What makes relationships so difficult for most people?
We took a different perspective on answering the perennial question and had a deep and fascinating conversation.
Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the past, helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. In the breakout rooms, you were looking at the other things that we value in life and all the resources that we have to to obtain marriage. So I'm just putting the link in the chat, and that's a document where we can fill out the resources, the things that we value. Anyone can add to that what we're chatting.
But in the meantime, what kind of things did you come up with on your list? I list. Well, honesty. Trust. And communication security, respect, we have finance, friends, relationships, family and romantic employment or life purpose, mental health, emotional stability, happiness. We didn't we didn't get anywhere near resources.
OK, that's a good risk.
Fairly comprehensive if you want to have anything else on the values of something. But it was quite important. Sorry. Contentment. Yes. Contentment of anything else over human money, which is I mean shit ancient companionship. I'm making a social connection. Yeah. Well I think the to say sorry respect. Respect was another one was. Yeah. So yes apparently. Yeah.
It's been apparent compassion, flexibility and tolerance now switching on the resources and that's the same resilience. Yeah. And money. Energy and persistence, I think there's a slight bit of vagueness in this because we're referring to internal and external resources. So, yeah, that's quite a distinction that you could have two very long lists. I think this is going to be challenging and provocative, and that's why I'm really wanted to do this, because I think it's very challenging to the way most people think about relationships.
OK, so you can carry on adding to those lists. But I'm going to go back into the breakout rooms, so this is going to be a quick. A quick fire break out room five minutes, and what we're looking for is the top five values. Ranked Bodemeister life what one, two, three, four and five. So what you're looking for is when if you say money, no one really wants money because everyone wants money, but what they really want is what money brings and what is money really meant to mean, freedom, security, just safety.
So when what you're looking at is a group, when someone says something always is, then to go, why do you want that? And so you want you want something like happiness, love, health, freedom, those kind of things. And that is if that makes sense. Exactly. OK, so I think that's everyone back. So we have a spokesperson from Group one.
That's what says to me, microphone for no work working now. A, I don't think we kind of fit, so I'm just looking for Steve. And there is so I don't want to whether Steven wants to help a bit because I was having microphone problems and maybe it was our understanding of the question is maybe how we started it was to say, is it something you want and you have a goal or something or is it something where I could say I feel it's really important that I've got lots of money and I may already have lots of money.
So you may disregard that one, but. It might be something you've already got that you still put in that status. You say I'm in really good health, but underclass that wasn't born OK. And so the way I refer back to as well, what you can answer that question is I referred to Maslow's hierarchy as well. Okay, so so security just for the sake of everyone. I'm not sure I can remember or ends in self actualization, and I've got it.
So it's physiological, physiological needs, which is kind of your basics, food, water, warmth and safety, security and safety that you two first days of basic needs, that you've got your physical logical, which is intimate relationship with friends. You've got a Staib is the full feeling of accomplishment. And then you final tear is self actualization achieving your potential, including being creative or creative activities. OK, so I don't know whether it was some people might say, well, you know, you don't realize what you've already got or what some people possibly have a life.
Well, you know what? Maybe things we take for granted. I've got really moments. I've got food in the freezer and that's important to me. But maybe might just be able to group that a bit and say, I want the basics.
First trip to Israel. I'm going to talk from Coté. Yeah, I would talk we would say financial security, health bill and politics. And we don't we want to oneself free. Yeah. And also somebody say publication of political connections.
What about group free these groups. Right. Then ask the difficult questions for any. Was your group what they Nicole, Nicole, Betty and then Sam that connection. Conexion. OK, we also have financial freedom, OK? What did you have? His number one financial freedom was probably sold. Proposed is number one and then connection and companionship. We also got health in there as well. Where did you put that in brackets next, the next election?
Oh, so that's like I can't make a decision.
So I'm just going to put brackets and then I would read them as number one annexion. We have a train of thought for that, but I can't remember. Compassion, trust and respect as health says, health off the connection. Yeah, yeah, when it was kind of companionship, connection, sex and health. I figured out that sex is about connection, which is why we boiled it down to Connexions. However, when a good sorry, starting with the watershed that we're discussing now, I would say I would put that the same as the physiological needs, like you had said.
So because when you look at this is really an instinctual drives, it's like hunger, OK, we all see that's what we think that we're meant to do, is to procreate, which is why everything boils down to connection.
Ultimately, we're just looking to fulfill that one goal and to have the freedom to do so. So freedom and then connection and then health, which is mental health and physical health, because if you don't have mental health or physical health, then you're not in a position to pursue that connection yet, not dependence.
So what was next was talking about a growth mindset, being content and having a growth mindset and self actualizing. So probably self actualizing mindset is there to his way of being that's going to lead you to it probably rather than go say, OK, that sounds good. Thank you. Group for which is we've had this. We'll go back to group one, which is Ellie RJD and Gina and Steven. Steven the. OK, so for me, it was something I said trust to start with and then honesty, and then I said, you have.
And because obviously if you haven't got, you have. I don't I don't think you can do much if you haven't got your health. So it's an important one. And then to make financial security. That's interesting. So we've had finance as a last group. It was freedom and security, which is interesting. John Gottman talks about he asked people what they meant by money because it's one of the big fights. And he thought that having one hundred definitions of what money meant, freedom, security, all of these things.
And sorry, what was the last one? I don't think I don't think that was our excuse. Thank you, Carl. Carl. Fayrouz. Sarah Stephania. OK. Oh, we didn't actually put them in any sort of order. However, we did have. Integrity, sweetness. We'll see everyone's adaptability. Yes, that's true. No. Can anybody else help me get to. Um, yeah, come on, budget, honesty, much honesty and respect.
OK, thank you, Stephen. We'll get to you and then we're going to do something quickly. The thing that occurs to me is that perhaps what's missing is, I mean, self actualization is an ideal state. So it's working towards the realisation of what's missing, perhaps plans and goals. Yes, that might be what we're looking for is the end goal. OK, so what we're looking for, like what do you really want in life? What what do you want to feel?
So this is not so much not what you want in a relationship, not what you want, but what your life about. What do you really want to feel? What state do you want to be in in life? So I'm going to set a timer for two minutes. And this is how quickly before we go. That's right, quite soon afterwards, okay. Okay, so timidness. And this is personal. So this is just for you to think you don't have to answer.
We're not going to discuss it. But for you to think, what are the three most important things that you feel like when you when years from now, when you're lying on a deathbed, you're hundred and twenty and you've lived a full and wonderful life. What are the three things that you're going to be most proud of, most pleased that you've achieved? What other states what are the things that are really going to matter to you? As you look back on the past of your life.
Does that make sense to everyone? How's that how is that different question? Well, the initial question isn't really, but we know there is this is just because we've had all these different words and different people have different things and it doesn't really matter what anyone else is. This this was just about getting consensus and warming up to that. But this is about you personally. What really matters to you? Like two minutes? What is this supposed to be?
Something that we have achieved or something that we would like to achieve.
So it's really looking at what do you really value? What will make your life? Like happiness, is it love, is it freedom? So it's quite difficult, but it is what your life really about.
Yeah, sorry, I just met some. Are you are you have to think about what we have achieved in our life or what we would like to end up having to do. Yes. What do you really value? You may have achieved it. For example, health, if you really feel health is poverty or freedom or have interests. Anyone who wants to share home how many people had love or companionship or something. I use the word connection. Yeah, I'm sorry, Gina, I can't yeah, because this is an exercise that somebody made me do like five years ago.
They made me sit down and create a mission of what I wanted to be. And so they were like, when you're lying in bed or in your death or in your grave, what would you be proud of? What you'd like and coincidence? It has three things. So here it goes. My mission in life is I get to Kitty. I choose to live a positive, balanced life to to apply ethical principles in all that I do and try to help others achieve self-worth.
And do you find that slavery changed? I find that during my difficult days, it actually help me move forward because every time I reflect on it, it kind of acts as a guide on what I want to do, because for me to be able to change somebody's life, I need to be a better version of myself. So how do I do that? By helping others, I become better. That sounds like you serving you well. So far, so good.
I got a question to ask by helping. By helping others. You. I mean, my question to you is, I mean, because I do this I do this all the time, I'm always concerned about helping others, but I always. My question is, where do you get what you get left in all this helping? What what happens what happens to your needs when you are helping others? You know, all your needs for whatever it is you need being fulfilled and satisfied?
Or are you sometimes or are your needs sometimes? Left to one side or do they get trampled over or something, because very often I find I'm giving so much to the people that I don't want to make my saintly in some way because I'm not. But sometimes I just feel I'm giving so much that there's nothing left for me. And and then that leads to all sorts of feelings of despair and unhappiness. And so am I. That's my question to you.
When I started, I thought that I forgot one of the most basic principles about helping others. The problem with us is that they don't know. They don't have a limit. And so one of my mentors told me, you have to give your overflow. So what does that mean? I have to begin with the ending. I need to understand what can I do for the individual so that I don't fall for that which I have been given by God.
You devise whatever is out there to help me move towards the next step. For example, I am not going to use my rent money to give somebody to pay for their school fees. No offense, I need a place to stay so that I can have safety and security. We found out that the education is more important, but now I came to realize no. I can offer them maybe a piece of advice on how to fish and get that money by giving them other avenues on how to be financially stable, but I'm not going to give them that cash so that they need to understand.
You need to be able to give your over and to do that. Obviously, they need to begin with the end in mind. What resources do I have and the safe? My able to give people more. Then once you create that balance, it shouldn't be hard because family members will look at you and be like, oh, she's not thinking that she's too rich to help us. I suppose she has become too stubborn to help. But at the end of the day, you will cater for your needs and you will be able to get the food they need.
You're going to be able to cater for them and to create a balance. You don't want to be in a situation where you resent somebody because you give them too much love or too much resources and left you with absolutely nothing. I hope I answered your question. So just just to add a different perspective on what we're really talking about here is currently. So and sometimes people. The offended, if you talk about love as being a currency, but everything that we do, we do for a currency.
So we do it because we want to feel generous. We do because we want to feel love. So when when we get tired, like when we give to other people and then we feel exhausted is when we're giving money. If you give money, you've only got so much. Even if you're Bill Gates, there's only so much that you can give. That diminishes you, but when you give something like empathy or compassion or kindness or love. It's something that when you give you actually grow from.
So if you're giving someone. And feeling tired and drained and bitter from it, then what you need to look at is why are you giving? Because often we're giving because we think we should we give in because we want to feel or we won't, we we're giving for some of a benefit. So what you really need to look at is what are the currencies? And then when we know why, we do what we do. We know whether it's sustainable or not.
When you say currency, you mean look at what you're getting back when you give us. How are you getting your needs met?
Yes, sir. This is what we're really going to talk to now. But first of all, on the first bit of this is just really to challenge everything that you think. So. The things that we want, so we exchange. What we have our resources. In order to get what we want, say the most common one is we go to work and we give our time and we give our energy. In exchange for money. So that's a simple one.
But many of the things that we do. Other than that, they're not clear. So the first exercise for this is we're going to go super quick, five minutes into the breakout rooms. And I want you as a group to be social scientists and social scientists. Your job is, which is your job, is to put a figure like no money. How much is lasting love worth? In money. OK, everyone. I repeat that again, but what I'm asking you to do is, as a group agree, I figure an amount of money lasting love is worth the cost.
A quick question. In the instance that you're saying, how much is it worth? If I only had to tell the bank, Bob said it's worth three thousand pounds. And how have that is it?
And what you're willing to pay for it?
How much is it worth? Like a price. Like if it was something you could buy in a shop. What's the price that you put on it? OK, so you're looking at how do you justify that, how do you come up with a figure like sense? Because this is what social scientists do all the time, like put prices on intangible things. So look at how can you justify it? What is the value that you can bring to it and how much?
OK, say five minutes. I put it up with the Viscount Redesdale. OK, before we get into numbers, what I'm really interested in is. What did you how did you feel and what did you think without coming up with the numbers? What was your reaction to the task? So love is not a commodity. That's what I thought. Love is not a commodity. I didn't say it was a commodity. No, but it's not a commodity.
How can I price it? It's a currency. Yes, but let's take. How can I. Does it have a boundary? Does it have boundaries? You know? How do you therefore put a value on this thing if you can't put boundaries on it? It's not a commodity for trading. It is, in my definition, the most desired thing in the universe among us humans, therefore. Well, as far as I'm concerned, it's priceless when I'm with you.
So we were in different groups and I've heard you say this before. But when when you announced the thing to me, it's not. It's not a quantifiable it's not a quantifiable question, and I said in my group that. I just don't see. Love and relationships hidden through that prism, that's not I don't see it as being. It quantified through a contact lens or through a quantifiable prism. And so. Somebody in our group mentioned the word price and Sandra just mentioned the word priceless, priceless.
And, you know, kind of, if you like, priceless. But to put a number on it, I couldn't do the. OK, anyone else? I first heard it, I thought, how dare you, Rob, for a price of love, was disgusted by what we actually found, was looking at it from a different angle, which is you pay the price day in, day out by choosing to love somebody, by giving tolerance, patience.
These are the costs of real long term. Anyone else before we go? I just said, I think it's lidded maybe I'm a bit of what Carol said, we we paid the price, not just military terms. I said in our group were willing to commit time, effort, body emotions is a lot. But that's the price we pay and that's what we're willing to pay. The amount of, I believe, LB Bob might be willing to sacrifice, I might say, three days a week at the moment.
But, you know, some people might be able to sacrifice six days a week, but that's the prices we're willing to pay. This is about time we went in for people who are willing to pretend to have that unconditional love, all that want to know a final relationship.
And can up with the everlasting love was priceless.
But the task force you have to have a number was the of the money that I just finished, all the money and all the money and all that. I don't I don't see it through that prism. I don't think I could do that. OK. Was there anyone who did come to any group that did come up with. No, but I may. OK, I am the way the way that I find you did not strictly monetarily, is that I would value it is society values if we're talking about a loving relationship rather than just love, because love is has different meanings in different situations.
But in terms of a long term loving relationship, a committed relationship, it's half of everything that you have and will have and it's everything that you can give. That's how I would value it. So in terms of financial, then you'd have to look at what what you're bringing to that in terms of what half of everything that you have or could have equates to. I would say that you're looking at something in excess of half a million pounds. I struggle with this drug because I think I hear what Stephen says, but but Hoffman, that's that's how the law in this society values.
Relationships that break down this time, the law can change and societal values can change, and the valuation of half of everything excludes the possibility of things like prenuptial agreements. If we talk. If we're talking about money in those terms. So I kind of struggle with that as well. OK, can you just suspend your belief for a moment? OK, so what I really don't want to get at here is that we're talking about the game of love.
Like you said, a game has an end result some way that you win. It has rules which really limitations because the limitations of any game are how you have to use your creativity, how you have to make good choices and how you use skill. And often the limitations are in your resources. So if you if you were in the business, the way that you make good decisions is by having things quantifiable. So if you know that something is going to cost you 50 pounds and it's going to gain you or save you one hundred pounds.
It is quite clear cut choice, isn't it? So relationship decisions, most people make bad relationship decisions because they don't have any clear cut choices. Because if something's nebulous and something's unquantifiable and priceless. Then. How do you choose that over something else? Now, all of us in our relationships, we've chosen being right, we've chosen money, we've chosen control, we've chosen power, we've chosen laziness, we've chosen lust and excitement. We've chosen the tension over love.
So we're all the time making these decisions. Because if. If we have that, if we use all our resources and we really do think that love is priceless and love is the ultimate, then we don't put anything in front of that. So anyone who is looking for a life partner or has been looking for a life partner. Why haven't you? Contact your network of friends and ask them, who do you know, why haven't you put a poster up on a wall like in town saying, I'm looking for the.
So let me ask you this book to my friends that I to say hook me up. I see. Because you really don't want to be hooked up with the people I know.
I read it. I don't mumble, which I did. And for that reason, I exhausted by my. Time out. I have lost communications, so not like you don't like communications. So that we have it right, we have that. We found out that we require more resources to eat and they give blood.
Most of this over the last couple of years is the guy who put himself on a billboard either to do the for a job offer a day. Just got it a day. Like put his photograph text message.
I had Gary had to write a full page ad in The New York Times or something like that. Some of the American papers.
And he had I'm not sure whether somebody's a hideout or a billboard for a job offer, a relationship like that in Manchester.
I just want to know if you did, you'd have loads of times. But what I want most people to. I'd say some fear and some advancement, some afraid of taking that leap, and maybe that's probably life that some people say my base still bring to bear. How many women in this group have made the first move on them?
Yeah, that's not all you know, is it always or is it still up to the man to man up first move and say he can ask me for a drink.
I'm afraid to make up for me even if I'm out for a drink and do something that puts a lot of men off.
Some people haven't got that much courage to say, well, I wouldn't give me, but but I but I think, you know, we've we've kind of moved into the world of, you know, we moved into an online world in many respects. The that it doesn't matter when you think you're in a bar or if you're in a workplace or social situation, it's one thing to go up to somebody and say, you know, you can go and have a drink on one night in the wake of coffee or something.
I think in a way that is difficult. And I think it's, you know, speaking personally, I still find it very difficult to do. But I don't really go out now at all and.
And then just say, let's go and have a drink sometime and it's going to be some time, and I think, you know, now with with with the online world in which in which we live, I think. I think it is, you know, Judy, you might disagree, but I get the sense that it is more it is easier for four women to approach men because there isn't a there isn't the you know, it's just it's a two dimensional it's a two dimensional transaction.
I think if you don't ask, you miss out on those opportunities because they have no right to pursue you that he was put off.
Do you think the man should pursue you because you say when you watch the man out, he was put off? Yeah, but I also think if you don't ask, you don't vote no. So they could be as frightened to see what gets you to ask. So if so, so ultimately, if he was really interested in you, wouldn't he pursue you because he's the one? Well, this is the result as well. I hear that all the time, that if someone's interested in you, they will chase you.
Because if if the man is the hunter and you pursue you naturally, it's probably there. So I know where the man is. This is the going to look at the chemistry of vibes and you can kind of pick up subtle details or there is the same woman's chase, the moon. What do you think I want to tell you on the playground, which is interest like I mean, if this smiles and shows an interest, that helps.
Yeah, but when the woman smiles at you or drops a handkerchief, as it was, she saying here was an invitation and you come over used to pursue her. You are the man. You all the hunter. But do we have to do we have to still stick to old stereotypes and rules this way, engage people on the planet? How many of them will given birth to by a man? There's a natural order of things. Actually, I think there is something that we have observed just for me, it may not be the same for everybody, but I find that there is an etiquette that women.
That women learn and for this to work, we have to break out of that some of what Betty has alluded to, which is, you know, the expectation that the men will come forward. But at the same time, I ask you the question or initiate the conversation. But on the other hand, I find that many men do not know how to respond to a woman who will ask them to initiate the conversation. I don't know if they misread it.
They are taken aback. They are in shock that they are being asked. And so the response. I think it's something that men could possibly. Learn to respond to it now in a way that encourages us to come forward. I want to say something. I'm actually from throughout my whole life and experience usually I think it depends on the guy from the phone, pretty much ninety nine point nine percent type feels will never, ever make the first move ever.
It's always the guy. And I'm an experienced. I've never had a pill. Approached me, asked me going out with me unless I initiate the French move. And usually when it's social media and social media online, everything goes up, all the advances, guys, not so much. So it's like. It's always it's always the guy that was asked to do anything and also put himself on the line because he knows that. What it is, is still going to be there's going to be a very high chance you're going to get you're going to get rejected.
There's going to be a big mass rejection. And when you put yourself out there. So we have from a personal experience, I would not always the guy never to go back to girl, OK, but I have to hide that.
If somebody is so sorry, I'm just starting out, would you prefer that it's that way that it is the God it pursues, or are you saying that you would like the girls to pursue you? It'd be nice to be a 50 50, but it's not what I want to say. I said, I want to see a big country be there, speed up, but I'll let you watch it when you I've heard that before in the past. When you see all that, go watch it.
And then it's always me that puts myself out there to do it. And and in return, I don't get anything. I don't get anything back. Let me just ask you this tariff, if someone if it did come up and it was a bit of a shock and then it did come up and ask you, how would you react? Because I think from what Ghedi said, I think it's more that a man's life or than they have to deal with it.
I don't know what to say rather than it puts them off to me for me until I feel what I appreciate it. I feel in that moment, in that moment when you asked, would you know how to handle it or would you be like, oh, no, actually, I don't feel I feel very appreciate it.
If it happens to me, I feel very I feel very good. So I'll I'll feel fine. That was it. OK, the first steps been done for me. I wanted to do too much work and then I can just once it got past at this stage I can just. That said, I'm still trying to get done talking about where the money has to, men need to learn that there's a response that will encourage something to happen or are not to turn that woman off.
I'm at a party and everybody, if you have been here for a long time, you know, I love to dance. I go to parties and I want to dance. And I will go up to a man and I would say, would you like to dance? Or I will just say, come on, dance with me, you know? And there would be frozen, like literally frozen and I know.
OK, fine, that is OK. But I have not been a drag. I have been very friendly and it's like. They're in shock because they going you're going against the natural order of things. I don't think you I don't think the natural order I think you saw, I think, is that men gave themselves up to ask a girl. And if they haven't gave themselves up and it's suddenly like, oh, and everyone's looking and what do I say?
And so I think there's that pressure, really.
But I'm only I only want to dance. I don't want to go to bed with you. I don't want you for my husband. And I don't want anything. I just want somebody to go on the floor and it's like it's like a deer in the headlights. It's unbelievable. And that's what I'm talking about, that I think men have become so unaccustomed to being on the receiving end because they have to be the protagonist. And that's the mode that they're in.
That's what you're talking about, you know, and so it's very difficult to make shift in mindset to say, OK, instead of would you like to dance? Oh, yes, I would like to dance that different. Or they could just be like me and dance.
I don't care.
OK, so we're going to move to I know there's stars, Stephen and Janice. I don't know if you still want to speak. So Steven. And then we're going to move on to how do you like how could you put a figure on love Steve enough in your first. Okay, so in answer to your original question, why don't you ask all your friends and put it out on a billboard? Is that the reason is fear of rejection? And if you're going to go that public and make it that obvious to everybody, then your fear, your rejection is so much greater.
So if you did everything you could and advertise to everyone and you still to get anyone, then, hey, that's really bad. And then the second point is, is the is the pain of the process. OK, so I think we are in a confused social situation. And what we have is we have a battle of the sexes where we have work. Women who say men have to do this, men need to be like that. I went out with somebody last year and I called her a feminist because she would come up with everything that she possibly could.
That was you know, this is a patriarchal world. You know, your mansplaining every and she's a very clever lady. And she just did it every conversation, every every moment. She fucked me up last week on Thursday. And I went to see her on Saturday, the day before. She was like, well, you haven't contacted me. Do you really want to come and see me? And when I went to see her, I had the whole the whole two barrels for two hours of the whole story all over again.
And yet she is somebody who does want she genuinely does want, I think, type of relationship. But she's fallen into this habit of criticizing men. And I think it comes from affair. There's a there's also a fear on both sides. So when you're getting into that situation, while you're dating you and you might and I have met somebody not that long ago who I thought, yeah, this could really work. And we both felt that. And I don't expect to ever hear from her again because she has that fear of actually getting into a relationship because she hasn't been in one for a good long time, several years.
So the process of dating is a painful process. And I think especially for men and especially in a situation where women, instead of looking at it and saying, hey, what I want is a relationship. And that has. A huge value for me, but it also has a huge cost for both. They look at it is what what what justifications, what what can what reasons can they find not to have a relationship? So they're they're an issue.
They're picking and choosing. They feel like there's a big pick this year. They can pick and choose who they want because everyone that everything that they want is available to them when it does come along. And you're in that situation where you could be starting a relationship, you could find somebody that you do really get on with. They start to look at reasons not to do it. And you do have a small number, shall we say. But there is a more common factor of this WOAK feminist attitude of girl power.
And girls are best. The men aren't good enough and it's down to you and it's down to them to find fault and basically sabotage the situation. So it it genuinely is a painful process. And that's that's my experience.
That's. The quick point, two quick things is I think the people won't do the billboard thing because of fear of rejection, but maybe that's similar to why people will approach people to believe people have that fear of rejection. We need both sexes to get over that, because I think it's Judy said that sometimes if you don't ask, you don't get a bit interested. Never could ask the question to the board. So I think to the ladies, though.
And how many people have made the first move? The family would do again. Be interested, even arrays of items like, yeah, we've got 10 people that have done it and already people will do it again.
OK, so you can use reactions to raise your hand. If your camera's not on, if you camera's on, you can just put your hand up. So all the ladies, how many have made this estimate?
OK, how many of that was online and how many was OK, how many was in person?
But I think you're right.
I know people say that there's a hunter and a certain rose, I don't disagree. I think you can break all the rules, Rose. I don't think there are many. I think the thing is that for a lot of men, it's like you have to give yourself up. And if you're not in that gay marriage law, then I how to handle it. So but I don't think it puts men off. So I can you show of hands from the men and it can be reaction if you can resolve who would be put off by a woman making the first move.
Who would be happy for a woman to make the first major? OK, so. I think that's your evidence, right? Did you have a quick point, Mike, before we move on? Yes, actually, quite nicely. That's the thing. What I think it's people more afraid about, not about failing. It's about what if it's working out that relation, but if it's success because we all good what we see. So all of us, we good on it that you and all this over the time.
We just don't know how when it's actually started working, because we are very down to getting to that point and that's why we are self sabotaging ourselves. Two of our very harsh self reflections. So many people, they are very harsh with themselves inside, they are can be so kind with themselves inside of their egos. Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's a big thing and. I mean, I fear that fear the. Rejection will ever manifest itself in lots of different ways.
OK, so I want to move on so that we can look at really what we looked at there was. Really, the barriers to dating and to getting into a relationship are things like pride, a fear of rejection, fear of not knowing what to do. And I think I think Janice picked the big one become one of the things that women often talk about is being guided by men. And I don't understand how often you will get on. Great.
And often the ghosting. Happens. And the person who's been arrested, like what was wrong with me? And oftentimes they get ghosty, they someone, because they feel that they're going to be found out. So they've put on a show of who they are. And then when it gets a little bit more serious, they realize and they have to show up or be exposed or show up is who they really are. And rather than. Had a lot of pride, loss of face is they just disappeared.
OK, so. Right. So in terms of how do you how do you value a relationship and the reason. So this helps us get some information. This helps us put. As my told me, this puts so in order to make choices, we have to so we have certain resources, so we have whatever cards we've been dealt with, whatever. Look, we've got a high personality, all of these things. Where we start from. And so.
Bing, bing, bing six as a man is going to put you like certain people are going to take you out, not having a certain intelligence or whatever may take you out more. So it's about how do you use your resources? And that's about how do you make decisions, because what we talked about in terms of dating is the decisions you make, determine the results that you get and fees and things that confused mean that we were not able to make the decisions that help us to win as opposed to not is really about winning, but in terms of the game of game we want.
So if everyone was really, like, super serious, really wanting to find a partner. A billboard out, they put an advert out or they spent more time fighting on dating apps, or they spent their time in learning how to do really well in how to build relationships. People don't do that and people have oh, I'm not going to pay for that, I'm not going to pay for this. And so. That's really about because there's a lot of assumptions of men should do this, every relationship should go like this, all of these things, flawed assumptions, become barriers in the way of asking what we want.
So, OK, so I look back in life is free three goals. The first is to feel like you've used your strengths in some way that you can survive and even thrive. So as in, you make a success of your life in whatever way that means. The second one is to love, to to love and be loved, to find belonging. And in the third one is to feel that your life matters, find some meaning for your life so that you feel at the end how that you feel that your life was well lived.
So really. Wealth and love are equivalent, wealth gives us freedom. It means that we take care of all the physiological needs. It means that we have shelter. It means also that we feel some sense, like we've brought some value to the world. So if you look at the average wage is thirty one thousand four hundred sixty one. And if you look at people working for maybe forty seven years, that means that you can price or love it as equivalent to being successful about one and a half million.
Now, if you look at what's the average household spend, what's the average average household spend, so running the car is four and a half grand for recreation. People pay for in half rent. So restaurants, hotels, people pay two and a half percent. So all these things, like even clothes and shoes, is like twelve hundred pounds. So if you really value love. Is that Sharon in the way that you? Spend your money when we look at so when we look at so we will look at love in terms of finances.
Most people pay what is it like for four months salary or an engagement ring? The average wedding is thirty two thousand. So why, yes. The average wait in his 20s, the but who spends anything on preparing for the marriage? He spends anything on. Like making sure that the marriage works or the relationship works before it comes to the time we should, we can see a counselor or a therapist before there's a problem. I think it really shows you how.
People value because if you look at how people spend their money, it's what they value. So people will talk about relationships and love being priceless. But that isn't the way that they spend their money. And so when you spend your money because you're making a micro decision on how you feel and so people bokha time for data that people. Feel that that's a luxury. Which shows does that make sense, like how how the decisions you make today show what you really value?
And so we might. So from a logical brain, when we're sitting there thinking about it and calm and relaxed, we say that it's priceless, is worth everything when we hit in the heat of an argument. Are we really valuing love or are we valuing being right in the argument? So. Yeah, when you look at cost divorce, Steven said it's worth half of what you gave, but I would argue that it's worth double. Because if you're single.
Because the loss of a relationship is half of what you want, but the if you. If you're single and someone like equivalent, you've established a household income, you've but it's not just that, it's. On average, when a couple are unhappy and someone's decided to leave a marriage. They take cues from figuring out how this to actually leave those six years, what's it costing you in stress, in comfort, eating in all of these other things?
In effect, in your work, performance, creativity, all of those things. So. Yes, it's really what's the cost, what's the cost of feeling bad because you don't have it and what's the cost of having it? And so that really comes down to micro decisions of the ability to deal with the ability to overcome the fear of rejection, the ability to put yourself out there, the ability to learn what it takes. And so everyone I'm talking to here has the time.
And this is like the leading edge of people. But there's a whole lot of other people that are expecting relationships without ever giving any formal dedication or work on making them happen. So it's one more thing I want to go through, which is almost like. So what would you say is the most valuable resource you have? Time, that's one for me, it's. I agree with the time because, you know, some of it is bad, but, you know, they might not be able to logic.
So the most valuable time. But then again, like some people, they've got three or four children who haven't got much of a very demanding job. So they might not have much time either. So, yeah.
Yeah, I was going to say there are times inconsequential. Surely it's it's the most valuable thing as you haul it on a bad time. A good time.
Yeah. But when you haven't got any hope left, the point is that once more time is gone, everything else is gone with it. That's what time is literally the most valuable resource.
OK, so I just want to disagree on this. Time is not the most ideal. I am the most valuable resource because if I'm not here there is nothing. That's a good point. So how do you mean health is not about health. It's about me, because at the end of the day. It's a combination of who I am as an individual, like I told my group there, that if somebody asked me apart from yourself, what else can you bring?
And that question brought me back to me, what am I doing as myself to make myself a very important person, my eating right and my exercising, my reading, my self improving.
Yeah, but think about the last day of your life when you finally run out of time. Exactly. We not have enough time. Exactly. I will not be here. So the most important thing is me and ensuring that I'm living my truth. And I have this Negin, but I will call it the drive to drive, to learn and to grow. And learn what life is like time, if you don't want to learn and you think whatever time you have, it doesn't really help, you know, to advance.
And you were actually getting it right. OK, I think. There is I think we can refine this, so when you say you look like the most important person. What you mean is. How you'll be the quality that you'll bring into your life. Exactly, because I am OK for me, what I understand is that relationships are in three stages. Stage number one, what can you offer? I love you because you give me money. That could be one.
The second one is what can I give you? But that one is where I learned that I'm the most important thing. Why? Because I am enough. I am here to serve you and you're here to serve me. And together we can build something important. So we might have all this time 100 hundred years and still be miserable like, OK, he didn't take care of ourselves. OK, we I just want to clarify, because what it seems to me what you're talking about is what is the angle?
What is the thing that's most valuable? So what are we talking about here is a resource because this resource is how do you achieve that? I'm sorry that you used the resources is how you all feel yourself having your best self. And so what we're talking about is time being the way that you achieve that is. In how usual time to yourself, I'm not agreeing with that being the most, I think that even for a person, it's the ability to learn.
As a resource is the ability to learn and to apply what you have learned, to aim, to improve your condition. And in that improvement, that is also improving your capacity to love and be loved. OK, is is that I'm thinking that time is the union of how you do these things, but I think, OK, I think time is the framework. I don't think it is an individual resource because it's common to all. That is what everything is happening.
Everything is happening within a time context. OK, so that is that's that's what you do call that the constant in the equation. Yes, we all have that. But the individual I think what you have is the capacity to learn and to improve and to apply that that that that information, that knowledge that you acquire. OK, improvement for self or for a relationship? OK.
I said I was wondering because I came in late, but I was wondering what you said about time. I was thinking all the time is important, but is it not sort of the I think the most important thing is that the the connection in the relationships, that the relationships in your life, that's what makes your life important. You can have all the time in the world, but with no significant connections and strong relationships at times a little bit meaningless.
But maybe I maybe you don't mention that. And I. I didn't catch.
Yes. I think people have to be invested in each other. Yes, I. I agree. By the way, the way that the way that I'm looking at it is, it's like someone said, time is the constant so and is how you invest your time. So there's something about the attitude of how you come to that, how you use your time. So you want back to what I'm saying, because to use your time wisely or to use your time, well, you have had to learn and be cognizant of what it is that you want from time.
Yeah, you have to you have to bring something to the one. But given the. Time is the most set, is the scarcest resource. And given that I'm about to share my screen with the whole thing of the time, I get so whether you agree or not, I just want the time is there. Yeah, it's about how we use our time. But time is the thing that all of us is ticking. And I have to find a way of using this sharing this screen.
Now I've done it. OK, so. I just want to share this because I think it's something that we don't often think about that. The average life is, I think is seventy nine years and something, so if you if you look at the life of. But I haven't got the hours yet, but it's something like seventy nine years and something we spend. Thirty three years in bed and asleep, so it's like getting to sleep, lightning, that kind of stuff.
Thirteen years at work, eleven years, four months in onscreen, time to TV and finds four years, six on eating holidays, exercise, romance. Socializing school. But essentially, we basically left with about eight hours to mum's. When you've taken out all of those things of discretionary, turn off of screens and socializing and stuff like that, it's discretionary. But when if you say that a third of our time is going to be sweeping, a third of our time is going to be working.
It's going to be another couple of hours of eating, preparing, shopping, all of those things, we don't actually have that much time. And so what we bring to that time, how how well we make use of that time, which I think is what in Jena Ali and Sandra were saying, it's about intelligent use of our time. But to me, that's really shocking. Of. How much on? Sorry, Rob, I would beg to differ that we don't do these things in isolation.
We multitask a lot. Eating and romance and socializing oftentimes go together. We eat and we are romancing and we are socializing. So sometimes we are overlapping. So I take your point. Yes, time is a constraint. But I do think that we do a number of those things not in isolation, but they are together. And so we do make up some of that deficit that might seem to be so glaring in that in your in the table.
And I think it comes down to a matter of the priorities that we place on each of those things. And if we if we can understand their importance, maybe that is the first step in reorganizing how we how we spend each day and how we spend our time with our families and maybe now post covid where people realize how they want to stay home with their families even while they're working, and maybe develop a hybrid type of work where they can get more time to spend with their families because they do realize that there is a deficit.
Maybe that's in recognition of what you're saying.
OK. I think the next part is. Within a relationship. Then we're in a relationship. Relationships are difficult, and Howard Markman talks about his three basic fights, that is the fight for respect and recognition, care and control spectrum recognition, care, control and. Can concern control and power and control, so respect, recognition, care and care and control, health care and concern, power and control. In your relationships. Thinking back. When have you argued?
For something other than love. All when is your partner? So when did you want respect more than to be loved? When did you want security more than. More than Harmonie, all of those kind of things. Do you think it's worth going into breakouts we run in like he wants to break out to talk about lack? Hands out if you do. OK, so I think the general consensus is you stay here. OK, so I think that's really the last aspect to talk about is what do we put in front of what we really want?
Does that make sense in terms of what I'm talking about? But why would we put something in front of what we really want, is it because of insecurities? Well, it's because of the Margarette decision that we're making in the moment. Being right is more important than how many lives being right.
And it's like a childhood dream where you because when we argue it's not really arguing about the toothpaste or the clothes on the floor, it's arguing about something that's triggered us usually from a childhood thing. I think some. I heard a story from someone the other day where there was an interview with the 90 year old couple and they were asked what it was that kept him together, and they said that I just simply choose to love my partner every day. And in the same way, even in the human experience, whether we choose to go around happy or sad or these old, small internal choices, I think we use the key word that we choose.
We can become triggered or we move into a state or we react without necessarily thinking or being conscious. But that 90 year old couple, God knows what that the love life was like. But the point was, is that they made a conscious effort, a conscious choice. So what I'm trying to say is that when you do see the other person's underpants in the bathroom floor, choose to love them, even though you hate and you have to pick it up.
And it's annoying and it's quite trumpy. Love them still and choose that and not possibly just suggest you could be a way of working things. Yeah, it's interesting is one of the qualities of couples that lost that really have happy relationships is positive delusions that they actually give their partner the qualities that they actually have. Anyone else got comments or yes, questions? Yes, you're talking about conflict, an argument, and you're saying that when you have conflict and argument, it's about being right.
But what I would propose is that conflict and argument are part of the stages of a relationship. So what you're doing is you're negotiating suspect. You're you're negotiating respect. You're negotiating can you're negotiating power and control. You're evolving your roles through that process. And when you look at couples that have got long term established loving relationships, they've been through that process and come out the other side. So they've they've worked out how to, you know, what their positions are, as it were, with all those things within that relationship.
And then they feel completely secure and safe to to let that go and have a full loving relationship without conflict, in other words, to make that 100 percent commitment. So there is an argument that relationships follow a pattern. And if you don't if you don't recognize that, that you can sabotage the relationship. So the pattern of a relationship is that you have the honeymoon stage and then you evolve into the conflict stage where you decide your positions and then it evolves from there into a partnership and then into, you know, a fully committed scenario.
But the the downfall that some people have is that they don't recognize the conflict stage as being a stage in the in the in the evolution of the relationship. And they fail at that point because they say, well, this isn't working out. This doesn't give me what I want. I'm not at the end goal. And so they they drop the whole thing. So what I'm saying is the conflict and the arguments are part of a can be part of the relationship and the relationship journey if it is done and talks about most couples drop out on stage three of the five stage relationship model.
What I what I'm really talking about, though, is that in the argument. So if you have a difference, talk about slaying the dragon. This is a necessary stage of how you have a lasting relationship, but. It's that argument is when you have because basically two people come to a relationship that's two different views and it's how do you bridge that gap? And so it's the attitude that you have in that. Conflict, all that difference and how do you if you if if both are fighting for this for their point or for fighting for their territory, then it just becomes a constant clash, John.
And talked about perpetual problems that 60, 60 percent of of relationship problems are perpetual. And it's the same arguments and. So it's really people have to come willing to transcend that, so it's not I'm right, go wrong or I'm right or whatever, but it's about how do you go beyond my vision, your vision to create the shared vision. Karl. Very sorry, Rob was left up from the OK. Anyone else? I think I think basically it goes back to, as in everyday life, live in trying not to let your ego take over its ego.
That takes over everything. And once you controlled your ego, you think you're winning. Yeah. Yeah. It's really about you know, that's what I'm talking about in terms of being right. It's like often times as a couple, we can be arguing about something really silly. And sometimes people you want the bad thing to happen so that you prove, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so the question is. What was the question? So the question is about when you when.
Couples are arguing, what is it like about the harmony and because you can't have a relationship by like some people try. So in terms of bridging that gap, so you've got that gap and some people try to sacrifice. And I say, well, if I if I give them this and if I give them this, they'll be happy with me and then they'll be nice to me. But all that happens there is you training someone that they're more important than you and you're training them to devalue you and you expect the right way if you compromise the nature of you get what you want and you both end up ultimately unsatisfied.
And so you end up like this is what you want this for, you want to compromise, you get this and then you compromise again and you get this debate so far from where they want to be, the relationship doesn't feel worthwhile. Eventually, one leaves. But the only way to really bridge that gap in a way that works is if you let go of what your old vision was and you create a new shared vision. And that means that you've got to rise up, just like Einstein said, that you can never solve a problem at the level that it presents.
So. So it's about what do we choose that gets in the way of love? So obviously is the one that comes to mind for me. I only go through and then. Yeah, it's big. What else? So I can't think of anything else of being right, because I think it's about the environment, one was raised because different environment defined lot differently. And the perfect example, I can think it's how me and my ex boyfriend broke up.
We broke up because he thought I was not jealous enough like that to most people to be ridiculous, because for him, he was expecting that if I finally talking with another woman, I should scream. I should. So I don't have that time. You're having a friendly conversation, but to him it meant that I did not love him enough to display myself loudly in public. So again, environmental factors and what you were brought up to believe is love.
We tend to influence how much relationship, what I'm actually going to bring in a relationship. And unless we are willing to learn the other person's culture, the other person's, but like we said, we compromise at the end of the day, we just end up in a loop which will result to us parting ways.
I guess that's why we brought up an important point is that we have different visions because we've had different childhoods, because we've had different expectations of what should be right. And I know for me that you grew up with in a family and you think everyone does this. This is how it all is. And then when you meet someone else and you get you see their household and the way that they live, you suddenly clash up against things that are different.
And I've seen some of the things in the shower. I haven't been a complete the but a lot of our differences are really about how we look, how what a word means to us. So I said earlier, John Gottman looked at what does money mean? And he stopped at one hundred different definitions because we're all quite lazy. This is something called the cognitive cognitive economy, principle of cognitive economy that we save time more thinking. So we use rules of thumb.
So people are driven by money, but no one's really driven by money because what is money? It's money only has any value that we share a belief that it's going to bring us something. And if the world stopped putting any value in money and only the cryptocurrency would have no value. So it's not money that we really want, but it's status. It's freedom, security, all of those things. So what I think we don't often recognize is that love means different things to different people, because when you think about, well, where did you learn more?
What did you learn when you when you're tiny and someone says, you know, like you small as a baby, it might be wind. And so we got happy. And from this this is how we learn language. So the word what we mean for happy is what someone said to us when we were making sense and picking up language, what we mean by respect, what we mean by care. All of these things are individual. And so we talk.
And so even so, this is where couples will initially get together and they'll go, yeah, but we have it. We have the same religion. And what I mean is that they're roughly the same probably similar intelligent, similar level of ambition and all of those kind of things. And they think that they've got the same vision. So in the same way that if I'm here from the U.K. and I'm going to say I'm going to fly to New York, we got OK, I'm going to say I'm going to New York as well.
But there's three or four different airports in New York. So as you get closer, there's quite a big difference. So we might have the same general attitudes about money, about what respect means about any of these things. But when we get the real specific details, we can be, look, we can be miles apart. And so it's about really clarifying what do we mean by that? And that means going beyond. It's not about money. What does money mean?
It's not about love. What is love me. So it's understanding the individual nature of what someone means. So, like one of the biggest books, relationship books is the Five Love Languages. And what it brought was the insight that some people like affection, some people like words of affirmation and all of these things. But that's still a big, broad picture. It has to be so much more refined in terms of understanding, partner. So thank you for waiting patiently.
So. Right. What type in our lives? I think it's a little issue behind. We try to compare the things we like to using all the time comparison. And we start to labeling defense this week about labeling defense lead. Try to bring back that emotion. I was in the time and we actually re experiencing the old things. When we should be in the pleasant so we're not really experiencing the new love or whatever, because we all think, oh, that was the last one in love, but actually that's maybe this life is completely different.
We should just more get into it and experience it that way. We feel so frustrated. Sometimes we say, oh, that's love, but that's not what it's like before. And we forget that even our emotion, it doesn't stay more than two minutes in the moment, so that's how it should be, everything just go with the flow. We think too much about how was and how will be. That's that's really interesting as well in that we talked before about people think that they know their partner.
Yeah, well, we've been together five years and you know what else is there now? I know that they like that, but that's people are always changing. And that's what happens when people don't change. That's when people get bored in the relationship. But people are always changing. But we assume because we knew them. Because we assume that what they said two years ago is still true, but it's always changing. And also, I think the girl we talked about, the three girls and meaning is kind of what you do later in life, but wealth and love and the fancy of wealth is that you win the lottery and never have to worry about money again.
Unoffensive love is that you meet the one you have the relationship and the relationships, but relationships never done. And it's not really about a relationship. It's about how you navigate relationships because every relationship is going to end, never ends. And therefore or a breakup, but it's always going to end. And it's so it's about how you navigate. OK, so I'm just going to pick up on this, so. If you feel that there's a lot of importance given to money.
Then I think you're missing the point I want to make the point I want to make is that in life. We start life with the resources that we have. And those resources, how we use those resources determines what we get. So ignorants Sandra and Janice talked about what they like, the state that they wanted, and it's really about how do you get that by the decisions that you make? And I'm not talking in terms of value money, but I'm saying that while love isn't a commodity, it's a currency.
And so a currency is something, a currency, something that we do. We do something in order to get a currency, everything that we do is because we feel we're going to get something, we feel we're going to feel happy, we feel we're going to feel like we were a good person. We feel like we're going to get respect from someone. We feel that we're going to get status. So all of those things are. What draw us and motivates us to do what we do and try to understand what currency is the U.S. currency is something that we give something in order to get something back.
Yeah. Okay. So. When we go to work, we go to work for money, so we give our time. For money, we give our energy for money. Now, if we. If we're going to if we're going to buy something for someone. It's giving money to show someone how much we care. Or or we give our time to show how much we care. So if you understand and you're like, really clear. Okay, so you who as a show of hands, who understand what I mean by helping me understand what I mean by Currentzis.
But so a currency is something. You you want to get soaked, for example, in a relationship. Often the currency is respect the currencies, feeling cared for, trading you giving something so you can get something like that.
Yeah, and it might not be like it's not it's not always directly that we wanting something. Sometimes it's that we want to feel like a good person. We want to be called. We want to do something for a partner because we, we we want to feel that love. But so it's about so the point I'm trying to make is you have to be really clear and clean about what you're getting as to why you do what you what you're doing.
So it's OK. So if you give to charity, right. So let's say a homeless person asks you for money. Now, if you give the money. Are you giving it because you look bad in front of the people you're around if you don't? Are you giving it because it makes you feel like you done something good for people? Or are you giving it? So that they can. They can eat tonight, so it must be a result, the result of a transaction, so it's a transactional outcome.
It's the motivation, yes. What are you motivated by? So if you're in an argument and you're motivated by respect, so respect is a big one, particularly for men. So when you look at why does a man leave a relationship 20 years and he's got kids, it's been perfectly happy for 20 years for someone 10, 15 years younger. He suddenly shows them attention. And the answer is that men will often leave a relationship they're perfectly happy for, because at home the wife and kids look at them and they, like you, just put out the trash and heard of that before.
And you're not going to look at someone in the same way as someone who's maybe a junior at work and looks up and you've got power and you seem to know how everything and and so they'll leave a relationship for a relationship to last like three months and then go, what did I do? Why does someone buy? APUSH. Instead of like a Ford, remember what the phone calls, but instead of an ordinary call because they want to feel like they made it.
So here's one, a designer clothes. So why does someone pay one hundred two hundred pound for a T-shirt? That's not much different from what you can get four to five times. Because the brand means that. They mean something. It shows that they have status. Why does every kid want Nike or whatever Adidas or whatever trendy trainers are? Because they feel like they're less of a person if they don't have The Sirico. I buy Nike because I think they look at what I was going to ask is that you touched on something earlier and I'm interested to know where it goes so I can learn from this.
So if you get into a dynamic whereby you're going out, you're paying for everything, you come out, you pay for food automatically, and that kind of causes and they will offer by way of things. Are you saying that that develops an imbalance or is problematic down the line? Yeah, because if you're not clean about it.
Because how do you feel when you paying? So good, I'm having a good time and I want them to feel good. OK, but there's an imbalance that. So somewhere that imbalance has to be that imbalance has to come out because and this is why I like the traditional thing is when men pay for dinner and then expect sex. So. Yeah, that the whole traditional role of the mankind, No one, most men feel resentful of that and.
What does it mean? But what does it mean if a man is always paying? Does it mean that he's less valuable? It's a good question. I mean, I would say it was a way of sort of chivalry showing interest, showing value in the person, it can scream desperation. They can scream that I don't have enough value. Here you go. I'm showing you like props to somebody who does buy a post for the same reasons. But it might from my point of view, it's not that's not the intentions to say I value your time and I want you to feel good.
OK, so what did you say? She's not paying for you. I don't know, so somewhere she has to show that value. OK. In the same way, if the woman is the only one that does the chores, why? So this is what I'm saying. Like, if you if your if you have different you like different tools, different attributes, different someone's pain, that has to be a balance. And if you're not clean and clear about, OK, I'm paying this.
What are you and is a lot of men is that they feel that they that's how they share their value, but then they have expectations. And so that lack of clarity and is therefore not being clean about it, if if a man like traditional, like traditionally the man goes out, the man is the breadwinner, the man who runs the home and all this kind of stuff. But then there's an expectation that he's in control. He has power.
And so men can use that as power to control a relationship. So anywhere where there's an imbalance. You've you've created some some inequality and some other currency. I think you're right, and I can see that I will say that the situation I've got in mind know they have said, oh, well, if you didn't think so quickly, I would pay. So there is a willingness. It's not like I just I can see my feet under the table.
But the other thing, the last thing I was just going to say for what you said there is how many relationships on balance, isn't there always a trade off of different things? And, you know, yeah, of course, the problem is when we're not clear and clean about what that trade off is. Yeah, if we know. And how would you feel if she didn't offer. I would start to sort of question whether she was self-centered or what her agenda and motives were, but then I'm also putting the shoe on the other foot, which is if somebody keeps buying stuff, what's their agenda?
What's their motive? So, yeah, I mean, I would feel really uncomfortable as the man that you want to be the provider.
So what does that mean, being provided? It means that my value is in the money. No, it means that ultimately the woman is the one that will give birth to your son or daughter. So you to balance things out. You can never give birth to a baby as a major provider.
I've got about an hour and a half of children and I don't want children at my age. So. Just one thing that might switch this a little bit as well, which is I know where my intentions are clear, is to buy my first wage packet. I spent my little brother to come to the cinema, to the swimming pool, to bowl and everything. And I didn't want or expect anything back. I just wanted him to smile and have a good time.
So, yeah, I know we talked about relationships and romance, which is a completely different thing, but still it's still the same. That's still the thing. Why do it? Why do we why do we invest so much? The children, number one, because we love them. Because we see that they like an extension of ourselves and. Really, what do we want? We want to be the hero to our child, like whatever we might want to be.
But the hero.
Yeah, exactly, because I've had cousins that I've taken care of and spent money on when they were babies and toddlers and small children. And obviously as small children and babies, they never said, please, thank you. You gave me anything. But I got satisfaction for me. That's what I'm saying. As a man, I think you should have some sort of satisfaction from being provided to a woman and that that itself should be a drive by, but that I think we have to be careful whenever we say should.
Well, because you obviously you're free to do whatever you want, but I'm talking fundamentally. But then that goes back to. I do think I do think most of our relationships and most of our complications with relationships come because we come from a patriarchal society and the whole basis of patriarchal society is that men have control, men have power. And so what then happens is in becoming the provider, you've got control and power and there's an imbalance. So how do you.
And it can be but somehow that power and control imbalance has to be rectified.
So you've got a bit philosophical, an abstract. I'm saying ultimately a man's a man and woman. As a woman, as a man, you've got something to give and a woman is receptive. It's really simple. So philosophical.
Well, I don't know if I were different because I think there should be more equality. And how much equality can there be when there's seven billion people on the planet and every single one of them was given birth to by a woman? As a man, you can never give birth to a baby, can you? No, no, I don't think necessarily equality in roles, but equality and you give equally a woman of your life.
I think we're conflating a number of things in the in the conversation, though, there is the initial meeting and getting to know someone that the initial song and dance and then there is a settled relationship where responsibilities are being shared. And I think there's a difference in how we approach the issue of money in in those in both scenarios, a fellow might invite a girl out and he may want to impress her. One may use the issue of money to pay for everything to show how powerful and how wealthy he is.
In other words, look at me. I am I'm a catch, you know, so all of those different things are playing out there. Um, a young lady may not have much money and she may like the gentleman, but she can't afford to pay. Who knows? But in a settled relationship, I think the issue of how things work out in terms of sharing bills is is going to be built around each individual's ability to pay, but also what kind of structure they're building.
I for example, I had a job where in part of my salary package was two two tickets to travel to anywhere in North America, South America or the Caribbean, which meant that my husband and I could take an annual holiday to any country in South America, Central America and North America. And that was my contribution. And we both agreed that, OK, then you you will find the spending money because I'm giving the tickets, the airline tickets for the trip, because that was part of my package.
And so we shared. But that's not the kind of conversation that would come up in a new in a new relationship necessarily.
And I just I think some people expect the traditional role and find it very uncomfortable to speak about matters like that. I mean, the man does this and the woman is is the receiver. And then, as Stephen pointed out, you may have another female who is adamant that she's not taking anything from you know, she's not going to be subservient or she's not going to be beholden to and she's going to have her full rights. So she has to pay 50 percent of everything.
And I think we are moving along a continuum. It's context specific.
If we're so sorry, if we're talking about love and relationships, surely money is and materialism, which is basically what we're talking about really is materialism status. Those are the factors. If you if you take it back historically or you take it back to a primitive society where you have hunter gatherers, you have people fishing, and then you bring back the food or you grow that food, money doesn't come into it. It's so relationship and money should not be tied together in the same way in the way that it seems to be debated.
It's like, yes, it does seem to be something that people value. And somehow it's like, well, if I can get somebody to spend money on me, then that indicates I've got some that they love me. Or really what it indicates is that they have some control over the and that's what it's about. It's about fighting for control. It's and the idea that you have to pay a woman for an unborn baby or a future baby, that's just well, that's just different.
But unfortunately, relationships break up because in many instances, money is affecting relationships, breaking up it. Things you have to pay for. Baby babies aren't free. You think about the word labor when you spend 10 hours in labor in excruciating pain, 30 percent of women used to die giving birth. Do you think that's free? I think the key is that what we what we have now is we have every right, everything is available. And I think what's really important is that individually we have our own ideas of what we want.
And every relationship is unique because it has two unique people. And even the person that's how you may be in one relationship might be completely different in another because the other person had something else in you. So for me, it's I don't think there is a relationship structure. I think it's about what you believe, what you really want and what your partner and you agree. And so that that comes down to whatever you believe in. Whatever you value, and I don't think there is a right in the room, because I think, yes, I think there are differences between men and women and women are always going to be the ones to bring to the table.
But some women. Don't want to stay at home and be a housewife, some women enjoy the career, some women are far more competent and can have great earning power and have get more satisfaction from their career. And equally, some can be happy and will get more joy from from being from staying at home and being a mom. And I think traditionally we've had women have been stuck in roles that many women weren't suited to. And then there's been a move where lots of women feel under pressure to have it all and feel like they have to be at work and have to be supermom.
And they have to do this, I think is really about the point of tonight is about it's about what you value. But it's just about being super honest, super transparent, clear about what do you value, what do you want? And why are you doing what you do, because what gets messy is when people do something. For an outcome, so someone does something so that they can be so, for example, a man buys a president so that he's the hero to his partner, and then when he doesn't get that, there's a resentment.
And the resentment is because he had expectations he was looking for a currency that he didn't get. Now, when you and so most people don't really think about these currencies, it's quite provocative and challenging to think about it because it's different. So so, yeah, Ali said in a chat. Exactly. So a woman's looking at it from one point of view and not even every woman, even in same sex relationships. People are individual and they have a different idea.
And so someone who's been busy and they have been inundated and they've had all this going on and I suddenly get someone to come home like they're already in a bad mood. They get flowers or something and they're not receptive to it. Whereas the other person is like, well, look, I spent this much money, I spent this much, I spent this long queue in India. And so you've got you've now got a problem because whether or not it's not of Overstock or whatever, they just got thank you.
And then but there's a simmering resentment and relationships break because of these resentments, because of unresolved things. And most of the time is because they never really understood. What they were, because they were talking in two different currencies because they were like, I want to respect for this, I want to be valued for this, and someone else's is paramount. You did it. You went and you bought something from our shared account. What did you really do?
I spent all day working it. So it's about being super clear what you want and super clear and clean, because when that that level of communication is what helps you understand each other. I think the whole discussion is about like love is a feeling and love requires conscious effort. And love is as love does. While long term relationship, if people said settle for like long term relationship, but without love, then the cheapest ways to go to Thailand and get a young wife, and you keep it for a very low cost and you to pretend that it's like a relationship and that will work.
So it's like love is expensive because it requires everyday effort. Yes, more than money. Yeah, and that's that's that's the point, is that. I think we can mostly agree that the time is more valuable than money because with the right resources, you can always make money, you can have a make more time, and it's the ability to deal with intolerance, to be compassionate. All of those things that you like will pay to have our car cleaned because we don't want the hassle.
And most people are paying with their relationships because they don't want the hassle of the relationship. They don't want to get the compassion, the empathy, all of that thing.
Sandra, but also to add to the that the whole issue of the value of money, if I am the provider of the money I may have in my head, that the money is worth X and Y and Z, but the other party on the other side does not have the equivalent on understanding and acceptance that it is. That's what it is worth. So, for example, a man who thinks that because I am the breadwinner and I provide the money, it means that I cannot do the dishes, I will not babysit.
I nothing is my responsibility because I provide the money. We party has another totally different understanding as to the value of the money in the entire equation, because it also devalues what they are doing.
Yeah, thank you for bringing that up, because the whole point of currencies is like if you deal with foreign currency, just that you have an exchange rate. And when you're not clear about what the currency is, there's no exchange rate, so being clear about underneath this, this is what I, I, I value and this is what I expect. Then there is some talk about what is that worth and what's the trade off. And that's how you get the agreement.
Yeah, I suppose just speaking personally and frankly, I think I've realized the cards I'm looking for is just the nice and the sweet to me, really. I don't have anything deeper, more contrived, not just sort of building on this. You said something really key, which it bypassed very quickly, but stuck with me, which is. Some of these currencies and exchanges are pseudo tokens for actual related and just from my own experience, the sometimes talking about your deepest past, your deepest fears, your deepest feelings is more vulnerable than sleeping with somebody to exactly be more painful, more embarrassing and more fear of rejection than, if you like, probably went to bed a bit too quick kind of thing.
And someone gets triggered or scared and ghosting might happen on either side. So, yeah, that's the actual writing is super hard. And I can see now quite clearly that the money, the spending, the seducing, the compliments, the the romanticism is all delaying and almost kind of buying time for when you sit down and you look into that person's eyes and you actually start talking about something real. Yeah, connection is built on you being you getting to the core of who you are and the core of who they are.
Because if you don't like so many people that then the lines or the text to say something like this, to create a response and that can impress someone, but it doesn't build connection. And the only thing ultimately that's going to be a connection is the truth of who you are. And again, the unwillingness to be vulnerable is where the connection closes, and that's the level at which the relationship will fail because the connection will fell to the point where you're not willing to connect any further in terms of connecting by showing someone who you are and letting someone in is the point where the connection of the relationship will break.
And depending on the expectations and what the other side wants, that's often the point, that's really the dynamic that breaks the relationship can seem to be something else. But that's where the connection, because I would go with distance and we've lost the spark and all of those kind of things.
A little ironic that we are all ultimately looking for a connection to defend or protect ourselves recorded. And we don't show one side, don't get the connection. Exactly, because the story is that the connection happens because of the magic of this this one. But the connection doesn't happen. The connection happens when you open yourself up. But the barrier to love is then the unwillingness to be that vulnerable young, the shame and fear of betrayal and lack of trust.
And all of those things are what stop us from having left. What? Well, I, I think you're talking about is is transactions currency, but that only relates to some aspects of the idea of love language. So some elements of love language require currency. Others require time. Others require thought.
I just stop you there, Stephen. But time is a currency. No, no, no. What I'm saying is money isn't the only aspect. That's what I'm getting at in terms of people's love language. The currency isn't just money, it's other things. You're talking about transactions, I think. And what you're talking about is also communicating the value of the transactions. So I think it's kind of a well known thing that women count things as one.
So, you know, you've bought them a diamond ring. That's one thing. But, hey, I made you dinner and I did this and I did that and I did the other. Whereas guys keep things in financial terms because it represents the time that they spent earning that money. And what also needs to be remembered is the time, the money that you earn isn't just the money that you're given, it's how much you can actually spend. So for every ten pounds you're given, nine percent of that is spent on things you don't want to spend it on.
Only one pound of it may be is what you can actually spend it on. So I think what you're saying is that it's about communicating the value of the transactions in the relationship. So you both understand what you think you're giving and what they and what they think they're giving and trying to make sure that both recognize the value of the transaction and that you recognize that it's the value to them as well. Is that is that what you're trying to get at?
So ultimately, it's got nothing to do with money. It's got nothing to do with currency. It's got to do with feelings, but. What we're doing in terms of building that love and getting to that state is really about our interactions and our interactions. Yes, our transactions. But transaction transaction seems cold and we're not doing micro transactions in order to get this ultimate thing, but it's a way of thinking about it because it is because when we're making decisions, those are transactions.
And it's not like he's so calculated. But, yes, it is. It's about currency. And we have to agree on what we're doing. And it's about it's not about so much that I'm going to give this much so that I get this much. But it's about having clarity over what you're doing so that you navigate the different points. Because what this is really about is if you don't know what the currencies are and you don't know yourself what the currency is you're giving, and that's where you get resemblance.
So it's not so much about it's about understanding really what you really want. What do we really want a relationship for and. When you have that clarity of what you're looking for, like what's important to you in a relationship, is it being supported? Is it feeling safe? Is it being seen? Is it getting your needs satisfied? Is it how you grow and building something greater than you can have on your own? And then it's understanding that there's micro decisions every minute of the day, and those decisions are that your.
You when when you feel an internal conflict that you feel resentful or you feel like you want to prove you right. Do you choose that over finding harmony? Are you talking about. Are you talking about being clear on what you want so that you want to invest your time, effort and energy into things that are going to give you a return on your investment so that you get your wants and needs met? Well, it's about. When you choose a partner.
What's really important, morning, she's in the bathroom, she's in the relationship. And is the relationship between getting your needs met, so, OK, so really our relationship is less important in connection? Can't say because what we're really looking for is connection, belonging, love. And the relationship is a vehicle so much people sacrificing themselves for the relationship. And what they've done is they made the relationship bigger than that, and this is the same way that people give their lives for a cause, people give their life for their country.
People give their life for an organization. But all of those things that really shed agreements that we agree on, the idea of a nation, of a nation, we agree in an organization. So. In a relationship, a relationship is the space between two people. What really matters is the individual's. And the state of the relationship is a reflection of the state of the individuals, if it enhances their life and makes them stronger and. More enjoyable life, better they stay in a relationship when it takes from their life and it makes them feel worse, they leave the relationship.
So. We get into a relationship so that enhances our life. If now what most people do is they choose a partner based on someone who's found that they've got a dating and someone who takes the boxes that they think they want, and in five or 10 years later, they're unhappy in a relationship, they say, well, I can't ever get anything, you know, doesn't have a communique, doesn't respect me, doesn't do any of these things.
And so often it's because they've chosen someone that. Wasn't capable of giving them a relationship that they needed. Does that make sense? So so you have to in choosing the partner, you're choosing someone like someone else as you choose someone whose problems you can live with. So you're choosing someone that can have you can have the relationship that you want. And I'm not saying that you should go. And this is what I want. But you have to know what works for you in terms of all of us can be in environments that don't work for us.
We a work somewhere probably where we really didn't fit. And we just it made us feel bad, may feel stupid, and we just didn't fit in with the culture. And then we've all been somewhere else where everything clicked and we liked being there. We like the people. So where we thrive is in the right kind of environment with the right kind of people in the right context. And if you don't have that in the relationship. Then the relationship is going to you're going to be dissatisfied in it, and if you aren't happy, there's only so long you last in the relationship.
And if you're unhappy, you're going to drag the other person and even relationships going to be unsatisfying or it's going to break. So you have to know you and you have to know that you you are capable of having the right of giving the relationship that they need as well. So. So it's not about I I'm going to do this, this, this and this and this to get what I want, but it's in order. To support the other person.
So, so so you need to have a relationship where you give to the relationship because you're not giving to them, but you're giving to strengthening the relationship. And if you both give to the relationship, the relationship becomes richer and they become stronger. What's the distinction between giving to the relationship and giving to the individual? OK, so a lot of people give to a relationship with someone that's never going to reciprocate, that doesn't care. And so they give them to the person.
Does that make sense when people lose themselves in a relationship because they sacrificed everything to make someone else happy to find it, they never really valued them anyway? Does that make sense? So there you are, giving to the past where you give in to the relationship is. You'll share out with integrity. You're willing to be vulnerable. You're respectful and I respect I mean, that you have an appreciation and understanding, you're curious, human understanding of a person and appreciating the.
And you kind. And so all of those things make you feel better about yourself, because if you don't do any of those things, when you look in the mirror every time you know that, you know, you're not being the person that you really feel that you want to be. So you feel guilt because you feel that guilt. You feel worse about yourself. And that is going to mean them projecting onto the other person. So all of those things you can give infinitely so you're never going to get worn out of being kind.
You're never going to get worn out of feeling like you're living up to the promises that you might. And you're never going to get worn out by being curious and interested and appreciative of someone else. So when we get worn out, it's because we give currencies of something that we feel are finite, because we're placating someone. We sacrificing for someone which is making us less and then more in our perception.
It's another way of saying that you're not giving to the person that you're giving to the relationship, which is feeding you enough what you're giving in a way that means that you get in your needs and wants in return because ultimate well, ultimately, what we really want is it's really about Maslow's hierarchy. And really what we want is.
Self actualization to be the best self that we can be. And. Like in Tantra, I think torture is really good. Philosophy, so the idea of a tantric relationship is that you hold the other person as. This is highly lovable being. And I know obviously you don't do it with just anyone, but you has to be someone worthy of that. And it fits in with the research about positive delusions. And so when you have that, OK, so your intelligence, your your job is to always be loving towards that person, to always think loving, be loving.
And the idea is that once you reach that state. You can then do that for everyone and it becomes a wise thing. And so the relationship is. Something to focus on. For you to be the most loving being that you can be. And so ultimately, you're not giving to the relationship or even to the other person, but you're reaching your potential of what you can be. So this is like, you know, like but a role is that to all of those kind of spiritual journeys, that's like the ultimate aim of that.
But I have been in love with love. Well, really, I think what do we really want from love? Hmm. I asked this question and some of the answers to things like equality. No respect, kindness. Yeah, OK, so if you were in the market hierarchically. What order would they go in? So equality of respect. For me is kindness that's just just being kind where you come by. Why? Because I think. In many ways, much is about timing and delivery.
So whether it's because you want to break up with someone, whether you made a mistake or whatever it is, the way that you communicate, that is important. And actually, as long as there's understanding and communication, then there shouldn't be anything that you can't talk about. So having the kindness to be able to express things and perhaps in loving, tactile way without diluting it too much means that there's a chance for success longer term because the communication and also life's difficult enough without your own partner giving you grief.
So that's OK. So what we get into now is this point where the currency is a tool. But. There's a point beyond when you're not, because I think ultimately what you when you reach that level is really about you want to feel love. And the way that you might feel love is no, we want other people to love us. By the way, the most sure, most most secure way is for us to love. So ultimately, we want to feel.
We want to be loved and love, and part of it is because love is is really like happiness, like the pink. And so the currencies are what you do to reach that state. But suppose your idea of what love is, as Karl was mentioning, is set his criteria and the person who is expecting the love from or to show you the love is a different version of what love really is because we are talking about ourselves. But if the two versions of love don't coincide, there is a gap in the middle that does not have harmony.
Yeah, yeah. That's that's why college is really important. Currencies are a way of navigating it. So ultimately it's about what we want to feel, wasn't it. Can agree on that or do we agree on that? So ultimately, we all want to get to that state and really that's not about anyone else. But we we look externally, and so we the extend well is it stimulates how we feel. But ultimately, it's about training and developing that state.
So this is really philosophical and idealistic, but ultimately, so there's the currencies are a way of mediating, a tool of understanding because people are talking about love. But really love is, I think, when we really boil down.
So like the seven types of love the Greeks talked about. And we're talking about like erotic love, which is the romantic love, this ludic love, which is the gameplay and love is. All of these different types, but they're really. The key one is the Capek, which is unconditional and the unconditional is not about someone else. It's about us. And. So. When when I've done research from the doctor's office, they have to their job because they couldn't find enough instances, they couldn't find anyone to maintain the people for an instance, for walk for a period of time, but not consistently.
So. So an announcement. So that level is it stops being transactional. It was being about currencies, if that makes sense. Can I can I ask what stage I mean, because I believe you're talking about is is communication negotiation because you can see it in those terms and you have to have that common understanding, that common goal. At what stage did did you feel or do you feel that that that you you had that discussion? Is that early in the relationship or is that when you're in a in the settled state or do you want to know what I'm saying?
Or was it that you came to that together and you both knew where you were going? And it was like, yeah, this is great, we're going to we're going to do this? That's really about vulnerability. It's about because what that's really about. Because the communication. So I don't know, negotiation is the right word, I wouldn't it's not a word I would use, but communication is how you share it. So communication is the vehicle.
But. It's really about vulnerability. Because you can communicate and the problem most people have with communication isn't that they don't know what to say, is that they're scared to say the truth. So you have that you have that discussion when you willing to be vulnerable enough. But also, the communication needs to be in sync with the actions. Yeah. Why are we so scared? I think we're really scared because. It's something that we deeply want is something that we deeply crave, is biologically encoded in us.
And there's also. A conditioning to all of us from childhood that we're not good enough. And I think one of the big problems in relationships is the anxiety. That we won't ever make it work, that we no one will ever find this lovable. So. I think when I think of. Like what our society does, it's it's basically. A control thing, and it's a bit like the emperor's new clothes, that there's all these things that.
That makes sense, but you'll Tuaolo, if you if you're the one, say it, because we we grow up in a society that's already built, that's been moving without us. And childhood is a time when we're trained in the system so that school is training us to be good workers. It's not developing us to be good humans. And. So when we talked about the thing, free rebellion, I've been here a while, it's really the thing for rebellion.
This is my idea that. The problems that we have are really about. Dogma that we've been told something that isn't true, ignorance that we don't know and about drama, about our emotions and we're told our emotional reactions are appropriate. We shouldn't feel them. We shouldn't be like that. And therefore, we. Scared, We are scared to show our emotions. And we're scared of of judgment. And ultimately, I think the fear is rejection and because and I think that's biologically entirely because rejection means you're going to die, because if we are a pack animal and it's very hard to survive without the pack.
I don't know if anyone else has got any more insight on it, and I I'm I'm thinking that what you're talking about in terms of is kind of a higher form of love, if you like, rather than just direct sexual interaction and that we don't even have an awareness of it. It's not something that makes you say that we we are taught or that we we understand or realize that that's a goal that we should be looking to achieve. And and the barriers to that is that the is the is the is the misunderstandings and confusions of, uh, of the idea of people getting what they want because it's completely contrary to getting what you want in those terms.
I do this. You do that. It's it's about reaching in an idealized state together. That that's my interpretation of what you're saying. And not only not only do we not understand it, we don't we don't have that awareness. We've never experienced it. We may mean that. So as children, as you say, as children, we are brought up by our parents to be controlled. So we can't have kids that are running around doing whatever they want and parents have.
Have the demands of a busy life, a stressful existence, but they don't necessarily have the opportunity to give the children that level of love that they can then take into adulthood. So I think there's quite a lot of complexity in that and the reasons why we don't see it. So what you're doing is quite a revelation in the sense, because it's quite, quite wonderful, quite wonderful idea and quite different. So, yes, there's different levels of love and that's what we talk about.
Exactly. Love is that most people are never going to reach that. But you don't need to reach that to have a great relationship, you know, but it's knowing what the journey is like. What's better, what's worse when you have that levels? Then you have an awareness of how to make things better and you have an awareness of what to do when things aren't there. And I said, well. OK, so we've run over again, but thank you, everyone.
It's been an interesting and enlightening discussion. So what I'd like to do before we close off is everyone who's comfortable with it. If you just give a minute summary of your thoughts or insights or what you how you felt feeling in terms of this idea of what we talked about, of of playing the game of love and currencies. So anything you can share to help anyone else. Choose, choose happiness and love in every moment with the person that you wish to spend more time with and you can make a conscious, concerted effort to do that, and that be your primary focus and goal and the context that surrounds you being with the person aside from everything else that day in, day out is year is choosing love to show.
She's. Rob, can I ask what percentage of the people reach the stage of giving a guy and a good laugh?
Well, whenever I've done research, they had to abandon that because they can find people consistently, not like they found the audience instance. But not generally, not in general research.
OK, thank you. You can't expect to get more than you're willing to give, and you have to be willing to put in the effort, but at the same time, you need to understand yourself. You need to know what are the. Oh, dear. Bill and Melinda Gates announced divorce after 27 years. OK, that just came up, I think. So there you go. That's what we're talking about. That's what we've been talking about, isn't it?
Right. And what is not a factor of more than enough? There you go. Yeah, exactly. You've got to be you've got to understand yourself and really understand that the things that are most important to you. OK. S.O.S. Compromise. And if you don't like it, just seat. Don't argue. Just say that's not for you. I think that we all have different currencies and we use them at different times, certainly so being aware of what we're using and how we use it and what we're expecting return, it's going to be key to moving everything forward.
But I agree. I agree with that. But I think I think we all do. I think I think I think Stephen earlier used the word transaction. And that's the that's the word that's been going through my mind throughout the whole discussion. Is that what we're talking about? Is a transaction or transactions that all relationships in our lives, we talk about the workplace and we give out like and we give our skills and get something back. And all of these things are transactions.
And I agree with Sam about currency. And we all have different currencies and it's about finding the synergy. Between ourselves and in those currencies and those transactions, because if you don't have if you don't have that synergy. You don't have the basis for the relationship. Can I just clarify what you meant when you said the difference between giving to the person given to the relationship? Are you saying that when we give to the relationship, what we're doing is we're focusing on getting our wants and needs met in that relationship as opposed to just giving to the person and not getting the wants and needs met?
And that's what the term currency comes in, because you're giving something in, getting something in return. But they also give in and getting something in return.
Yeah, it's to do with Reagan. About the synergy is to do with. The situation where. So you can give it to someone who's never going to give back and you can give and give and give, and they'll just take. You. So it's giving. It's giving it's not given to the person, so like sacrifice is the idea that you give to the person and then like, you know, so it's not given to the person in that sense.
It's giving because. You have to get the foundations, you know, the person like you committed to, the person you know that committed to you. So. It's so you've entered in that relationship, and so there becomes a point where you're not giving to them, but you're giving to the relationship. So when you're in a relationship. There's a. Then like it changes the dynamic, you're no longer doing something like if there's someone at work and they're feeling down and you make them a cake and you make them happy so that you make them happy, you give them to the person.
So in a relationship when you do that. It's because you have the foundations of the relationship and so what you're doing is you're building relationship capital. So you're strengthening the relationship, so sometimes you're giving to them because. All of us had ups and downs and sometimes your weaker you're more in need. And so I'm going to give to you, but knowing that one day when you need to be supported, that because of the strength of the relationship, they'll be there for you.
Does that make sense? Yes, when the word commitment. Does that mean that they have invested or they are invested in their time, effort, energy? OK, so if you give me if you give to the person. You make the person stronger, you make the person feel better. The person gets value, but you don't get anything back. But when you're in that kind of a relationship, so so if you give money to a homeless person, you help the homeless person and you feel better for having given them something.
When you give to someone who's a friend or partner what there's a there's an understanding that you're giving because they would give it to you. And so you're strengthening that connection. Does that make more sense? I'm having trouble, and that doesn't make sense.
I mean, realistically, all relationships would be some symbiotic, which is to say that it's a friendship or work or a romantic relationship. Realistically be giving something back because in all the scenarios you meet, your needs to be met. Yeah. So. So when you give when you give to the relationship, it strengthens them but also strengthens you because the relationship is one of the resources that you have. So what you're really giving to is not necessarily in person, but to strengthening the relationship.
So it strengthens the resources that both of you have. So is the idea of the synergy that individually you could do whatever you do, that together with the support and the creativity that you can have, no freedom that you can have, you can do more as a pair than individually, which is the basis of relationships in the agricultural age, which became like that whole structure. Like Steven talked earlier about Hunter-Gatherer, relationships were 50 50. There was equality because the man brought home to me, but that was only 50 percent of the male as the woman brought home the fruit picking and nuts and stuff.
So there was 50 50. The change in relationship structure Handfish talks about came about because of the plow, because there needs to be two to run a farm, which is why no one could leave the relationship because it was an economic necessity. So I can't remember how it started. But yes, basically the synergy of that relationship structure provides economic strength. But when you do it emotionally, it provides emotional strength and satisfaction. OK, anyone else with closing thoughts, um, I was, um, I found this to be a really good session and quite a revelation.
And I think that you're talking when you're talking about higher love, it's a wonderful idea. And I have met people who are on that journey. And it strikes me as something like enlightenment or mutual enlightenment or instead of self actualization, you have having mutual actualization where you becoming the best people that you can individually and the best couple that you can together. And and by doing so, you're you're reinforcing each other. So it's a it's a wonderful idea.
And it's it's something that we probably all ought to have that understanding, because if we work towards that as a goal, instead of saying, well, what can I get out of relationship? This is what I want, what's the least I have to give to get that, then? I think that that the world would be a better place, in my view. Yeah. And the reason Beijing is so difficult is or so unsatisfying is because this is a marketplace where everyone's out for what they want, disregarding other people.
So, yeah, there's there's the two scales and it's aspirational. But if you know where you're heading, then you have no idea anyone else you haven't heard from yet who wants to share.
I was going to say, I guess after listening, it's really trying to find those relationships that are going to bring out the best parts of you. Your your currencies are in alignment, what you're willing to give and what you want to receive a kind of matching up and then I guess be present and enjoy it. Choose wisely when to work through the issues and when it's time to go like it doesn't have to last forever. You don't have to think about, oh, I can only invest this much if it's lasting forever.
It's like maybe don't. Don't go back to that and just enjoy it as what it for what it is at that time. Yeah. And Keith. Everyone knows that everyone, though, I think everyone said, OK, thank you, everyone, thank you for your discussion, insights. And next week, we have sex sinners and slut shaming. And the week after we're going to have I am going to be doing a weeklong five day get relationship clarity challenge, so is going to be the week off is going to be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
So be patient that same day anyway, next week. Hope to see you. Have a good week. Thank you, Wolf.
Thank you, everybody. Why is everybody I mean, you all have a good week. Rob, thanks very much. Appreciate it. Thanks. Thank you.