I've also been on the receiving end of it in more recent times. So, yeah, I guess I just wanted to present that image to people to see that it's not necessarily about personal one or person two on the left and the right, but that plant in the middle.

    And what you bring into it and somebody I think it was brought up about 50 50 and what both people are putting in. Yeah. But it's also about the qualities somebody could be putting in 50 percent garbage. So I think that's enough.

    It's also the chemistry that one person activates something else in someone, someone else. So I think what makes it what Naches is about freedom. I think ultimately the difference between a good and the bad relationship is freedom and control. And so the deliciously nutritious relationships in the spring talked about, if you come with vulnerability, you create an atmosphere. By the way, if you come with integrity, if you come with presence, and if you come with kindness.

    And so they really want universally nuch people. And then the opposite creates a different dynamic. So. So, yeah, there are obviously I think the thing is that it's so individual that what that the same person. So really when something like call you could you could be with this this person, this person and this person and the relationship of work. And then you could be with this person, this person, this person. And it wouldn't and is really the truth about that.

    Was really Sjaak. And. When like as the relationship plays out, that truth comes out so. Yes, there's Universal. These universal behaviors, I don't wanna be as prescriptive as behaviors, because then it's like there is a chance of of life, but it's about ultimately it's about the emotional capacity of both people and what happens. And when when they OK, so there's that capacity of these like the above the line and below the line and there's above the line relationship, which is where the atmosphere is healthy and they're responding and they're vulnerable and stuff like that.

    And then sometimes it can be someone's going through stress because of that, they're below the line. So in every relationship, they we're all going to break like we all float above and below. So we're all going to shout at times. We're all going to do things that are detrimental. And I think the governments talk about having a ratio of five to one.

    Tell us all the elements of the emotional capacity, all the good things.

    So I think this book really talks about power versus force and it's saying power is above the line where your strong force is, where you're below the line, is basically trying to control someone and trying to force them and manipulate them. So, okay, so what are the elements it's really about? How someone behaves and the fundamental age, so if I look at what I've clarified or what I've got is how much is about capacity? Because everything else rests on your capacity, so.

    There is your capacity for dealing with stress, your capacity for dealing with anxiety, your capacity for how much, the level of pressure and stress that you have to be under before your bottom line. And so it's about, number one, reducing the stresses in your life, creating the environment so that you're stronger, creating the ability, psychological physically of being able to cope with those things and be above the line. Because I sort of quite recently that hurt people, hurt people, hurt people.

    Happy people make people happy. And that's basically what it is, and the truth of whatever relationship works is how much you can make each other happy. So. Like you, I don't think you can have a list of prescriptive things because we've all broken them at times, but it's the ratio, it's how much. And you can never you can never prop someone up. And so it's not about I'll help them change our goal or I'll make them stronger.

    It's about does it work? This is really can I be myself and be loved and love. And if you can, that's the relationship to work. And if you can't, it's a relationship that your efforts are going to artificially prop up. And but sooner or later, it's going to it's going to crash. Does that make sense?

    cet. So if you go back to the:

    You just couldn't financially divorce. And women were on often occasions being beaten because they would have to do what their husbands were told to do. Now, when you go through all of that, and that was only a generation ago, you then have people bringing up their daughters and that society is changing. You're not going to want your daughter to go through the same thing. So I think that sort of levelling out and battle of the sexes has got a lot to do with this particular generation that we're in at the moment as well.

    Because, you know, some men may have grown up with a certain view of what masculinity is and what being and a strong man is. And then there may be some women who actually want to fight against that. And that's something that's inherent from us, from when we're four or five, you know, when we when we grow up. So we're still through an evolutionary change in society. And I think this generation is is sort of catching it now at this age when when they sort of my age, plus because because society is changing and is evolving in a very positive way.

    So I think I'm not at all surprised that this is a higher percentage at the moment because there's a lot of baggage historically that's coming through that potentially may be one or the other may decide to not connect with it. I've seen them in their childhood. And then when it's more level playing field and things start working out the better of both sexes, I have the same opportunities, the same salaries, the same freedoms. You know, there's not an emancipation either way.

    And then we can sort of just be human beings. I, I think a lot of people suffer like you were saying before, things that happen as a child about things that are going to happen later in life. And I think we're all carrying a lot of baggage from that. But it's good baggage because hopefully the next generations coming through, people like us and hopefully if we do have children, hopefully we'll bring them more level playing field. So it needed to happen.

    I was I was think about the Spice Girls. When the Spice Girls came out, I thought, well, how absolutely significant the Spice Girls were. And a lot of my friends used to kind of they couldn't get like, well, why Spice Girls so big all over the world? It's like it is literally girl power. You've got to understand the message they're giving. You know, it is the quality. And that was and that's a hard thing.

    That's a hard thing for the generation of a baby man to be challenged on what is being seen as their ground, because historically, you may have been brought up in an environment where things aren't necessarily and there are there are definite male roles and there are definite female roles. But, you know, society's getting smashed all over the place with with views of what men and women are becoming more human. Now, I think so. So I think like like this generations, we're privileged in a way to sort of sit back and see those changes coming through.

    But at the same time, if we don't for me, if I don't stop back sometimes and I'm taking all considerations, it can be very confusing because there seems to be a lot shouting from a lot of people and all sorts of reasons. But it's not surprising because things have actually changed along with that legislation. Right.

    I don't know if it was Janell's Vernick or Sibilia question.

    It's certainly not enough to. So when you say drop the power and force for me what it really means to power and force. It's it's a completely different level. And last year I started thinking about that for me force. It's all about when you try to control things. And let's be honest, we all got little too much. And that's actually using 90 percent of our energy. And the surprise surprised that we don't have energy. That's all about the force.

    You're just overheating. You're always having, you know, the answer for everything you need to have, answer for everything. Let's be honest. It's really true. It's bullshit. There will be all this one percent answer for everything and everybody do have right in their own way what it means for me. More like when you can step back and you can stand there. Even when the people will try to bully you, even those people will try to, you know, abuse you even a little.

    People will try to force and actually assault you or your team. And you still can be stender and standing up and just look at in the eyes and the person will move away after because actually with the power of silence, you defeat the person. That's the power. It's not what we all think the power is sometimes to not do anything, really. This will take place recently I had a customer in Saturday standing up ready to punch me. And I was just standing there, my eyes didn't even move a second.

    I asked him to move and leave the rest now before he got done. And, you know, straightaway everybody was more happy to see is the situation can handle when you don't need to actually do the punch and get all. My teacher was always saying when somebody. I have to go for the physical. Part, it's actually means it's mentally so weak it cannot defeat the other person by words and key, really.

    Sibila, I just wanted to add on what Robert was saying about misogyny and the patriarchal system in society. I feel like, you know, since the beginning of time, there were two two sexes and one oppressed the other. And like in like the caveman era, for example, it made sense because gender roles work in that time. But in today's society, I feel like men and women are supposed to complement each other rather than compete with each other.

    And society is a construct this man made. Maybe we can change this. So I feel like. When we walk into a meeting, for example, I don't want to be judged because I'm a woman or because I come from an ethnic minority background, I'd rather people judge me based on what knowledge I hold and how I speak and what I have to put on the table. So I feel like all these things should be secondary and the primary thing should be basic, fundamental human rights.

    It was only deemed illegal in:es Act. They only came out in:

    Why aren't we teaching people how to behave?

    I think there's a lot has changed. Because of different movements that are politically correct. But I think. They can they can cover up like hidden prejudices, so I think people learn the words not to say. Without actually having changed it. So I think so I think sometimes not not saying that it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that.

    When we see what we really need is for people to see. The stupidity of prejudice, the damage the prejudice does to them. And as people evolve. And I think this is really like the power of this force. I think what happens is there's a lot of. Like the whole camp, can the council culture where certain certain triggers create a reaction by equivalent triggers Don. And so there's there's this where, like people learn. So I think, like when we look at Brexit and Donald Trump.

    What that showed was that there are a lot of racism had been hidden. But it was still there. And so I think I think the movement, the movements and the like, the pressure is brings awareness. So I think at the moment you've got like the me too Black Lives Matter and the gender aspects are bringing awareness, but awareness is the first step. But it's really about when we start teaching in schools, about all the things that we talked about, about emotional awareness, all of those things that takes the the war out of it.

    Because I think what we have at the moment is a bit of a war. And there's a war, and so it's kind of. Men versus women. There's the all men vs. all women, but there is there's like the more that those the more that we. Like create the pressure for full change without bringing people along. What happens is then then there's like subcultures of men that become red pill theory and go underground with these. So I think in the 60s, America, you had like the KKK and all of these things that became more active as the civil rights changed.

    So I think there's one level is on awareness, but the real change is going to come with the emotional. Growing up, really, because what this really is about is emotional immaturity, and it's because particularly men have never had to deal with so like me as a as a white middle class male have not really had to deal with. The. You know, like the finger of white privilege, we haven't really had to deal with that, we've had society and everything slanted in our favor.

    But what is happening now to middle aged? Middle aged men is that. The world is changing and men are struggling to cope with that, which is why there's the high suicide level. So I think there's this I think we do have to push for awareness of change, but we also have to support the people. He kind of seemed to lose out, if that makes sense.

    So make sense, but also we are not good at explaining and helping people to accept change. Yeah, there is, as you see, a group of middle aged men who are quite, quite inadequate in dealing with some some some aren't even familiar with with using a computer properly and a smartphone to do all these things, you know, apps and online banking and all of those different things. And it's like you're talking a different language to them. And so they feel cornered by the various technologies.

    That's one. And then you're going to add other layers to that of change and it becomes quite overwhelming because then the world becomes an alien place and you think, OK, I go to the refuge of my home where I am king. And suddenly your wife says to you, although you're not where is left for me, I don't even have a man cave where I can be king of my domain. So I know where do I go. And therefore, if I find another male who is as angry as I am and feeling inadequate like me, then we joined forces, because then that will give us something to kind of bash the system and bash the wives who have decided that they are no independent and going their own way and and stuff.

    And therefore, you know, we are ignoring them. Which makes them even angrier. And we don't have a system that recognizes or enables them to do to even learn some of these things without their egos being damaged, because there's a lot of pride involved as well. You know, I can't be seen to be this kind of Neanderthal person who doesn't even know how to sit on a computer or, you know, whatever it is that the younger generation takes for granted.

    And I can't do it. Where am I going to go? Nobody helps me. And there is my wife. She's independent. She she's driving. She knows all of these things. She's face time and she's whatever. Zoom in. And here I am, you know, who am I? I've disappeared. Some angry.

    Yeah, I think it goes back to what you said about power vs. force, and we can't try and force change. Well, but it's it's real change is going to come when people are happier. And it's really because prejudice is really about someone who better. And looking for some someone else to blame. And who do we blame our partner in a relationship, we blame the others, and this is kind of tied up in the football tribalism because we.

    So, like. There's a kind of pride in a national identity, which is an artificial construct, and there's this idea that other people are different. Like not our family, not our community, not our country. And it's that. Breaking down of barriers that if we had like we've done well in our society of being so rich. But how do we allow children to starve to death in other countries when our food is rotting and we have so much and it's really about people below the line don't feel that they have enough?

    Sibila, I was just going to add on there's this. Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is a human rights activist and she says that the best she's got this TED talk and a book on we should all be feminists and then that she talks about how men are caged in this idea of toxic masculinity. Because for women, fortunately, we have platforms like Michelle Obama and etc. have created these platforms and safe spaces where women can go and talk about and bring awareness on mental health and emotional health and and the struggles we have as women in society.

    But unfortunately, men don't share the same level of platform. So men are told they're caged in this idea of toxic masculinity. They're told you are supposed to cry and are supposed to show emotions. You're supposed to be hard and look what one in and provide for your family. And I think that's why suicide rate in men is higher than in women, because they break into that because they're confused, because they're told you can't behave like a normal human being.

    So I think men need to have a similar platform that I called feminism as a movement and a strong something similar. And I just need to come from men so that they can open up and people can know it's OK to talk, it's OK to cry, it's OK to show emotions. This is all part of being human.

    I think we have to accept to that as society has got to reach out and there are more of us on the planet. We have become commodities within the system of production. And as a result of that, standardization becomes the norm. So when you're being educated in school, you are on a conveyor belt. You need to learn the various subjects that will enable you to fit into the production cycles of whatever it is that you are going to participate in to earn a living.

    And as you become more and more part of this automated system, what is being stripped away is humanity, your human, your human attributes, because that is variation. And what you need is standardization. And so it is with giving you the tools to perform, but it doesn't give you the tools to deal with how you feel. And so we grew up learning how to do things, but we do not learn how to express our feelings because that has been stripped out of everything.

    It's stripped away from the it's know because there's too much variation in that. How do you standardize that? How do you make that part of the production productivity? So it is on the side for the psychologists and the therapists and whoever it is to come in when there is an issue to be dealt with, not to equip people with the basic tools as part of their evolution. They're growing up. And I'm teaching them that these are your coping skills.

    So, yes, men and boys are not supposed to cry. You're supposed to be tough. But if you look at it, really, that's a cop out in a sense, because it says, if I tell you that and you behave in that way, all of the other things that you're doing, I don't have to deal with them. And so if the boy cries, oh, he's a sissy, you this what have you. And so we label.

    But we don't address the underlying issues, and so we are all ill equipped. I mean, this has been a little bit frustrating for me to hear because there are people with conceptual delusions talking about, oh, this is how it should be and we can change this and I is causing that. But let's start with the basic premise of what we have. OK, what do I mean by what we have? So we have a societal structure. There is a layer cake, there is a type of pyramid that exists, like it or don't, and there is room for change.

    But that starts with us trying to change the world. And look, I was in the pub last night watching England and I had to listen to a couple of really shitty remarks, which I just thought were from decades ago and, you know, unbelievable. But I didn't get angry. I didn't try to contest them. I didn't tell them what they ought to be doing. I didn't try to teach them to be a better human. I see a larger picture and it's something along the lines of.

    They did a test with rats and the rats in the shitty cage were were taking higher levels of morphine every day. The rats in a more pleasant cage who were able to have other rats to play with have toys. They still took the morphine in a much smaller dose. And in the same way, the the reaction to British people, to immigrants, the working class level is disdain, absolute disdain at the middle upper class level. They're saying welcome.

    I literally I have literally seen this in Bristol where people have held placards saying welcome, welcome to our country. So you try to understand that this is part of the internal structure which Jordan Peterson, like him or don't, does point to exists within our animal kingdom all the way down to lobsters to the top of the food chain. So if we can perhaps if we're not political activists, come away from a dream world of believing what it should be like this, it shouldn't be allowed.

    I'm going to be angry about it and tell other people what I actually just how we treat people like last night, no response from me to any racist comments, no kind of hatred. That's not going to help anything but carried on as they did. And they carry on and say, well, it's my choice how I respond to it and I react and how I deal with things. It wasn't directed at me, but still it was bad enough to hear.

    So, yeah, I hope if you can anything from that is that it's the cage that people find themselves in which can define their behavior and their attitudes are just going to ask if you have anything to share since you've been. Oh yeah. Well, just a few minutes ago, Rob, you said something like the relationship is set and then you were talking about the capacity. So as I understand it, the capacity is the person's ability to be sane, balanced, their emotional resources, and for them to deal with stress and to basically communicate openly, honestly and to meet you where you are.

    But then you're saying it's set. So if you meet someone and then say after the three month mark, the mosque starts to drop and you can see that they're insecure, but they're insecure and unaware. It's a question then of you responding to that information. Is it enough what you forget? Someone say they're avoidant and you're trying to communicate with them and they don't meet you very well and communicate openly and honestly, then that's the information you need to make a decision that is not.

    All I'm saying is how much of the ball is in our call? It's about us responding to what's in front of us, isn't it?

    Yeah. Okay, so what? So the capacity is generally how happy are you, how resilient are you, how able to cope with stresses and life events and still be at your best so you can measure that physically in HIV, like your heart rate variability is is like a measure of your resilience, physical and emotional resilience. Yes. So there's that. And it's also about psychologically, how well can you reframe things? How can you heal from her?

    All of those things generally. How positive, optimistic, all of that stuff that your capacity. So that's so ultimately, relationships are defined by our level of capacity because the breaking point of a relationship is when your capacity can no longer cope with the stress than the relationships creating. So when I say what I'm talking about is the conflicts that you're going to have is already set. You don't know what they are until you go through life and there's challenges.

    So for many people, it's when they have children because they've never come under as much stress. And that's when you find out different stuff about people. So. So. When so what I mean is. People are like icebergs, like you see the tip of the iceberg when you first known them. Some people might say, like, oh, yeah, I like children, I would like to have children, but 10 years later, the problems are in the way that I see parenting, the way that they see money, the way that they see sex, the way that they see to all of that stuff is.

    And it's not even that people are hiding in, it's that we don't know who we are, who we are is constantly evolving, constantly, we're becoming more aware. So the idea is, is that we have a blueprint. We have a blueprint of who we really are, like biologically, psychologically, emotionally. All of that is is there, but. Like, if that's the beauty of the statue, if you get rid of everything else, that would make that person to be the work of art.

    But it's all this other stuff like Clay that's all been piled on top, so. Most people, most of their beliefs don't come from them, and that's why we're talking about prejudice, its people have taken on cultural beliefs, because if something is truly who you are, it would be if you if you were brought up in New Zealand, Cambodia, Mexico, anyone that would be with you. But most like if you look at every culture is different and it's culturally different because of even the land.

    Or the the environment or the circumstances of that society that has created the beliefs, like the difference between Catholic, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, is to do with the circumstances of the cultures, the circumstances of where they were originated. So if Jesus had had been brought up in a Native American, it would be an entirely different religion if he was like Christianity is basically taking a few of the lessons of Jesus and put them into the existing Payden system that was already there.

    They've even changed his birth date for like the the pagan holidays, so. So when I say say, what I'm really saying is. It's it's all the hidden stuff. And it's someone's. Willingness to change, willingness to adapt. Like the chemistry of what's going to create that change.

    OK, well, then the part that's on us is that we should see what's in front of us rather than ignoring warning signs or red flags or being deluded. Yeah, and then we should have an honest response both for ourselves and for them. So we can in the example of someone who's not communicating openly, honestly and transparently, if they're not meeting this 50 50, then it's up to us to use that information and make a decision moving forward. What evidence they then complain about.

    Then there's something in that in that people are always community communicating and silence is is an answer.

    Yeah. Saying seems to be saying it's hard to do that, which I appreciate, but I think like. Like I said before, isn't that the point of this education? Yeah, because it's not it's not easy to tell people to f off, but at the end of the day, if they don't meet you halfway, what else can you do? I know they there and bang your head on a brick wall, can you. I do completely I do completely agree with you.

    It's just that if you're in the midst of a gripping attraction, that's chemical, that's powerful, that has so much hope and potential, but not looking at the stuff you can't see or if you can see it, you don't want to see it. And I've had a direct first hand experience of that. So that's why I'm sad. It's hard. I'm not just talking to my opinion. I'm saying literally first hand of that. And it's I don't know how well that's fair enough.

    But again, I mean, we all live and learn that we've all had the sort of the whole limerence thing. And I'm in love. But I think what we see when we step back afterwards is that it's one thing to feel emotions and lust or passion, but you have to look at the reality of the situation. And that's why I keep saying that's where this education comes in, because we're not naive now if you've already experienced it and lived it.

    And on top of that, you have this education. Now you have the actual insight. If you apply this education and you can't go into it with your eyes closed and not seeing the red flags.

    Yeah, yeah. I think and this is where we're also with feminism and all these movements is what they bring. When you have awareness, you can never go back. Like if you never seen something you always like ignorance is there hidden, but you just don't see it. But once there's like Qanun that you can't go back, then it's a choice.

    Yes. I would say to you, if you had you find yourself in the same circumstance again, you wouldn't respond the same way, would you, now that you've had the experience and B, you have this awareness of this education and that's the whole point, you wouldn't respond the same way about you moving forward? I honestly don't know. I hope so. If I'd be strong enough to turn my back on it or like Nicole says, you might have the hope that the person can evolve, which is a false hope of trying to change somebody.

    But the capacity that they may if you can see something in front of you and you know it's wrong and you've done it before, then now you're just kicking yourself, aren't you? I know, but it's the same as Rob talked about abusive relationships where people go back. There's just hope there's this fervent holding on. But all I'm saying is, is that the power intensity of attraction, be it physical, sexual or energetic or emotional, intellectual will and has the power to override you.

    But this is our work. Like you say, you are right. This is our work to overcome that and to perhaps put it down on paper pros and cons. But who does that when you're in the midst of something so powerful? I just I'm learning for many of us have had the heady, intense attraction relationship with the bad boy. You know, we love the bad boy, but we know that the bad boy is not good for us.

    And so we've got to leave the bad boy at some point. But why they are involved with that bad boy? Oh, it is bliss. It is. Yeah, but it's the bad boys are really a bad boy. And he's probably the point is, as you mature and you have this education actually attracted or finding the bad boy appealing to actually bad boys, very superficial. It's just I agree with you. But as Carl is saying, if you are in the midst of that attraction and even though your intellectual self is telling you that, you know, it's bad for you because it's not going to go anywhere, it is very difficult because of all of that, all of what do you think you are getting from it, even though you know that for a long term relationship this is a new girl, because those those bad boys are not here for their for the long haul.

    But it's like the difference between the hope of growing foods and eating junk food. After a while, you realize you can't sit there all day. You know, it's going to be bad for you. So what I'm saying is as a mature person. You start to make the wise decision and not not eat the cake and then feel sick because you know exactly that's what's going to happen, it's going to make you feel sick. I agree with you and you learn you learn to say no from the very beginning to move away because you know, that is not good for you.

    And that's all I'm saying, is that this education gives us the tools to do that. Yep.

    And it's really about as we become more aware and we refine our skills, that that becomes easy to do. But yeah, it is. And sometimes it's learning from the pain because there's like sugar has an attraction and. Until you linked the feeling of. Like this comes with a. But really, it's about like really a relationship journey, like other people are going to be who they are and it's how we navigate around them. The problem people have is they have what they want and like they have what they have, like two fixed points.

    And that's why people get stuck. But if you only have the fixed point of of ultimately what you want and then you can remain flexible among other people. But I just going to say, if you have anything to share, Betty, like all of your insights on what you've learned, because you have a great way of summing things up.

    I was saying when we were in the breakout room, the most powerful thing I've learned is to be authentic because I spent a lot of time being the people pleaser and walking on eggshells. And this is just in all relationships in general. But I really learned that the relationship, as we said before, it's about self disclosure and vulnerability and allowing them to have the possibility of hurting your rejection. If you don't take that risk, then don't know. So I really learned to be open and honest and vulnerable and not where that lost so much.

    And I really appreciate the message. You said it's not so much about the people, but the connection between the people. And that connection can only come when you have that self disclosure and vulnerability. So for me, that's been the most powerful thing. And I think that really relates to what we've been speaking to just now. When you when you like a Disney fantasy version or someone, you not actually being authentic to yourself. So I think it's about you being your authentic self and relating to them as a flawed human being rather than a perfect Disney fantasy and seeing them for who they truly are rather than who you want them to be or what the image you're projecting onto them, learning.

    I mean, I think that when you ready, everything dissolves anyway. And as long as you have resistance, as long as you have a reaction, it means you still have something inside you that is calling for that experience. I mean, that's what I find. And then whatever bitch says, it all comes naturally. You have the tools. You have this when when you really are ready that you don't need to let that experience in that relationship or any relationship could be parents and children.

    And that's when it comes automatically to that, you know, that nature will take care of it, whatever you call it.

    Yeah, I think that's that's something that's a really great point is sometimes we need to make a mistake a few times. And I think one of the things we need to do is not be afraid of the mistakes. The problem is that people find it difficult to heal. The problem is people lose themselves and they don't know how to pick themselves up. And I think the awareness and learning to get over a breakup, to learning to get over hurts, learning not to take the personally, not to hugs because.

    We there's a sort of scarcity mentality, the feeling that this person might have been the one there isn't anyone else who could be, and that panic creates the pain. And knowing that you are stronger than there is, there is so many people so easily to find other people that it isn't a problem of. Everyone thinks the big problem in the relationship is that if I just find this person is not the person is when you're ready for the person. And when you can do that.

    Then you, like everything falls into place, but it's not being afraid of making a mistake, not being afraid again, her not being scared to make a mistake, that ties into having a growth mindset as well.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's recognizing that mistake is not so. So the idea of growth mindset for anyone who's not familiar with current sex work is she talks about a fixed mindset and a growth mindset. People with a fixed mindset believe that if if they fail at something is because they're not good at it and so they don't tend not to try again. I tried that. And this is where people are like, oh, I tried relationships. I can't do them.

    People with a growth mindset recognize that the first time you do something, you might not do it great. But it's a skill to be learned. And people with a growth mindset believe that they can learn to believe that they can get better.

    That's what they do us to charge. Think about that, you fall down from the bicycle, what you do. You keep up and continue, you know, when I was thirty two, I went to the race for the triathlon and was swimming and was a bicycle, I went down the hill with like 50 kilometers per hour, some hull. The first wheel didn't reach the road, so I couldn't break. I was just heading down the road somewhere, somehow.

    Have you ever seen the guy get lunch out from the canyon? So I was launched out from the bicycle like that goes and they got my helmet opened. Go hell. I was counting the boots on my head for like probably 10 minutes. I was sweating. I was doing everything, you know, whatever possible. Did I make it straight? A bicycle? And I continued to tie it. Because I'm a buddy or I never give up. And that's all about you stand up and you continue, you didn't die.

    So continue and finish to try to look at the one hundred twenty seven position from the hundred fifty. But I still see Richard. Oh, my son.

    He's going for a bike ride with ShadowStats, explains Bit. Thank you, everyone, for sharing your opinions and sharing your insights and sharing your and just the honest level of sharing.

    Tell us what your biggest insight was to you and ask me such difficult questions. I think I think, as I said, this is really how much is due to capacity. I think I started off probably last year, probably heavily on relationship skills. And then realized that the skills were. Last year. I think last year when I started off these groups, it was about the relationship church that was the first meet up and I was looking at. The idea of a myth being run like the myth, but really for me, it's about how much is due to capacity and how much is the basic conflict between us being a human animal, living in an artificial world.

    So I think there is a basic. In conflict comes from that. The. We are born, biologically speaking, connection, we rather. Befriends we'd rather love than hate. But there is this. But in the artificial society, we have this need for status, we have this need for resources, and we have the need for the emotions that we want to feel the connection and. So in that context, like the game that determines how people will play.

    So if you want to look at football and rugby, it's the it's the rules is the values placed on it. The pressure put on it that determine the behaviors. And in the same way, it's the cultural limitations that create all of our problems.

    Those a lot. But thank you, Alan, to us. Rob. Rob, can you tell us about your relationship and how that's going to go? I'm just interested because obviously you've amassed this knowledge and then when you've put it into practice, let's say just let's just take say the last just last year. How how has it been for you? How have you enjoyed it? And can you tell us?

    OK. Yeah. So I would answer the question in terms of relationship journey, because it's like the whole message that I have is it's not about the relationship. So let me see. Last year so last year I was in a relationship and it was like one of those relationships where you realise. The person he thought it was and it's not a relationship that you want to commit to. So. So I left that relationship, and it's also an awareness of when you look back at see, so I talked about adding capacity and I realized with the pressures in my life.

    So, look, I'm saying people, but it's recognizing that really. For that, the level of relationship that you want, you need to have the capacity for it, and I realized that working on these ideas and sharing these ideas is a bigger focus to me because I'm also a carer for my parents and so I have Alzheimer's. So which was also situations in the relationship where it kind of came to the point where I wasn't. I think she recognized I wasn't committed or wasn't going to be in a position for I don't know when to really commit to it.

    Yeah. And so, yeah, it says recognizing. Being in a relationship also means giving, like I'm quite happy, I'm quite self-sufficient. And so being in a relationship means a level of being. Feeling like you're not giving that up or being in a relationship where you can still have that. So I was married and then kind of got married for a reason of. Because it's what you do is not really I wasn't I didn't really take enough and had reworked dating then, and I got divorced about 10 years ago and my daughters were nine and 11, I think.

    And I was like I had I looked after them in the week twice a week weekend. So in those ten years, like since then, what 11 years, I was always like I didn't want them to have a stepmom. So I was never really committed by I kind of learned dating and I thought would be nice to be with someone, and I suppose my last relationship was the one where I saw lives. Fun, fun to be in. But then, like my way, my daughters are now older and more adults.

    But yeah, my situation is that. I don't know really how long I can stay at this, you know, or when I'll be free to commit, so. That's really my relationship. It's quite a long answer.

    That that's brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah, great.

    But if you can phrase it as the journey and not the relationship because. Yes, because I think that's that's really important. I think we. There is so much societal pressure on the relationship, which is why divorce is seen as a failure, and I think it's a choice, the choice of being in a relationship. And I think there is seasons for being in and not being in a relationship.

    So know, when you say capacity, could you say emotional regulation or emotional intelligence instead? Is that what you mean? We haven't touched a person with their own emotions and how they respond to other people's emotions.

    And that's part of it. Yeah, I mean, like I said in my like, I recognize the demands on me at the moment, like the feeling I feel like with integrity that I need to responsibility. I need to take care of men. I recognize that I didn't I didn't have full capacity to be looking at the level of relationship. So there's that. Like the willingness to commit kind of thing, it's yeah, it's emotional intelligence and being able to cope with stress, resilience mindset comes into it, the lead time to time to get time to pay attention to the relationship, to give the attention that it needs.

    Yeah, but the capacity to. So the availability is well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, it's emotional intelligence, availability, all of that. It really is what determines a relationship.

    So with your parents as well, because I come across this a lot and I believe the same position, and you feel like especially if it's your parents, it's your duty. You know, it's now time to give your time back to those to give you time to you were younger and there is very much a long time. And there's only so much that you can stretch in so many different directions without not doing it for. Yeah.

    Yeah, yeah, is is is feeling like, yeah, is that OK? I've got a puppy that's Holderness Black. They were knocked out. So thank you, Yvonne, and hopefully see you next week.

    Yeah. Happy birthday to the group. Thanks, Rob. Thanks, everybody. What was it today, this week that we started or this is just now?

    Is it was was it yesterday? I think it was the 12th or the first night of philosophise tomorrow. It's tomorrow's anniversary.

    Well, you can all wish me happy. Belated birthday. My birthday was on the 9th. Oh, I'll be happy next year. Yeah, that's true.

    Did you have a good birthday?

    Oh yeah. My son took me as a surprise to get my fill of water and beach and sand, and I was in seventh heaven.

    Everyone I buy have a good week.